I think you missed part about him being vomited up on their shore. A man that came out of a fish. The second part sounds more like it.
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Apokatastasis in the early church
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Here's my take.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,
to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Ephesians 4:8-10 This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead,
so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged,
they might live in the spirit as God does.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
This is a hard passage, but you err in your interpretation.
"Imprisoned spirits" here are not souls or men, they are the fallen angels whom He imprisoned in Tartarus during the time of Noah.
You err again. He descended from Heaven, then ascended back into Heaven.
Paul alludes to (Psalms 68:18) as a prediction of the ascension of Christ into heaven and giving spiritual gifts as we see in the following verse: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, Ephesians. 4:11
Christ "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1Peter 3:19).
>>>This was clearly stated to have happened during the time of Noah. "Spirits" are the fallen angels, whom God (Holy Spirit) preached to them before He sent them to Tartarus (a prison, "Abyss", "Bottomless Pit" in the depths of Hades.
This was an allusion to the pre-carnate Christ who spoke to ALL since the beginning by the Holy Spirit.
Led Captivity captive?
In Ephesians 4:8, captivity means slavery ... to Christ.The new birth is enslavement to Christ when he releases us from enslavement to sin (Romans 6:6,16-18).
A simple way to look at it is
Jesus Leads His Church
This leadership of Christ includes the work Christ has done through the Holy Spirit.
Your view is again skewed. Context!!!The gospel was proclaimed to everyone. The living and dead will be judged.
The dead , who "walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. (vs. 3-5)
Two groups here on Judgment Day, the living in Christ and the dead.
You are proof texting. This is rule, a no no. Context! You can't just pick out isolated dcriptures, string them together to form a doctrine. This is your foundation of Universalism? It's severely flawed.
>>The chapter is talking about those in Christ: some are weak, some eat vegetables only, some revere certain days ... it's saying allow and respect eachother's differences, but everyone unto the Lord.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s... [now read verse 9.]
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You can't be serious. (yet it appears you are)
A "carnal" rule? - LOL
I think you mean "cardinal". And you do it too.
Just because we disagree doesn't prove that I am in error.
That saw cuts both ways. Are you claiming not to do that?
That doesn't nullify verse nine.
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Jesus was alive in the Spirit all the time he was preaching his message to men 2000 years ago. It was the men to whom he preached who were dead, imprisoned in sin and the ways of sin. We also are or have been imprisoned in sin and the ways of sin until and if we have received what Jesus brought.
| Joh 10:10 | The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. |
| 2:7 | He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. |
| Joh 3:13 | And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. |
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the spelling correction, actually my computer assumes these words I don't want - I have keep after her about that.
Well, we disagree and there is no resolve here ... so take care.
Jesus' "preaching" to the fallen angels followed his resurrection. The message was about his victory in dying faithfully, providing the means of salvation to humans, and gaining his right to kingship.
1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’
1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’
That claim and its "proof-text" are rather insubstantial. IMHO
Where was Jesus for the three days BEFORE his resurrection?
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
Answer: the realm of the dead
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous,
to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah
while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
1 Peter 4:6 NRSV
For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that,
though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
/
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
So... Jonah was swallowed by that "great fish" in the Mediterranean, and re-gurgitated on the shores of the Euphrates River.
Those two bodies of water don't connect.
Jesus was nowhere during the three days he was dead.
The Scriptures say
1) his body was in the tomb (Acts 13:35-37)
2) his soul was in Hades (Acts 2:24,27)
3) his spirit was in the hands of God (Luke 23:46)
...and yet there was no living Jesus anywhere since "dead" is the opposite of "alive," and Jesus himself says that he was dead:
Rev. 1:17, 18
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am (...) the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of [Hades]".
The Scriptures say
1) his body was in the tomb (Acts 13:35-37)
2) his soul was in Hades (Acts 2:24,27)
3) his spirit was in the hands of God (Luke 23:46)
...and yet there was no living Jesus anywhere since "dead" is the opposite of "alive," and Jesus himself says that he was dead:
Rev. 1:17, 18
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am (...) the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of [Hades]".
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Say what? - LOLSo... Jonah was swallowed by that "great fish" in the Mediterranean, and re-gurgitated on the shores of the Euphrates River.
Those two bodies of water don't connect.
How did you arrive at that strange comment?
And... Jesus was not buried in the ground. He was laid in an ABOVE ground tomb.
He rose from the Grave, as in Sheol. (also known as The Grave, the realm of the dead)
The realm of the dead (Sheol) being in the heart of the earth. As I understand it.
Matthew 12:40 NIV
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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That sounds like THREE places, not NO place.
Discussions about life and death can get tricky sometimes. (this is one of those times) - LOL
What do you make of this?
Luke 20:38 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
Mark 12:27 NIV
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”
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I understand a living person as all of these united: body and energy (spirit). The soul is the living being itself.
Gen. 2:7 And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust (the body itself) from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person (literally: living soul).
A body is not a living being, and there is not any other alive being inside any human. When Jesus the human died, he was dead. All the parts that make him a living being separated, and at that moment he stopped being alive and became dead; no part of him could live separately. That's why he needed to be resurrected to come back to life.
Gen. 2:7 And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust (the body itself) from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person (literally: living soul).
A body is not a living being, and there is not any other alive being inside any human. When Jesus the human died, he was dead. All the parts that make him a living being separated, and at that moment he stopped being alive and became dead; no part of him could live separately. That's why he needed to be resurrected to come back to life.
Okay. Thanks for clarifying your position.
How do you define the word "afterlife"?
Or, what is the state of the dead?
Note: There are 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation of the Bible.
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The concept "afterlife" is of pagan origin; it does not come from the Scriptures.
The realm of the dead is obviously the symbolic place where all dead people are: a state of not life ...
The term for "afterlife" in the Bible is RESURRECTION: giving life back to who was dead.
The realm of the dead is obviously the symbolic place where all dead people are: a state of not life ...
The term for "afterlife" in the Bible is RESURRECTION: giving life back to who was dead.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Jonah was taking a ship from Joppa to Tarshish... both cities are on the Mediterranean coast, so I assume they threw him into that Sea.
Then he was "spat out" onto "dry land" 3 days journey away from Ninevah. Ninevah is landlocked, but it's near the Euphrates river, so...
The story about Jonah does not say that the fish vomited him up in Nineveh. It says:
Jon. 2:10 In time Jehovah commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah out onto the dry land.
...and then it says:
Jonah 3:1 Then the word of Jehovah came to Jonah a second time, saying: 2 “Get up, go to Nineveh the great city, and proclaim to her the message that I tell you.”
3 So Jonah got up and went to Nineveh in obedience to the word of Jehovah. Now Nineveh was a very large city—a walking distance of three days.
So it is logical to understand that the fish vomited Jonah somewhere near his family home where he came back and there subsequently he received the same commission again, and then he obeyed it.
Jon. 2:10 In time Jehovah commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah out onto the dry land.
...and then it says:
Jonah 3:1 Then the word of Jehovah came to Jonah a second time, saying: 2 “Get up, go to Nineveh the great city, and proclaim to her the message that I tell you.”
3 So Jonah got up and went to Nineveh in obedience to the word of Jehovah. Now Nineveh was a very large city—a walking distance of three days.
So it is logical to understand that the fish vomited Jonah somewhere near his family home where he came back and there subsequently he received the same commission again, and then he obeyed it.
About the OP: the Greek word apokatastasis is used in the NT (Acts 3:21; Mat. 17:11), but it does not say anything about universal salvation. Relating that biblically used word with that other doctrine is fallacious.
That Greek word means restoration and a cognate (word with the same root) of it is used with reference to ill human parts restored by Jesus in some sick persons, like in Mat. 12:13.
The "restoration of all things" refers to a time when the evil effects of the rebellion of Satan and our first parents will have been reversed, but that time will only be reached by people faithful to God, not evil people who, together with Satan, will be exterminated from existence.
1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.
That Greek word means restoration and a cognate (word with the same root) of it is used with reference to ill human parts restored by Jesus in some sick persons, like in Mat. 12:13.
The "restoration of all things" refers to a time when the evil effects of the rebellion of Satan and our first parents will have been reversed, but that time will only be reached by people faithful to God, not evil people who, together with Satan, will be exterminated from existence.
1 John 3:8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.
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The word Trinity is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Is that a valid reason to deny the triune God?
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