Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
the first death was in adam all die
the second death is the eternal death they will recieve because they rejected christ
Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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the second death is the eternal death they will recieve because they rejected christ
It is only the DEAD, according to Rev 20 who shall be called before the judgment throne to be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Believers won't be judged then because Christ has already been judged for us. When we are in Christ, what He has we have, that's why Scripture says we have been freed from bondage to death by the resurrection of Christ.
Scripture says we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Will we be at His right hand, as His sheep or at His left as goats in unbelief? The sheep on that day shall be clothed in immortality and incorruption when the last trumpet sounds, so our accounting before God shall be that in life, we have done good (believed on the Lord Jesus Christ) and are not accounted with those who shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life, because they died without the Lord in unbelief.
We shall all stand before God at the judgment, believers appear there to receive our inheritance, while unbelievers shall be judged according to the books and book of life.
Matthew 25:33-34 (KJV) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Romans 14:8-12 (KJV) For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
2 Corinthians 5:9-10 (KJV) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Notice in this verse John says all of the dead in the graves shall come before God in an hour coming, and those who in life who were born again shall be resurrected not to be judged but to physical immortal life, and those who have done evil (unbelievers) resurrected for damnation. That is the second death through the lake of fire.
John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
At the resurrection those who have done good will be resurrected in immortal & incorruptible bodies of flesh because we are not destined to damnation when we are in Christ, because Christ has already made atonement for us by His death on the cross.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You didn't miss much. - LOL
From the OP. (opening post)
Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.
"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.
/
Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?
Old misunderstood concept.
New preaching of the old misunderstood concept.
God desires ALL to Believe.
ALL shall Believe.
God desires ALL to Be Saved.
ALL shall not Be Saved.
ALL have Free-WILL…individuals Choices.
ALL while alive in their flesh, blood Life body, chooses what they do or do not believe.
Bodily die…IN Heartful Belief…you shall be Saved.
Bodily die…WITHOUT Heartful Belief…you shall not be Saved.
Bodily die…Crucified with Jesus…you ARE Saved.
Bodily die…NOT making a choice…you shall not be Saved.
All Dead bodies SHALL be Risen up…(Not by its blood life returning to it), but by it’s Living SOUL, returning to the body.
The living soul returning to it’s body, allows for that body (void of its BLOOD), to See, to Hear, to Speak, to Taste, to Feel Touch, to revive the body, to stand, to kneel.
Such risen, un-SaVED souls, re-imparted into it’s natural body…shall STAND Before the JUDGE…see Jesus, hear Jesus, Believe what they Hear and Believe what they See, AND bow down before Him and Praise and Worship Him…and Hear Him pronounce their Judgement of their Body to be eternally Separated from God. And there Soul eternally separated from God.
The LIFE (blood) in their body…is already dead.
The LIFE (Gods Breath) in their soul..shall depart their soul, and return to God.
Their Body, without Life…
AND
Their Soul, without Life…
SHALL be destroyed, by Fire.
Their “natural spirit” (ie truth in their heart), was NEVER “reborn” of Gods Seed. (It died when their natural body died.)
Isa 45: (foretold)
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14 (foretelling reiterated)
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Timing…while a man is alive in his LIFE (blood), he has freewill to choose, believe, or not.
After bodily death….time for his LIFE (blood) to choose, is expired.
All souls Belong to God…all Life in a soul, Belongs to God.
All souls SHALL Believe, SHALL Confess Belief…Yet if a SOUL does not have a BELIEVING (Body) to occupy….that soul without life, and that un-believing body without life….shall be destroyed….
AND…remembered no more.
Universalism….?
The Son of Man came to Earth from Heaven?
….Yes
Some men acknowledge He the Son of God?
…Yes.
Some men rejected He the Son of God?
…Yes
The Son of Man, returned to Heaven?
…Yes
The Son of Man, Last seen IN the Clouds?
…Yes
The Son of Man, Will be seen BY all human eyes, IN the Clouds?
…Yes
All (the living in heaven, on earth, dead in the seas, in hell…will see the Son of Man in the clouds…AND Believe?
…Yes
All will be Saved?
…No.
Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Manner of His Leaving…CLOUDS
Same manner of His Return…CLOUDS
Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
SICKLE ? Separating the Divided.
With and without Him
saved and Unsaved.
Glory to God,
Taken
Old misunderstood concept.
New preaching of the old misunderstood concept.
God desires ALL to Believe.
ALL shall Believe.
God desires ALL to Be Saved.
ALL shall not Be Saved.
ALL have Free-WILL…individuals Choices.
ALL while alive in their flesh, blood Life body, chooses what they do or do not believe.
Bodily die…IN Heartful Belief…you shall be Saved.
Bodily die…WITHOUT Heartful Belief…you shall not be Saved.
Bodily die…Crucified with Jesus…you ARE Saved.
Bodily die…NOT making a choice…you shall not be Saved.
All Dead bodies SHALL be Risen up…(Not by its blood life returning to it), but by it’s Living SOUL, returning to the body.
The living soul returning to it’s body, allows for that body (void of its BLOOD), to See, to Hear, to Speak, to Taste, to Feel Touch, to revive the body, to stand, to kneel.
Such risen, un-SaVED souls, re-imparted into it’s natural body…shall STAND Before the JUDGE…see Jesus, hear Jesus, Believe what they Hear and Believe what they See, AND bow down before Him and Praise and Worship Him…and Hear Him pronounce their Judgement of their Body to be eternally Separated from God. And there Soul eternally separated from God.
The LIFE (blood) in their body…is already dead.
The LIFE (Gods Breath) in their soul..shall depart their soul, and return to God.
Their Body, without Life…
AND
Their Soul, without Life…
SHALL be destroyed, by Fire.
Their “natural spirit” (ie truth in their heart), was NEVER “reborn” of Gods Seed. (It died when their natural body died.)
Isa 45: (foretold)
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14 (foretelling reiterated)
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Matt 10:
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Timing…while a man is alive in his LIFE (blood), he has freewill to choose, believe, or not.
After bodily death….time for his LIFE (blood) to choose, is expired.
All souls Belong to God…all Life in a soul, Belongs to God.
All souls SHALL Believe, SHALL Confess Belief…Yet if a SOUL does not have a BELIEVING (Body) to occupy….that soul without life, and that un-believing body without life….shall be destroyed….
AND…remembered no more.
Universalism….?
The Son of Man came to Earth from Heaven?
….Yes
Some men acknowledge He the Son of God?
…Yes.
Some men rejected He the Son of God?
…Yes
The Son of Man, returned to Heaven?
…Yes
The Son of Man, Last seen IN the Clouds?
…Yes
The Son of Man, Will be seen BY all human eyes, IN the Clouds?
…Yes
All (the living in heaven, on earth, dead in the seas, in hell…will see the Son of Man in the clouds…AND Believe?
…Yes
All will be Saved?
…No.
Acts 1:
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Manner of His Leaving…CLOUDS
Same manner of His Return…CLOUDS
Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
SICKLE ? Separating the Divided.
With and without Him
saved and Unsaved.
Glory to God,
Taken
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocatastasis
A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls
Clement of Alexandria. Tixeront also writes very aptly concerning this matter: "Clement allows that sinful souls shall be sanctified after death by a spiritual fire, and that the wicked shall, likewise, be punished by fire. Will their chastisement be eternal? It would not seem so. In the Stromata, VII, 2 (P.G., IX, col. 416), the punishment of which Clement speaks, and which succeeds the final judgment, constrains the wicked to repent. In chapter xvi (col. 541) the author lays down the principle that God does not punish, but corrects; that is to say that all chastisement on His part is remedial. If Origen be supposed to have started from this principle in order to arrive at the apokatastasis--and Gregory of Nyssa as well--it is extremely probable that Clement of Alexandria understood it in the same sense" (Histoire des dogmes, I, 277). Origen, however, does not seem to have regarded the doctrine of the apokatastasis as one meant to be preached to all, it being enough for the generality of the faithful to know that sinners will be punished. (Against Celsus VI.26)
The doctrine, then, was first taught by Origen, and by Clement of Alexandria, and was an influence in their Christianity due to Platonism, as Petavius has plainly shown (Theol. dogmat. De Angelis, 106), following St. Augustine City of God XXI.13. Compare Janet, "La philosophiede Platon" (Paris, 1869), I, 603. It is evident, moreover, that the doctrine involves a purely natural scheme of divine justice and of redemption. (Plato, Republic, X, 614b.)
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apocatastasis
A name given in the history of theology to the doctrine which teaches that a time will come when all free creatures will share in the grace of salvation; in a special way, the devils and lost souls
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Good, good analogy SteVen. That's why more Viet Nam veterans died of suicide after coming back to the USA than ever died in the whole Viet Nam war. I saw, participated and knew about so many illegal things that it made me hate the government of the United States.....though I DID, and STILL do, love my country, and there is a difference.
Documentary movie; THE KILL TEAM (2019) accurately tells the truth about 'what I'm talking about'. If you ever wanted to why those who've actually seen COMBAT, never want to talk about it when they come home? Watch it, it brought back emotions I thought I buried 'over there'. Truth is, those emotions were BURIED....ALIVE.
If you tell the truth 'and get caught' as a 'leader' you go to prison for what you commanded others to do. If you were a 'blindly follow the orders', you're doing the murdering and you still went to prison. If all the guys are murdering, but you, you die in 'friendly fire' because you are a witness and therefore a threat to them going to prison.
As you may remember SteVen, I was flown, under orders from those superior to me, from Bearcat (20 miles from Saigon) to my undisclosed destination, of CAMBODIA, ( I was told where we went after we crossed the border heading back to Bearcat) I was taken there to try to fix a shot up helicopter good enough to 'get back' to VN. When I got back to base, I picked up my mail, which contained a week old copy of my home town newspaper. Its FRONT Page headline said; "NO! US WILL NOT ESCALATE INTO CAMBODIA!!! (Coincidence...or God-incidence?) Thank you Jesus I didn't 'disappear on the bank of that river in Cambodia, to be reported back home as AWOL. On base we had a covered bed pickup they'd throw 6-8 of us in to take us to a nearby town; to party at the bars and hook up with the....hookers. The truck had a 'on/off throw switch, on the dash, for the horn'. When we got to the congested streets in town the driver would flip the switch and never touch the brake. He ran over people. I was sitting at the back of that truck, feeling the 'bump'. Then seeing a bicycle and a human being flying into the air after running over them. Yeah, I loved my government, and our part in that worthless war. OK, sorry, I just had to rant. I was embarrassed to stand up every year that 'the Church' that wanted to honor us on Memorial day for our SERVICE to our country....WRONG, we SACRIFICED our lives for our Government.
OK, I know 'off topic' and now I'm really done.
I had a draft card but was not drafted. My father fought in WWII.
He was part of the troops that were trapped in the Battle of the Bulge.
He only had one war story. A German platoon (?) was marching up a city main street like they owned the place.
At the right moment my Dad popped up with his Browning Automatic trained on them and said, "HALT!"
He had captured them.
When buying Christmas presents one year I saw a a board table game titled the Battle of the Bulge.
Dad and I used to play STRATEGO, saw I thought this was a good gift idea. Wrong.
After opening the gift he set it down and never touched it again. It took it home with me.
Was always fascinated with the Vietnam war.
The war I was almost in.
Watched all, or most of the popular movies on the subject.
Loved to play ARMY when I was a kid. WWII stuff.
We used to run around in the woods with green jackets and sticks for guns.
I found a show about 40 years ago on which veterans told their stories.
That was the best info on the subject. IMHO
They finally had an opportunity to speak. They seemed very grateful to be heard at last.
/
In school, while growing up, we learned that the horrible communists used propaganda to lie to their people and cover up the truth about what they were doing. America was a GREAT country because we would never do that. Right?
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Right, and that's what I believed also. I went over as the red blooded, true blue, kill the commies American kid. 6 months over there and I got enough 'OJT' training to change my mind.
How ironic, my dad was also in the ''Battle of the bulge." And he didn't have it so good. In a freezing tank that they couldn't get out of except to pee/poop, for 30 days. They even threw their rations in to them. They had a foot of ice in the bottom of that tank from the condensation of their breath. And one time they had armor piercing round go clear through their tank (missed them all). Another time the 3rd round of an 88 mm anti tank canon, landed right beside their tank blowing it over. Everyone thought they were all dead....not one was. But the one story he told one of us 4 boys, me, was the time he was 'out to pee' and had to shoot a German in a uniform way too big for him...at point blank range with his pistol. Hurt him bad, I saw it in his face, and he never said, but we assume it was a kid. Germany was loosing and they sent 12 year olds out in adult uniforms to kill or be killed. WAR IS HELL.
And that HELL isn't even realized to it's fullest extent because someone watches a movie. I've cried in every Viet Nam movie I ever watched 'at some point' because a scene became a flashback. And those who have been brain washed into how justifiable ETERNAL TORTURE IN THE BURNING FIRES OF HELL is because GOD IS DOING IT, just shows how far they really are from the reality of that doctrine>. A doctrine from the SERPENT in EDEN. "SOPHISTRY" was the correct word used by someone here. The definition of that word, concerning the temptation of EVE, means believing 'something said that is SUPERFICIALLY plausible. Right on, and the 'belly crawling serpent' has taken a bite out of the dust of another human being. Why? Because he was weak and therefore food for Satan and the devil.
