Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[St. SteVen]

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?
Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO

 

[face2face]

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.

This would be better worded, "this is the best match for the god of my own making"

You believe in a god without judgement... who then is a god without mercy.

It's the opposite of what you want in a god!...but you are too foolish to see that.

How long do we need to endure your many UR posts?

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

You believe in a god without judgement... who then is a god without mercy.

On the contrary, my good fellow.
Mercy is the best outcome of judgment.

Do you not understand that UR includes judgment?
And that judgment does not infer a harsh sentence.

The God who taught us to love our enemies will do no less with his own.
Unless you believe that God operates at a lower standard than he holds us to?
Do you believe that?

/

 

[Hillsage]

This would be better worded, "this is the best match for the god of my own making"

You believe in a god without judgement... who then is a god without mercy.

It's the opposite of what you want in a god!...but you are too foolish to see that.

How long do we need to endure your many UR posts?

F2F

If anyone has a god of their own making it would have been the church of ROME. Killing 3,000 to 3,500 Christians who didn't agree theologically with them. They just couldn't catch Luther, or they would have murdered him too. All that bloodshed over DOCTRINE hmmm. And it was also responsible for massive bloodshed in the crusades too. Killing people who disagreed with THE THEOLOGY of "THE CHURCH".

The Apostate Church of circa 300 AD created a God who is a million times worse than Hitler. At least you could die and be free from Hitler's Auschwitz. But not so with the church of ROME's Hell. Their HELL is going to ETERNALLY torture you with pain a thousand times worse than Hitler and his hellions could even come up with. And all the while that same God is going to have absolutely no purpose for His never-ending sadistic HELL.

So, if I have to choose a God of MY own making I'm going to choose the one who's more loving and forgiving, than I am. And He also, in His omniscience created the Satan and the devil for His purposes.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Christianity is for the whole world in fact !
If one claims it's not, then one is not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact !

What does someone who undermines Jesus think, that it's National, for just one spot ?

Everyone needs Christ Jesus in fact, for if they don't, they are a curse in fact ! a blight to God in fact regardless. for they are not found !

 

[The Learner]

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?
Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO

quotes from newadvent.org with links, please and thank you, Daniel

 

[St. SteVen]

quotes from newadvent.org with links, please and thank you, Daniel

Is this a request? I don't understand.

/

 

[marks]

Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?​

Old.

Genesis 3:1-6 KJV
1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The God who taught us to love our enemies will do no less with his own.
Unless you believe that God operates at a lower standard than he holds us to?
Do you believe that?

Sophistry.

You are not allowed to execute others, but the state is. God does not allow you to execute others, but He does.

Is it authority that you have issues with?

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

You are not allowed to execute others, but the state is.

Even humans are HUMANE enough to have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
A forever burning hell with no hope of escape is off the charts in terms of pointless, sadistic, and cruel punishment.
Worse than any despot in human history. Makes the holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.
But you are happy to lay that at God's doorstep. (for shame)

/

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?
Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO

if 3 is correct. the cross is foolishness. Why die and suffer if everyone will be saved anyway

 

[marks]

Even humans are HUMANE enough to have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
A forever burning hell with no hope of escape is off the charts in terms of pointless, sadistic, and cruel punishment.
Worse than any despot in human history. Makes the holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.
But you are happy to lay that at God's doorstep. (for shame)

/

That would be those parts of the Bible you don't like, and reject, I suppose.

Much love, and hope that you will come to accept all of Scripture!

 

[St. SteVen]

if 3 is correct. the cross is foolishness. Why die and suffer if everyone will be saved anyway

That's not what it means.
There will be consequences for our deeds. No one gets off for free.
The cross means that there will be restoration and redemption for all.
Which is ACTUAL good news. The ultimate triumph of grace.

/

 

[The Learner]

Is this a request? I don't understand.

Yes, it is always interresting to see what early church fathers wrote about a topic. thanks for asking, daniel

 

[The Learner]

darn not keeping up

 

[Hillsage]

if 3 is correct. the cross is foolishness. Why die and suffer if everyone will be saved anyway

Are you kidding? That's HOW everyone qualified. It was because of what Jesus did, not what you did. When you received Jesus by faith it was His death on that cross which forgave your sins along with everyone else's. Jesus paid the price for all. You accepting Him......WHEN you first believed didn't forgive you. You were forgiven and that's what you tell people when you witness. "Jesus died for your SINS, just say this prayer and your sins will be forgiven???? Say what!!! Either He died and they were forgiven 2,000 years ago or they weren't. You don't accept Jesus to BE FORGIVEN.....you accept Jesus to FEEL FORGIVENESS. And then what did PETER preach on the day of Pentecost AFTER you "REPENT" "BE BAPTIZED" "RECIEVE THE holy spirit"?

ACT 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "SAVE YOURSELVES from this crooked generation."

Where is "REJOICE THAT YOU are now SAVED from not going to ETERNAL HELL."?

If ETERNAL HELL was the price for sin, then why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL paying that price?

 

[St. SteVen]

If ETERNAL HELL was the price for sin, then why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL paying that price?

That's a great point.
Jesus paid a finite price. Why would those who didn't receive it PAY MORE than that?
No way is that justice!

/

 

[St. SteVen]

That would be those parts of the Bible you don't like, and reject, I suppose.

Much love, and hope that you will come to accept all of Scripture!

Caveat Emptor ("Let the buyer beware")

I do accept all of Scripture. But with a realistic view.
I don't buy the false aggrandizing of it beyond its value.
And I consider that aggrandizing to be Bibliolatry.
(worship of the book, rather than the author)

Consider this:
- We don't have the original autographs (manuscripts)
- The copies, of copies, of copies we do have are incomplete fragments.
- The manuscript fragments are loaded with textual variants.
- Textual criticism is required to give us our best guess as to what the originals said.
- One of three different methods of Textual criticism were used. Which one is right?
- Translators applied their own doctrinal bias. Of their own,
or that dictated by the Church/State politics.
- Modern translations add their own level of bias.

Are these the scriptures that you accept as inerrant?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Could you actually address the issue in my post?

St. SteVen said:

Even humans are HUMANE enough to have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
A forever burning hell with no hope of escape is off the charts in terms of pointless, sadistic, and cruel punishment.
Worse than any despot in human history. Makes the holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.
But you are happy to lay that at God's doorstep. (for shame)

/

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you kidding? That's HOW everyone qualified. It was because of what Jesus did, not what you did. When you received Jesus by faith it was His death on that cross which forgave your sins along with everyone else's. Jesus paid the price for all. You accepting Him......WHEN you first believed didn't forgive you. You were forgiven and that's what you tell people when you witness. "Jesus died for your SINS, just say this prayer and your sins will be forgiven???? Say what!!! Either He died and they were forgiven 2,000 years ago or they weren't. You don't accept Jesus to BE FORGIVEN.....you accept Jesus to FEEL FORGIVENESS. And then what did PETER preach on the day of Pentecost AFTER you "REPENT" "BE BAPTIZED" "RECIEVE THE holy spirit"?

ACT 2:40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "SAVE YOURSELVES from this crooked generation."

Where is "REJOICE THAT YOU are now SAVED from not going to ETERNAL HELL."?

If ETERNAL HELL was the price for sin, then why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL paying that price?

No, I am not kidding. If everyone, no matter who they are or what they believe, will be saved, The the cross is foolishness.

If God is going to save anyone anyway. They there is no need to send his son to die that death.

Saying everyone will be saved is to mock the cross.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If ETERNAL HELL was the price for sin, then why isn't Jesus sitting in ETERNAL HELL paying that price?

Eternal hell is not the payment for sin. Thats Why Jesus had to die
Eternal hell is where those who reject God will spend apart from him.

God called it the second death. And he said it will be forever.

it was not created for mankind, it was created for satan and his fallen angels. Sadly, those who reject Christ will go there with Satan and his angels..