Apokatastasis in the early church

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,911
21,968
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No disrespect, but if you haven't even read one of them... how are you qualified to compare the two?


Really? It's a major theme in several of his epistles. For instance...

1Corinthians 15:39-50 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds. 40 [There are] also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I've read both. They are not the same. Aristotle knew the terrestrial being only, he did not know regeneration. The spirit of the regenerate man has no counterpart in Aristotle, at least that I recall.

This passage you've quoted from Corinthains 15, this is not a higher and lower nature of man, this is the types of beings and other things that exist, the differences between them.

The natural man becomes the spiritual man. Aristotle didn't write in those terms. Paul did.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,911
21,968
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It was the ECF who canonized the inspired books into what we have today, THE BIBLE! So your disdain for them is stupid and self-defeating.
That's partly true. Not all "ECF's" participated in the canonization of Scripture. And just the same, someone can get it right in one part, and get it wrong in another part.

Calling someone stupid over this is sorely misplaced, and very poor form, IMO.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,911
21,968
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus taught us to love our enemies.
Does he operate under a lower standard than he holds us to?
Or perhaps we should incinerate our enemies in a fit of unbridled rage to follow his example?
You may not execute someone legally, while the state may. Do you understand why that is?

If God takes away from the wicked to give to the righteous, that's His perogative, but if you do it, that's stealing.

Much love!
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If God takes away from the wicked to give to the righteous, that's His perogative...
That works if you figure he is a cosmic tyrant.
If the playground bully does it... it's his prerogative.

What a terrible view of God.

/
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,911
21,968
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That works if you figure he is a cosmic tyrant.
If the playground bully does it... it's his prerogative.

What a terrible view of God.

/
You equate God to a playground bully.

And the state? Same thing? They can execute people legally but if you do it that's murder. The state can incarcarate, if you do it that's kidnapping and false imprisonment. Playground bullies all?

God has the right to do what He wants with the things He made, including us. The Bible, were you to believe it, declares Him to be both loving and just, and those are not a contradiction.

God knows what is fair and right and just and loving, and this is how He is. The Bible declares this. Do you have a problem with any of these attributes? Or do you impose your idea of wisdom on His, and judge God? It sound's exactly like that is what you are doing. Or you simply don't know the Scriptures, or don't believe them.

Since you speak so strongly and consistently against the reliability of the Scriptures, and man's inability to understand them, I guess that's the answer.

Much love! And hope that you can come to believe God can actually effectively communicate with us!
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,850
2,169
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'll talk s l o w e r so you can understand.

Yes, or no?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. - Yes, or no?
Jesus operates under a lower standard than he holds us to. - Yes, or no?
We should incinerate our enemies in a fit of unbridled rage to follow his example . - Yes, or no?

/
I understood your questions. Based on your previous posts, I know that behind your questions lie a hidden agenda.
Jesus taught me not to fall for this line of questioning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,850
2,169
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No disrespect, but if you haven't even read one of them... how are you qualified to compare the two?
Although I haven't read much of Aristotle's works myself, I've read a few papers on his philosophy by Stanford scholars. Yesterday, I searched the internet for comparisons between Aristotle and Paul, and I realized how little is known about Paul's teachings, beliefs, mindset, and worldview. These scholars may be well-versed in Aristotle's philosophy, but they have limited knowledge about Paul.
Really? It's a major theme in several of his epistles.
Aristotle and Paul had contrasting viewpoints. Aristotle's main emphasis was on analyzing the existing reality and comprehending its essence. In contrast, Paul discusses a future event in 1 Corinthians 15, where he portrays a profound transformation in human nature. It's worth noting that Paul didn't derive this idea from Aristotle. Instead, he claims that he received it directly from God himself.

It is important to note that Paul does not assign the transformation "we shall all be changed" to all of humanity as a general statement, despite what was said earlier. In other parts of his writing, Paul identifies the chosen as those who are "in Christ" and who will be raised with him. Speaking about those people who are "in Christ", Paul outlines their inheritance in Ephesians chapter 1.

Ephesians 1:11-14
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

As we see here, salvation is not granted universally to all human beings, but only to those who have been predestined according to his purpose. He is granting salvation to those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit as an earnest or a pledge of their inheritance.
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,850
2,169
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'll talk s l o w e r so you can understand.

Yes, or no?
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. - Yes, or no?
Jesus operates under a lower standard than he holds us to. - Yes, or no?
We should incinerate our enemies in a fit of unbridled rage to follow his example . - Yes, or no?

/
Why do people feel the need to make a big deal out of asking questions?
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I understood your questions. Based on your previous posts, I know that behind your questions lie a hidden agenda.
Jesus taught me not to fall for this line of questioning.
Is that a fact? - LOL
Jesus taught you not to fall for this line of reasoning? How so?

The Jesus of the Bible taught us to love our enemies. (vs 44 below)
And that this is godly behavior. (vs 48 below)

If you (and your imaginary Jesus) claim that God doesn't love his enemies,
then he holds us to a higher standard than he holds himself to. Or worse.
Is that your claim? Your imaginary angry volcano god? The cosmic tyrant?
Playground bully of the Universe? I don't buy it.

You are making God out to be worse than a pagan or tax collector. (traitor)
See verses 46 and 47 below.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

/
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do people feel the need to make a big deal out of asking questions?
I don't know.
You'll have to ask them. - LOL

I think the questions are MORE important than the answers.
The Jesus of the Bible understands this.

Luke 10:26 NIV
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

/
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,602
3,620
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Whether an idea is old or new is not an arbiter of truth. But I maintain that the so-called "fathers" are unreliable sources of truth.
Amen. Paul warned that after he departed wolves (hungry, ambitious) would take over the church, so anything written after the apostles needs to be gone over with a fine toothed comb to sort out the wheat from the chaff. In light of what Paul said, I consider that only the apostles were the 'fathers' of the church, and their writings were authoritative in the Lord, not those who came after them!
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,602
3,620
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Here are just a few quotes by the early church fathers, compiled by Gary Amirault’s diligent work, that discuss their beliefs about punishment and restoration in the afterlife:

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. — Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them…the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. –Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled…just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. –Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. –Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ’s way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. –Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19

The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed

In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. –St. Jerome, 331-420

For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. –Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. –Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. –Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)

Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness …either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.–Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)

That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, “You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny” unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. –Peter Chrysologus, 435

I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. –St. Jerome

“In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.” – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. — Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.–Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up… The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. –Jerome

In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord’s passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. –Didymus, 370 AD

While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. –St. Chrysostom, 398 AD
Those writings just tell me there is nothing new under the sun. As far as paying the last penny on the debt owing.....what are the wages of sin?
 

Lizbeth

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2022
2,602
3,620
113
66
Ontario, Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
When many hear about Apokatastasis (the restoration of all things), Universalism, Christian Universalism,
Universal Restoration, Universal Reconciliation, Universal Redemption, UR...

There is an assumption that this is a new idea. Something modern liberal theologians cooked up. Not so.

Apokatastasis was a major part of Christian theology in the early church.

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin,
Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the
two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem,
Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha,
Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,
and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

--- Agree or disagree? ---

Quotes from the early church fathers in the next post.


@Chadrho @Patrick1966
First I would think we need to get an idea from the word of God what HE means by restoration. Seems to have a lot to do with what remains after the shaking and who and what God roots out of His kingdom.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Amen. Paul warned that after he departed wolves (hungry, ambitious) would take over the church, so anything written after the apostles needs to be gone over with a fine toothed comb to sort out the wheat from the chaff. In light of what Paul said, I consider that only the apostles were the 'fathers' of the church, and their writings were authoritative in the Lord, not those who came after them!
So the church was a house of cards that collapsed in the next generation?

/
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Those writings just tell me there is nothing new under the sun. As far as paying the last penny on the debt owing.....what are the wages of sin?
The wages of sin is death. The penalty that Jesus paid in FULL for ALL of humankind on the cross.
Unless you think the Atonement was incomplete somehow.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

/
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First I would think we need to get an idea from the word of God what HE means by restoration. Seems to have a lot to do with what remains after the shaking and who and what God roots out of His kingdom.
God's desire is for everyone to be saved. Will the omnipotent one be frustrated by the will of humankind?
I think everyone will need a tune up to be prepared for the kingdom.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

/
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,638
3,919
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul warned that after he departed wolves (hungry, ambitious) would take over the church...
That strikes me a a gross exaggeration.
You are talking about those that provided our Bible.
Granted, there were problems. But not at the level you propose.

/
 

CadyandZoe

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2020
5,850
2,169
113
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Is that a fact? - LOL
Jesus taught you not to fall for this line of reasoning? How so?
I take issue with your approach to discussion, which begins with leading questions intended to cause doubt and uncertainty, especially about the existence of God, the nature of God, the reliability of the scriptures, and the gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ.
The Jesus of the Bible taught us to love our enemies. (vs 44 below)
And that this is godly behavior. (vs 48 below)
Thanks. I already know this.
If you (and your imaginary Jesus) claim that God doesn't love his enemies,
then he holds us to a higher standard than he holds himself to. Or worse.
Is that your claim? Your imaginary angry volcano god? The cosmic tyrant?
Playground bully of the Universe? I don't buy it.
I understand your position. So let's cut to the chase. You attack me and those like me who believe what the Bible says as written, because the Bible describes God as a God of wrath.

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

You stubbornly refuse to accept or acknowledge the fact that the one true living God is a god of wrath and that he will punish and destroy those who practice unrighteousness.

You prefer your imaginary God, the one who doesn't hold you responsible for your actions.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, so He will repay, Wrath to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; To the coastlands He will make recompense.

Yes, God's love is perfect. But so is his justice. He will repay his adversaries with wrath as both the Apostle Paul and Isaiah record in the scriptures. Believe what the scriptures say. Take care. Appeals to emotion can do nothing but prejudice yourself against the creator. Rather, Fear the the Lord as Solomon has said.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.