Apostolic councils?

[jaybird]

Only a blind person - or a liar - can't see that magnificent, victorious cross atop the pagan obelisk in St. Peter's Square.
Which one are YOU?

did Jews have canaanite statues in front of the temple?

 

[jaybird]

boy, I hope you get over this affliction before you are kneeling before God

sorry but i will never condone the wrongdoings of such evil people.

 

[amigo de christo]

Aspen dont get me started on Bush jr, Sr, and their nazi supporting papaw Prescott.

chief , i have personally watched his son , george busch say and claim that muslims , christians etc worship the same God .
Folks got no idea what is going in the political realm today and has been going on in it .

 

[aspen]

sorry but i will never condone the wrongdoings of such evil people.

No one is asking you to. However, you are never going to find a perfect person or system or church - we are called to love our brothers and sisters anyway

 

[jaybird]

No one is asking you to. However, you are never going to find a perfect person or system or church - we are called to love our brothers and sisters anyway

i understand. but, much of this still goes on today. if you let it go, turn a blind eye, nothing will ever change. shouldnt we try to be better that that.

 

[aspen]

i understand. but, much of this still goes on today. if you let it go, turn a blind eye, nothing will ever change. shouldnt we try to be better that that.

No one is turning a blind eye or asking you to do so.

It is interesting that you are worried about this because it reminds me of many, many people who live in the liberal Oregon town I do - they are miserable and feel extremely guilty on top of their misery if anyone mentions a happy topic. It is like they are doing penance for the destruction of the rainforests or the wildfires due to climate change. I doubt you are liberal, but your negativity due to a pervasive distrust in institutions reminds me of their negativity.

It seems like bondage.

God is not preparing us a place in Heaven so we can be distrustful and steeped in misery. He is sanctifying our hearts to be free and glad - to be joyful.

 

[BreadOfLife]

did Jews have canaanite statues in front of the temple?

Nope - but the Jews didn't have Christ as their Victor and Savior over the Canaanites.
Christians DO have Him as Victor and Savior over paganism and every other form of sin.

 

[Marymog]

Apostolic being defined based on Biblical testimony, is divinely authoritative (council in Jerusalem, Acts 15). If you are referring to ecumenical councils, or councils convened after the Apostolic age (90ad), there is absolutely zero authority.

Hi DNB,

What about the Councils that solidified what 27 books were to be in your Bible as God breathed Scripture??

 

[Marymog]

Where does the Bible establish the principle of Apostolic succession, ...of which I vehemently denounce?!

Hi DNB,

30-33AD Jesus taught the Apostles the Truth
33-100 AD The Apostles taught other Christian men the Truth
100AD-110AD Those men then taught other Christian men the Truth
etc
etc
etc so on and so on until the year 2020

According to your theory: When did the Christian man stop being taught the Truth?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

As church history is one of my favorites subjects and which I have studied assiduously, I am very aware that such things as apostolic succession and apostolic councils were invented by a pseudo-church called the Roman Catholic Church.

The original church is known as The Way and there were no Christians in that church let alone a roman catholic one. As the apostles went around sharing the good news of the risen Christ, first to the Jews and then to the gentiles, in most cases they left them to govern themselves according to what they had been taught by the apostles.

It was not a case that the apostles had faith in their teaching or the new converts, it was a case they had faith in the Holy Spirit to teach them the truth. This usually happened as I read yesterday about a church that was full of ex-homosexuals, fornicators, thieves, slaves and various other ner do wells. All born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and a sense of the debilitating nature of sin.

Whenever something arose that was causing a problem the apostles either wrote a letter addressing the problem or sent someone to sort it out. An example is Paul telling Timothy to stay in the church at Ephesus to sort out some things and to appoint Elders (not pastors) to take charge of the church which he did.

On that point, if the scripture is our guide and teacher, we should be appointing Elders, not pastors to take care of the church. In fact, no new testament church appointed a pastor to run the church. There are 23 verses that refer to the leadership in the new testament church and the passages in Timothy and Titus and they all refer to Elders. Not one refers to pastors. So the question is why do we do that which is contrary to scripture?

Every church in those days was self-governing and had to make their own way in society as best suited them in the environment they lived in. Once the 12 disciples had died, usually murdered by a hateful Sanhedrin or under Roman law, they had established enough people who were fanatical about spreading the news of the Messiah and as a result, the known world was evangelized.

There was no roman catholic church in sight, no central authority, and no pope. The RCC was nothing more than a grab for power much later and centralized authority so they could control everything.

And one final point. Much of what the RCC does is contrary to scripture and without authority from the word, God or Jesus.

Hi marksman,

30-33AD Jesus taught the Apostles the Truth
33-100 AD The Apostles taught other Christian men the Truth
100AD-110AD Those men then taught other Christian men the Truth
etc
etc
etc so on and so on until the year 2020

According to assiduous studies: When did the Christian man stop being taught the Truth?

Curious Mary

 

[Truman]

With the following example - I’ll PROVE to you just how Scripturally-Blind you are – and how phony the “Gospel” of Thomas is.
The following is from this book:

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Thomas 114).

This is just absolute nonsense. Jesus respected women greatly and NEVER would have said this because it would have contradicted the Word of God.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - Paul wrote:
“There is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).

Matt. 19:4 says that God Himself had “made them male and female” – so whether a person is a male or female makes NO DIFFERENCE in salvation.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

I once sat down and started to read the gospel of Thomas. I didn't make it through the first chapter before I realized that it was pure garbage. Definitely not inspired by God. Shalom.

 

[Truman]

As church history is one of my favorites subjects and which I have studied assiduously, I am very aware that such things as apostolic succession and apostolic councils were invented by a pseudo-church called the Roman Catholic Church.

The original church is known as The Way and there were no Christians in that church let alone a roman catholic one. As the apostles went around sharing the good news of the risen Christ, first to the Jews and then to the gentiles, in most cases they left them to govern themselves according to what they had been taught by the apostles.

It was not a case that the apostles had faith in their teaching or the new converts, it was a case they had faith in the Holy Spirit to teach them the truth. This usually happened as I read yesterday about a church that was full of ex-homosexuals, fornicators, thieves, slaves and various other ner do wells. All born again and filled with the Holy Spirit and a sense of the debilitating nature of sin.

Whenever something arose that was causing a problem the apostles either wrote a letter addressing the problem or sent someone to sort it out. An example is Paul telling Timothy to stay in the church at Ephesus to sort out some things and to appoint Elders (not pastors) to take charge of the church which he did.

On that point, if the scripture is our guide and teacher, we should be appointing Elders, not pastors to take care of the church. In fact, no new testament church appointed a pastor to run the church. There are 23 verses that refer to the leadership in the new testament church and the passages in Timothy and Titus and they all refer to Elders. Not one refers to pastors. So the question is why do we do that which is contrary to scripture?

Every church in those days was self-governing and had to make their own way in society as best suited them in the environment they lived in. Once the 12 disciples had died, usually murdered by a hateful Sanhedrin or under Roman law, they had established enough people who were fanatical about spreading the news of the Messiah and as a result, the known world was evangelized.

There was no roman catholic church in sight, no central authority, and no pope. The RCC was nothing more than a grab for power much later and centralized authority so they could control everything.

And one final point. Much of what the RCC does is contrary to scripture and without authority from the word, God or Jesus.

Amens! Lol. The true ekklesia is built on the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
The followers of the Way, aka the disciples, stayed with the believers in Antioch for a year in order to help them spiritually. Including the proper administration of the word. While not the same as the body, they were closely related.
I believe this has to do with God's authority structure and nothing to do with one's right standing or value before God, which is always to do with the revelation that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of the living God.
When the disciples were first called Christians, I see it as an understandable mistake on the public's behalf. However, I think calling them, "the Nazarene sect of Judaism," is technically accurate.
I see the body of Christ, redeemed Israel as God works it out according to His promises to the patriarchs and His sovereign plan, and the bride of Christ. Together, we are the people of God. Each created by the Master Builder for His specific purposes.
I enjoyed reading your post. Have a nice day. Ron.

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB,

What about the Councils that solidified what 27 books were to be in your Bible as God breathed Scripture??

None did, not one. Do you mean Carthage and Hippo, or Trent? Yes, they may have ratified, in their views, what was handed down by tradition, but this was not an inspired decision or even authoritative. Did they get it right, not a single person knows for sure! Do I trust their decision, for the most part, but again, not due to their wisdom or authority, but due to the circumstances - geographical dispersion, extant manuscripts, disciple lineage (Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, ..). Basically, whatever textual criticism has revealed and confirmed to us, about their decision.

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB,

30-33AD Jesus taught the Apostles the Truth
33-100 AD The Apostles taught other Christian men the Truth
100AD-110AD Those men then taught other Christian men the Truth
etc
etc
etc so on and so on until the year 2020

According to your theory: When did the Christian man stop being taught the Truth?

Curious Mary

Yes, that is true, but I would not give any men any more authority than that which is warranted - how faithfully they handed down the tradition. Succession or lineage does not determine truth and veracity, obedience and humility does. The arrogance of the Popes, for one, entirely disqualify them from the appellation of being a successor to the Apostles.

 

[BreadOfLife]

None did, not one. Do you mean Carthage and Hippo, or Trent? Yes, they may have ratified, in their views, what was handed down by tradition, but this was not an inspired decision or even authoritative. Did they get it right, not a single person knows for sure! Do I trust their decision, for the most part, but again, not due to their wisdom or authority, but due to the circumstances - geographical dispersion, extant manuscripts, disciple lineage (Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, ..). Basically, whatever textual criticism has revealed and confirmed to us, about their decision.

What a weak and faithless view of Scripture.

Scripture is the inerrant, breathed Word of God Himself. The Holy Spirit determined which Books belong4ed in the Canon - and He spoke the decision through His Church.

 

[DNB]

What a weak and faithless view of Scripture.

Scripture is the inerrant, breathed Word of God Himself. The Holy Spirit determined which Books belong4ed in the Canon - and He spoke the decision through His Church.

You show more faith in man, than you do in the wisdom of God. I don't want to hear you tell me who, or where, you think that the Church is. Take a look around you, research history, and consequently one will see that only a credulous and misguided person would believe that there is such an authority on earth.
Accept what God has given us, and accept the means by which He preserved His Word - extremely unconventional. This is the wisdom of God, it is not the wicked Papacy, nor the Byzantine, nor Protestant Churches, it is every man for himself. All men must come to God on their own, indoctrination will not save them, the Pope will not take responsibility for leading anyone astray, so don't put your faith in him, or any man, or any institution. God hates a haughty spirit, and this is indicative of such entities like the massive Churches on earth. In the same manner, He preserved His Word in a humble and unassuming manner - no autographs, only a fragmentary witness pre 3rd century, 400K variances, copies of copies of copies, etc... - no glory outside of the fact that we still have the words of salvation and edification.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Scripture is the inerrant, breathed Word of God Himself.

So who is it not obeying the inerrant Word of God again?

Mat 23:8-11 But be not you called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all you are brethren. (9) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. (10) Neither be you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. (11) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So who is it not obeying the inerrant Word of God again?

Mat 23:8-11 But be not you called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all you are brethren. (9) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. (10) Neither be you called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. (11) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

Learn to understand the CONTEXT of Scripture instead of simply blurting out verses willy-nilly . . .

Jesus isn't condemning the use of the term "Father" in Matt. 23:9. He is using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point and does so many times in Scripture.
In the verse that precedes this (Matt: 23:8), Jesus tells us not to call people “Teachers”. Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" or “teachers” when they may actually be fathers or teachers? Absolutely NOT. He is telling us that no man is to be considered father ABOVE our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all:
“They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi” (Matt 23:6-7).

Consider the following passages:
"Honor thy FATHER and thy mother" (Exod 20:12).
Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
"For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a TEACHER of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
"For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and TEACHER" (2 Tim. 1:11).
"God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third TEACHERS" (1 Cor. 12:28).

YOUR problem is that you don't understand context . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You show more faith in man, than you do in the wisdom of God. I don't want to hear you tell me who, or where, you think that the Church is. Take a look around you, research history, and consequently one will see that only a credulous and misguided person would believe that there is such an authority on earth.
Accept what God has given us, and accept the means by which He preserved His Word - extremely unconventional. This is the wisdom of God, it is not the wicked Papacy, nor the Byzantine, nor Protestant Churches, it is every man for himself. All men must come to God on their own, indoctrination will not save them, the Pope will not take responsibility for leading anyone astray, so don't put your faith in him, or any man, or any institution. God hates a haughty spirit, and this is indicative of such entities like the massive Churches on earth. In the same manner, He preserved His Word in a humble and unassuming manner - no autographs, only a fragmentary witness pre 3rd century, 400K variances, copies of copies of copies, etc... - no glory outside of the fact that we still have the words of salvation and edification.

YOUR version of Christ's Church doesn't exist - nor did He build it that way.

First of all - Christ's Church has ALWAYS been made of imperfect people. He built His Church on 11 COWARDS and 1 DEVIL (Judas).
What makes YOU think that His Church today would be filled with "perfect" people? There is NO such thing.

Secondly - Jesus transferred His Authority onto the leaders of His Church . . .
Matt 16:18-19
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

This is SUPREME earthly Authority.
Paul also speaks of those who have this Authority over Christ's people:
1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

YOU speak against Christ's Church with an ANTI-Biblical tongue . . .

 

[Marymog]

None did, not one. Do you mean Carthage and Hippo, or Trent? Yes, they may have ratified, in their views, what was handed down by tradition, but this was not an inspired decision or even authoritative. Did they get it right, not a single person knows for sure! Do I trust their decision, for the most part, but again, not due to their wisdom or authority, but due to the circumstances - geographical dispersion, extant manuscripts, disciple lineage (Polycarp, Clement, Ignatius, ..). Basically, whatever textual criticism has revealed and confirmed to us, about their decision.

Hi DNB<

So you trust what man handed down by tradition but you don't trust what man AFFIRMED by Council? That is an interesting take on it since traditionally various Christian churches around the world accepted various letters (books) as inspired!!

Traditionally some churches accepted Clement, The Didache etc. as inspired Scripture (part of their bible) and they read them during church services. When did those churches STOP accepting them as inspired and WHY?

You say for the most part you accept their decision on what books belong in Scripture. Which books do you think they left out OR have included in Scripture that don't belong?

Curious Mary