Apostolic councils?

[jaybird]

The Gospel of Thomas?? You actually have the courage to publicly claim this as truth??

You would be laughed right out of ANY scholarly discourse - Catholic OR Protestant. It's a Gnostic pile of manure that is filled with error and contradiction - and being from the mid-to-late 2nd century, IMPOSSIBLE for Thomas to have written.

Dude - I know I said you were ignorant - but this takes you over the EDGE . . .

PS - If Peter WASN'T the leader . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if he was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if he was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if he was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if he was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if he was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if he was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if he was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Good luck . . .

wow, the words of Jesus, according to you, is a pile of manure (crap)

Jesus said judge by their fruits.
church of rome - worship the way we tell you or we burn you alive.
gnostics - worship with us, if not thats ok.

James was the leader of the first church, every historian agrees with that. the bible even has James as leader of the council of acts 15.

your claiming Peter is leader because his name is mentioned so many times? all that proves is his name was mentioned many times.

 

[BreadOfLife]

wow, the words of Jesus, according to you, is a pile of manure (crap)

Jesus said judge by their fruits.
church of rome - worship the way we tell you or we burn you alive.
gnostics - worship with us, if not thats ok.

James was the leader of the first church, every historian agrees with that. the bible even has James as leader of the council of acts 15.

your claiming Peter is leader because his name is mentioned so many times? all that proves is his name was mentioned many times.

With the following example - I’ll PROVE to you just how Scripturally-Blind you are – and how phony the “Gospel” of Thomas is.
The following is from this book:

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Thomas 114).

This is just absolute nonsense. Jesus respected women greatly and NEVER would have said this because it would have contradicted the Word of God.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - Paul wrote:
“There is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).

Matt. 19:4 says that God Himself had “made them male and female” – so whether a person is a male or female makes NO DIFFERENCE in salvation.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

James was the leader of the first church, every historian agrees with that. the bible even has James as leader of the council of acts 15.

your claiming Peter is leader because his name is mentioned so many times? all that proves is his name was mentioned many times.

"EVERY" historian agrees with that??
PROVE it.

James was the Bishop of Jerusalem - not the leader of the entire Church.
I don't know if a SINGLE historian who claims that. Can YOU quote one, Einstein?

 

[BreadOfLife]

When did Jesus say Peter would lead the group.
However gospel of Thomas does in fact have Jesus saying James will lead the group.

And now we know why that book was thrown out. Thanks to nag hammidi that's one book that escaped the roman book burning.

The Gospel of Thomas?? You actually have the courage to publicly claim this as truth??

You would be laughed right out of ANY scholarly discourse - Catholic OR Protestant. It's a Gnostic pile of manure that is filled with error and contradiction - and being from the mid-to-late 2nd century, IMPOSSIBLE for Thomas to have written.

Dude - I know I said you were ignorant - but this takes you over the EDGE . . .

PS - If Peter WASN'T the leader . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if he was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if he was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if he was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if he was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if he was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if he was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if he was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Good luck . . .

STILL waiting for a Scriptural refutation of the above evidence of Peter's Primacy . . .

 

[jaybird]

With the following example - I’ll PROVE to you just how Scripturally-Blind you are – and how phony the “Gospel” of Thomas is.
The following is from this book:

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Thomas 114).

This is just absolute nonsense. Jesus respected women greatly and NEVER would have said this because it would have contradicted the Word of God.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - Paul wrote:
“There is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).

Matt. 19:4 says that God Himself had “made them male and female” – so whether a person is a male or female makes NO DIFFERENCE in salvation.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

But it's ok for Paul to say women keep their mouth shut.
The sad thing is paul really is saying women keep their mouth shut, but Jesus is not talking about a sex change operation, he is talking about inner becomes outer, male becomes female, and all that

 

[jaybird]

With the following example - I’ll PROVE to you just how Scripturally-Blind you are – and how phony the “Gospel” of Thomas is.
The following is from this book:

“Simon Peter said to them, ‘Make Mary leave us, for females don’t deserve life.’ Jesus said, ‘Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven’” (Thomas 114).

This is just absolute nonsense. Jesus respected women greatly and NEVER would have said this because it would have contradicted the Word of God.
Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - Paul wrote:
“There is neither male nor female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28).

Matt. 19:4 says that God Himself had “made them male and female” – so whether a person is a male or female makes NO DIFFERENCE in salvation.

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

Does "mankind" only represent men? Adam was a man, adam also began as a son of the Most High, are sons of the Most High male or female?

 

[BreadOfLife]

But it's ok for Paul to say women keep their mouth shut.
The sad thing is paul really is saying women keep their mouth shut, but Jesus is not talking about a sex change operation, he is talking about inner becomes outer, male becomes female, and all that

Does "mankind" only represent men? Adam was a man, adam also began as a son of the Most High, are sons of the Most High male or female?

And THIS is the argument you use for your defense of the validity of the "Gospel" of Thomas??
How old ARE you?

The excerpt I showed you from this bogus Gnostic work shows a complete contradiction of the Gospel of Christ.
And Paul never said that women had to "keep their mouths shut" in context. He presented the roles of men and women when it comes to TEACHING. Women (mothers) are the FIRST teachers of their children

With every post, you display a new degree of ignorance that I didn't think was possible . . .

 

[jaybird]

And THIS is the argument you use for your defense of the validity of the "Gospel" of Thomas??
How old ARE you?

The excerpt I showed you from this bogus Gnostic work shows a complete contradiction of the Gospel of Christ.
And Paul never said that women had to "keep their mouths shut" in context. He presented the roles of men and women when it comes to TEACHING. Women (mothers) are the FIRST teachers of their children

With every post, you display a new degree of ignorance that I didn't think was possible . . .

How old am I? I'm sorry but I am not gonna bite on your diversion.
Did you have an answer to those questions? I'm gonna assume no.
So in our roman approved gospels we have
"sons" of the Most High
"Man""kind
Bride "groom"
They support the Thomas saying

And another point to put a nail in the coffin. This argument that Thomas and the Gnostics were bigot women haters does not add up with the facts. We know they views women as equal, unlike rome who rejected women preachers, they had women preachers. We know this from romes own accounts when they massacred the cathar Christians and one of their heresy's was women preachers.

I would say your argument is thoroughly debunked. You may want to go back to asking me how old I am.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How old am I? I'm sorry but I am not gonna bite on your diversion.
Did you have an answer to those questions? I'm gonna assume no.
So in our roman approved gospels we have
"sons" of the Most High
"Man""kind
Bride "groom"
They support the Thomas saying

And another point to put a nail in the coffin. This argument that Thomas and the Gnostics were bigot women haters does not add up with the facts. We know they views women as equal, unlike rome who rejected women preachers, they had women preachers. We know this from romes own accounts when they massacred the cathar Christians and one of their heresy's was women preachers.

I would say your argument is thoroughly debunked. You may want to go back to asking me how old I am.

Your entire rant above in RED is a non sequitur.
NOBODY is calling the Gnostics "bigot women haters".

What I DID do was to show you that the "Gospel" of Thomas is a piece of Gnostic rubbish that contradicts the true Gospel. I gave you an excerpt from this phony document, and compared it with no less than TWO verses of Scripture.
YOU have YET to refute this and have chosen instead to continue your endless litany of idiotic opinions.

Do your HOMEWORK and stop wasting my time . . .

 

[jaybird]

Your entire rant above in RED is a non sequitur.
NOBODY is calling the Gnostics "bigot women haters".

What I DID do was to show you that the "Gospel" of Thomas is a piece of Gnostic rubbish that contradicts the true Gospel. I gave you an excerpt from this phony document, and compared it with no less than TWO verses of Scripture.
YOU have YET to refute this and have chosen instead to continue your endless litany of idiotic opinions.

Do your HOMEWORK and stop wasting my time . . .

ok thats my fualt, you didnt call them bigot women haters. you implied they had no respect for women.

none the less, they did have respect for women. making a female male is no different than angels being called "sons" of the Most High.
"sons" of the Most High
"Man""kind
Bride "groom"
They support the Thomas saying
these are not opinions, they are in the bible.

you and i both know this passage has nothing to do with why the book got rejected by the roman church.
Thomas saying 12
The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
thats why rome rejected Thomas.

 

[jaybird]

more info on James.
This is from the pseudo clementine homilies, the quote is from Peter preaching at Tripoli:

“Wherefore, above all, remember to shun apostle or teacher or prophet who does notfirst accurately compare his preaching with that of James, who was called the brother of my Lord,and to whom was entrusted to administer the church of the Hebrews in Jerusalem.”

if Peter was the leader why would he be telling people to confirm their teachings with James?

now we know why these writings get the "pseudo" attribution. seems like all the early writings that point to James conveniently gets discredited. how lucky for rome, and who discredited them? that would be rome. did the term "conflict of interest" exist back then?

 

[jaybird]

and more info on James. he is called James "the just" most everyone knows that, but he is also called "the just one" by many early church fathers. interesting that when we go to the dead sea scrolls, rome tried to hide that knowledge as well, the teacher of righteousness is often called "the just one". they also had a teacher of rightiousness killed around the same time James died.
James and John B were both Essenes. Jesus was a Nazarene, Nazarenes were heretics according to rome, and they were more than likely part of the Essene sect but with different community rules such as Nazarenes could marry, Essenes could not.

 

[jaybird]

here is Peter, the pope according to some, refusing worship.

Acts 10 25
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”

things sure have changed since those days

 

[Mosheli]

Even if one accepts the claim based on Matthew 16 etc that Peter was leader of the apostles and/or "has the keys or authority", its not certain he was in Rome, and there is no proof outside of (Roman) church writings that the popes really existed and are true successors of Peter. There is evidence that the early popes list really matches the list of Roman emperors and so is not a genuine succession.

The 1st church Ephesus in Revelation 2 is a type of the early church centred at Jerusalem (because Ephesus has many parallels with Jerusalem), so the early church was not centred at Rome.

Jesus or "Melchizedek" is the head of the church, he is the one in who all are united.
Jesus is the rock, Peter/Cephas is only little stone.

Revelation mentions those who claim to be apostles and are not, and calls the clericalists Nicolatines meaning "rule/victory over the lay people". Bible mentions wolves in sheeps clothing.
"Successors of Moses" could be synagogue of Satan?
There is also a chair/throne/seat of Satan.

Which of the apostles was greater? Peter in some ways (he went into the tomb first, etc), Matthew in some ways (wrote first gospel to Hebrews), John in some ways (he out ran Peter to the tomb, saw Revelation, etc), Paul in someways (wrote all those letters, etc), James in some ways (though he was not an apostle). Impossible to compare them.

 

[jaybird]

Even if one accepts the claim based on Matthew 16 etc that Peter was leader of the apostles and/or "has the keys or authority", its not certain he was in Rome, and there is no proof outside of (Roman) church writings that the popes really existed and are true successors of Peter. There is evidence that the early popes list really matches the list of Roman emperors and so is not a genuine succession.

The 1st church Ephesus in Revelation 2 is a type of the early church centred at Jerusalem (because Ephesus has many parallels with Jerusalem), so the early church was not centred at Rome.

Jesus or "Melchizedek" is the head of the church, he is the one in who all are united.
Jesus is the rock, Peter/Cephas is only little stone.

Revelation mentions those who claim to be apostles and are not, and calls the clericalists Nicolatines meaning "rule/victory over the lay people". Bible mentions wolves in sheeps clothing.
"Successors of Moses" could be synagogue of Satan?
There is also a chair/throne/seat of Satan.

Which of the apostles was greater? Peter in some ways (he went into the tomb first, etc), Matthew in some ways (wrote first gospel to Hebrews), John in some ways (he out ran Peter to the tomb, saw Revelation, etc), Paul in someways (wrote all those letters, etc), James in some ways (though he was not an apostle). Impossible to compare them.

When you start researching popes and start seeing the corruption, persecution, destruction, that's a dead give away that a mistake was made.

 

[BreadOfLife]

here is Peter, the pope according to some, refusing worship.

Acts 10 25
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”

things sure have changed since those days

This post PROVES how idiotic your position is.

This is a photo of an ORDINATION. The mend who are being ordained lie face down on the floor during this part of the ceremony to show their complete servitude and surrender to CHRIST.

What a STUPID post . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

ok thats my fualt, you didnt call them bigot women haters. you implied they had no respect for women.

none the less, they did have respect for women. making a female male is no different than angels being called "sons" of the Most High.
"sons" of the Most High
"Man""kind
Bride "groom"
They support the Thomas saying
these are not opinions, they are in the bible.

you and i both know this passage has nothing to do with why the book got rejected by the roman church.
Thomas saying 12
The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you will depart from us. Who is to be our leader?"
Jesus said to them, "Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."
thats why rome rejected Thomas.
more info on James.
This is from the pseudo clementine homilies, the quote is from Peter preaching at Tripoli:

“Wherefore, above all, remember to shun apostle or teacher or prophet who does notfirst accurately compare his preaching with that of James, who was called the brother of my Lord,and to whom was entrusted to administer the church of the Hebrews in Jerusalem.”

if Peter was the leader why would he be telling people to confirm their teachings with James?

now we know why these writings get the "pseudo" attribution. seems like all the early writings that point to James conveniently gets discredited. how lucky for rome, and who discredited them? that would be rome. did the term "conflict of interest" exist back then?

and more info on James. he is called James "the just" most everyone knows that, but he is also called "the just one" by many early church fathers. interesting that when we go to the dead sea scrolls, rome tried to hide that knowledge as well, the teacher of righteousness is often called "the just one". they also had a teacher of rightiousness killed around the same time James died.
James and John B were both Essenes. Jesus was a Nazarene, Nazarenes were heretics according to rome, and they were more than likely part of the Essene sect but with different community rules such as Nazarenes could marry, Essenes could not.

And once again - YOUR support of the phony Gnostic document known as the "Gospel of Thomas" speaks to your total ignorance.
There is not a single reputable scholar who supports this nonsense - which is why YOU do.

Let me educate you on the Gnostics . . .
- The Gnostics did NOT believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
- Gnostics did NOT believe that in the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.
- The Gnostics banned marriage as "Evil" and forbade it for ALL.
- The Gnostics forbade the eating of ANY animal as "evil".
- The Gnostics taught and believed in EVOLUTION.
- The Gnostics believed that God is represented by two distinct and separate persons, our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother.
- The Gnostics believed that we are the literal spiritual offspring of God, and have the capacity to become just like our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother if we so choose.
- Gnostics did NOT believe in original sin.
- Gnostics did NOT believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ,
- Gnostics did NOT believe in a devil which leads people into sin.

THAT is the sect that YOU adhere to as having the "truth".
And you DON'T see how ridiculously stupid your claims are??

 

[jaybird]

This post PROVES how idiotic your position is.

This is a photo of an ORDINATION. The mend who are being ordained lie face down on the floor during this part of the ceremony to show their complete servitude and surrender to CHRIST.

What a STUPID post . . .

You can call it what ever you like, we can call it a flock of ducks on muddy bayou, the pic is still men bowing to the pope.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can call it what ever you like, we can call it a flock of ducks on muddy bayou, the pic is still men bowing to the pope.

Nope - I corrected you. This happens at EVERY ordination.
I've had the privilege of attending TWO ordinations and it is the most solemn part of the ceremony when they fully surrender their lives in service to Christ.

You go CAUGHT in another idiotic lie . . .

 

[jaybird]

And once again - YOUR support of the phony Gnostic document known as the "Gospel of Thomas" speaks to your total ignorance.
There is not a single reputable scholar who supports this nonsense - which is why YOU do.

Let me educate you on the Gnostics . . .
- The Gnostics did NOT believe that the Bible is the Word of God.
- Gnostics did NOT believe that in the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.
- The Gnostics banned marriage as "Evil" and forbade it for ALL.
- The Gnostics forbade the eating of ANY animal as "evil".
- The Gnostics taught and believed in EVOLUTION.
- The Gnostics believed that God is represented by two distinct and separate persons, our Heavenly Father and our Heavenly Mother.
- The Gnostics believed that we are the literal spiritual offspring of God, and have the capacity to become just like our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother if we so choose.
- Gnostics did NOT believe in original sin.
- Gnostics did NOT believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ,
- Gnostics did NOT believe in a devil which leads people into sin.

THAT is the sect that YOU adhere to as having the "truth".
And you DON'T see how ridiculously stupid your claims are??

Blah blah, who cares. Show me what they did. If their teachings were truly against Jesus we should see that in the Gnostics themselves, where are their evil acts? Did they burn people alive, persecute, manipulate, live debauched lives? Judge them by their fruit.