Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Ronald Nolette]

.
Continued From No.1054


There's a spiritual term in JW jargon called "life force". This element of a
sentient being's existence doesn't expire at death; and can be transferred
from one form to an entirely different form.

For example in the JW religion, Michael the archangel's life force was
transferred to Mary's ovum so an angel could come into the world as a man;
and then later when his human form passed away on the cross, Michael's life
force was returned to its angel form so he could be his old self again.

Life force isn't nondescript, viz: when Michael's life force was transferred to
Mary's ovum, he retained the continuity of his individuality.

Now, it seems reasonable to me that if angels exist by means of life force,
then humans probably do too. That suggests the possibility that a human's
life force can be transferred to a different form in a manner similar to
transferring an angel's life force to a different form.

That helps lend some credibility to the story told at Luke 16:19-31. All three
of the men in that story are deceased, yet there they are; fully conscious in
the afterlife.

• Ecc 12:7 . . Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be
and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.

The million-dollar question is: What comes next for a Jehovah's Witness' life
force when it gets back in God's hands?
_

Well MIchael did not become Jesus.

and this life force that the JW's teach smells like a variant of reincarnation.

 

[marks]

Well MIchael did not become Jesus.

and this life force that the JW's teach smells like a variant of reincarnation.

Transmigration of the soul, I think this is known as.

Much love!

 

[Keiw]

Again action taken by a religion against those that leave the denomination is characteristic of cults. People have the right to change what they believe and join other denominations with out harassment.

Using the scriptures to protect these people is despicable!



Is this a justification! And you are right child molestation and rape occurs in and out of any denomination. But some are more well known for it than others. The Catholics have been dealing with this for centuries with no resolution in sight. And like the Catholics sexual abuse by the Jehovah's Witnesses is worldwide and has too many occurrences and witnesses that have testified in court for it not to be true. And again it has been going on for a long time. The two witnesses policy only exasperates the problem and proves there is no resolution in sight. I have never heard of a kingdom hall taking the testimony of a victim.

The mother of the child I talked about had left the Jehovah's Witnesses and divorced her husband and was ordered by court to allow the father to have here on every other weekend. And the abuse continued... She talked to the kingdom hall and they just denied it. But as it is the court accepted the testimony of a child that was so articulate and intelligent as well as the video taped discussion during the intervention. The father is serving 20 years in prison. Of course the kingdom hall protested trying to protect the perv.

I already know you cannot prove your words, you just listen to ones heart that has turned to hatred and believe their words. There is a great example of that in the bible-The Israelite spiritual teachers hated Jesus-then they taught he got his power from demons--It wasnt truth was it? Thats what hearts filled with hatred do--lie.
Everyone knows paedophiles are in every place on earth where they can gain trust and have access to children. The JW,s DO NOT condone it ever. They council the parents to go to the police. I know that is fact. My sisters son was molested, they counciled her to go to the police.

 

[Keiw]

No

YOu say it proves your point only because you havew been indoctrinated to think that way. There is nothing in Scripture that sayd Jesus name was equal to angelic names. It could be just as much an inferior name- Scripture doesn't say. You are guessing.

And remember teh name Jesus is God the Sons name since His humanity!

Heb 1:3-4--He( Jesus) isthe reflection of his( God) glory,and the exact representation( image) of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he made a purification for our sins sat down on the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.
4) so he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Thus anyone who understands English can see 100% without inheriting that name from God he was equal to the angels. He became better when he inherited that name.
Psalm 45:7--Jesus has a God--partners= angels.

 

[Grailhunter]

I already know you cannot prove your words, you just listen to ones heart that has turned to hatred and believe their words. There is a great example of that in the bible-The Israelite spiritual teachers hated Jesus-then they taught he got his power from demons--It wasnt truth was it? Thats what hearts filled with hatred do--lie.

Wrong again. I don't hate anyone.

Everyone knows paedophiles are in every place on earth where they can gain trust and have access to children. The JW,s DO NOT condone it ever. They council the parents to go to the police. I know that is fact. My sisters son was molested, they counciled her to go to the police.

Again I agree that child molesters are everywhere....in and out of the Church. But they are more prevalent in some denominations. For some it is a historical thing....hundreds of victims over the centuries. There guilt and intent can be seen to the extent they try to protect the molester.

Again perspective. I would like to think that some kingdom halls like the one my aunt went to, would not put up with such things. But the two witness policy would hide and protect the child molesters and this seems to be consistent. And in the Jehovah's Witness religion there is no fear of punishment....no Hell. Live as they wish.

 

[JohnPaul]

Pedophiles are the lowest scum of the Earth, their punishment should be Death.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane
It was a very long time ago and my conclusions were not just defined from my encounters with this member of my husbands family. Right from an early start in my Christian life I tested things - his words impacted me , so it sparked a questioning time.
Our communications spanned many years and
It ultimately led me to ‘ look into ‘ things for myself.

Not a bad thing to “look into” whatever questions you want answered.....right? That is what led me out of Christendom and into the Bible for my answers. My questions were deep and the church never had answers to them....only excuses for not having them.

Apparently they had excuses for everything that they were not doing and even for the things that they were doing that were contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

e.g. I wanted to know why the church was hand in glove with the political system and it’s wars and bloodshed, since Jesus and his apostles taught otherwise. (Matthew 5:43-44; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21)

I wanted to know why the church did not send out disciples to preach like Jesus did....taking the message out to the people rather than waiting for the people to come to them? (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20 Matthew 28:19-20)

I wanted to know why there was such an inordinate emphasis on money, when Jesus said “you received free, give free”.....nothing was free in my church. You had to pay the minister for baptisms, weddings or funerals and the plate was passed twice so that the minister could live off the congregations donations. Everything he had was paid for by the congregation...his house, his car, all his bills...even his lawns were mowed by some willing volunteer. Yet we never even had a personal visit from him.

It was a known fact that we were we celebrating pagan holidays along with their pagan customs, but somehow it didn’t matter as long as we were putting a thin veneer of Christianity over them so that no one thought to question why Christendom had no holidays (holy days) of their own.....every single one was based on things that had nothing to do with the worship of the true God...and everything to do with the worship of false gods. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) All I got was justification.

When Jesus established the Christian congregation, which eventually separated from Judaism, God showed the Jewish people that his favour had shifted from that corrupt religious system to a small band of Christ’s disciples who came to know the truth of Jesus’ teachings in their heart.....not of their own will, but because God “drew” them to it. (John 6:44, 65) God chooses us as much as we choose him. Those who are not afraid to separate from a majority held view to an inconvenient truth....and the ostracism that was bound to come from agents of the devil, masquerading as God’s servants. (John 15:18-21, Matthew 23:13-15)

I had no idea how indoctrinated I was until I started to study the Bible for myself. It exposed Christendom for what she really was...a disunited rabble who cannot agree on anything...hopelessly divided and slaves to the traditions of men, just as the Pharisees were. Christianity was to become a global brotherhood, united by Christ’s teachings in peace and love....do you see Christendom like that?

As part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said....
“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)

Do you see the churches preaching about God’s kingdom? When I ask people what God’s Kingdom is....all I hear is crickets....
Because Christendom is clueless about the kingdom, they cannot preach about it....and this, despite parroting off the Lord’s Prayer every week in their churches. How do you pray that prayer which is a request for God’s Kingdom to “come” if you cannot explain what it means?

This is what Russell did, he saw massive discrepancies in Christendom’s teachings but he was not alone. He found others who were just as curious as he was about so many things in the scriptures that did not gel with what Christendom taught. And yes he found that the Adventist’s were onto something which prompted him to do a lot of research. His Bible knowledge made him an excellent debater....and he took on many a clergyman and wiped the floor with them.....they hated him with a passion. Jesus said that was to be expected. (John 15:18-19)

Russell is not the “founder” of Jehovah’s Witnesses....he was the spokesman and he had the personal circumstances at the time to promote the truths that his group were exposing. They started to publish the Watchtower magazine, which has continued to this day exposing the false doctrines of Christendom, and promoting the truth about God’s Kingdom. Many people responded to what they heard, because the truth “sets you free”. You don’t even know how shackled you are to Christendom’s beliefs until you break the chains.

There is no trinity....there is no immortal soul....there is no heaven or hell as opposite destination for good and bad people....there is no truth in Christendom’s churches because she is a product of the devil....the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable....an awful counterfeit with blood on its hands. (Isaiah 1:15) The deceiver “masquerades as an angel of light” so unless you know what you believe and why you believe it, he can steal your heart with what appeals. It’s what he has done from the beginning.

So if God is the one who chooses us, and Jesus said that “few” are on the cramped and narrow road to life (Matthew 7:13-14)....what is that telling you? Will any of us know know until the judgment whether we have the qualities that God is looking for in the citizens he allows into his kingdom? A label doesn’t mean much, but unity and peace certainly do. (2 Peter 3:11-14)

 

[Keiw]

Wrong again. I don't hate anyone.



Again I agree that child molesters are everywhere....in and out of the Church. But they are more prevalent in some denominations. For some it is a historical thing....hundreds of victims over the centuries. There guilt and intent can be seen to the extent they try to protect the molester.

Again perspective. I would like to think that some kingdom halls like the one my aunt went to, would not put up with such things. But the two witness policy would hide and protect the child molesters and this seems to be consistent. And in the Jehovah's Witness religion there is no fear of punishment....no Hell. Live as they wish.

I didnt say you were the hater. The ones you listened to on that matter are hate filled hearts.
Not one who practices sin will enter Gods kingdom. I have seen some pretty weak kingdom halls myself. Did you see the words of Jesus to the 7 congregations in Revelation? Not one was perfect, they all had problems. Satan is powerful, he knows exactly which buttons to push on all mortals. God requires 2 witnesses, its his will. But do not ever think another parent would allow their child near one who was confronted of being a paedophile if it couldnt be proved. People arent stupid.
God will punish all who sin, thats a guarantee--In his quote an eye for an eye--did not mean go take your brothers eye if he took yours, you would be the same as him who you didnt like what he did, It actually meant--justice will prevail, even if God had to carry out that justice. So live as they wish is not anything found in the JW,s.

 

[JohnPaul]

Not a bad thing to “look into” whatever questions you want answered.....right? That is what led me out of Christendom and into the Bible for my answers. My questions were deep and the church never had answers to them....only excuses for not having them.

Apparently they had excuses for everything that they were not doing and even for the things that they were doing that were contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

e.g. I wanted to know why the church was hand in glove with the political system and it’s wars and bloodshed, since Jesus and his apostles taught otherwise. (Matthew 5:43-44; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21)

I wanted to know why the church did not send out disciples to preach like Jesus did....taking the message out to the people rather than waiting for the people to come to them? (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20 Matthew 28:19-20)

I wanted to know why there was such an inordinate emphasis on money, when Jesus said “you received free, give free”.....nothing was free in my church. You had to pay the minister for baptisms, weddings or funerals and the plate was passed twice so that the minister could live off the congregations donations. Everything he had was paid for by the congregation...his house, his car, all his bills...even his lawns were mowed by some willing volunteer. Yet we never even had a personal visit from him.

It was a known fact that we were we celebrating pagan holidays along with their pagan customs, but somehow it didn’t matter as long as we were putting a thin veneer of Christianity over them so that no one thought to question why Christendom had no holidays (holy days) of their own.....every single one was based on things that had nothing to do with the worship of the true God...and everything to do with the worship of false gods. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) All I got was justification.

When Jesus established the Christian congregation, which eventually separated from Judaism, God showed the Jewish people that his favour had shifted from that corrupt religious system to a small band of Christ’s disciples who came to know the truth of Jesus’ teachings in their heart.....not of their own will, but because God “drew” them to it. (John 6:44, 65) God chooses us as much as we choose him. Those who are not afraid to separate from a majority held view to an inconvenient truth....and the ostracism that was bound to come from agents of the devil, masquerading as God’s servants. (John 15:18-21, Matthew 23:13-15)

I had no idea how indoctrinated I was until I started to study the Bible for myself. It exposed Christendom for what she really was...a disunited rabble who cannot agree on anything...hopelessly divided and slaves to the traditions of men, just as the Pharisees were. Christianity was to become a global brotherhood, united by Christ’s teachings in peace and love....do you see Christendom like that?

As part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said....
“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)

Do you see the churches preaching about God’s kingdom? When I ask people what God’s Kingdom is....all I hear is crickets....
Because Christendom is clueless about the kingdom, they cannot preach about it....and this, despite parroting off the Lord’s Prayer every week in their churches. How do you pray that prayer which is a request for God’s Kingdom to “come” if you cannot explain what it means?

This is what Russell did, he saw massive discrepancies in Christendom’s teachings but he was not alone. He found others who were just as curious as he was about so many things in the scriptures that did not gel with what Christendom taught. And yes he found that the Adventist’s were onto something which prompted him to do a lot of research. His Bible knowledge made him an excellent debater....and he took on many a clergyman and wiped the floor with them.....they hated him with a passion. Jesus said that was to be expected. (John 15:18-19)

Russell is not the “founder” of Jehovah’s Witnesses....he was the spokesman and he had the personal circumstances at the time to promote the truths that his group were exposing. They started to publish the Watchtower magazine, which has continued to this day exposing the false doctrines of Christendom, and promoting the truth about God’s Kingdom. Many people responded to what they heard, because the truth “sets you free”. You don’t even know how shackled you are to Christendom’s beliefs until you break the chains.

There is no trinity....there is no immortal soul....there is no heaven or hell as opposite destination for good and bad people....there is no truth in Christendom’s churches because she is a product of the devil....the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable....an awful counterfeit with blood on its hands. (Isaiah 1:15) The deceiver “masquerades as an angel of light” so unless you know what you believe and why you believe it, he can steal your heart with what appeals. It’s what he has done from the beginning.

So if God is the one who chooses us, and Jesus said that “few” are on the cramped and narrow road to life (Matthew 7:13-14)....what is that telling you? Will any of us know know until the judgment whether we have the qualities that God is looking for in the citizens he allows into his kingdom? A label doesn’t mean much, but unity and peace certainly do. (2 Peter 3:11-14)

Aunty Jane my dear sister why entertain these people who have their stereotypical minds made up? You and I know and believe the truth, not gossip or hearsay.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Heb 1:3-4--He( Jesus) isthe reflection of his( God) glory,and the exact representation( image) of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he made a purification for our sins sat down on the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.
4) so he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

Thus anyone who understands English can see 100% without inheriting that name from God he was equal to the angels. He became better when he inherited that name.
Psalm 45:7--Jesus has a God--partners= angels.

I can't accept this gobbledy gook from the New Word Mistranslation for it does not follow th e original language.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Express image is charakter and means far more than a representation or image.

And all the passage says is that Jesus has a name that is better than the angels. He could have been lower or already superior. That information cannot be drawn by this passage.

and you rcommentary of Psalm 45:7 is drawing a conclusion without evidence.

 

[Keiw]

Not a bad thing to “look into” whatever questions you want answered.....right? That is what led me out of Christendom and into the Bible for my answers. My questions were deep and the church never had answers to them....only excuses for not having them.

Apparently they had excuses for everything that they were not doing and even for the things that they were doing that were contrary to Jesus’ teachings.

e.g. I wanted to know why the church was hand in glove with the political system and it’s wars and bloodshed, since Jesus and his apostles taught otherwise. (Matthew 5:43-44; 2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21)

I wanted to know why the church did not send out disciples to preach like Jesus did....taking the message out to the people rather than waiting for the people to come to them? (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20 Matthew 28:19-20)

I wanted to know why there was such an inordinate emphasis on money, when Jesus said “you received free, give free”.....nothing was free in my church. You had to pay the minister for baptisms, weddings or funerals and the plate was passed twice so that the minister could live off the congregations donations. Everything he had was paid for by the congregation...his house, his car, all his bills...even his lawns were mowed by some willing volunteer. Yet we never even had a personal visit from him.

It was a known fact that we were we celebrating pagan holidays along with their pagan customs, but somehow it didn’t matter as long as we were putting a thin veneer of Christianity over them so that no one thought to question why Christendom had no holidays (holy days) of their own.....every single one was based on things that had nothing to do with the worship of the true God...and everything to do with the worship of false gods. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) All I got was justification.

When Jesus established the Christian congregation, which eventually separated from Judaism, God showed the Jewish people that his favour had shifted from that corrupt religious system to a small band of Christ’s disciples who came to know the truth of Jesus’ teachings in their heart.....not of their own will, but because God “drew” them to it. (John 6:44, 65) God chooses us as much as we choose him. Those who are not afraid to separate from a majority held view to an inconvenient truth....and the ostracism that was bound to come from agents of the devil, masquerading as God’s servants. (John 15:18-21, Matthew 23:13-15)

I had no idea how indoctrinated I was until I started to study the Bible for myself. It exposed Christendom for what she really was...a disunited rabble who cannot agree on anything...hopelessly divided and slaves to the traditions of men, just as the Pharisees were. Christianity was to become a global brotherhood, united by Christ’s teachings in peace and love....do you see Christendom like that?

As part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said....
“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)

Do you see the churches preaching about God’s kingdom? When I ask people what God’s Kingdom is....all I hear is crickets....
Because Christendom is clueless about the kingdom, they cannot preach about it....and this, despite parroting off the Lord’s Prayer every week in their churches. How do you pray that prayer which is a request for God’s Kingdom to “come” if you cannot explain what it means?

This is what Russell did, he saw massive discrepancies in Christendom’s teachings but he was not alone. He found others who were just as curious as he was about so many things in the scriptures that did not gel with what Christendom taught. And yes he found that the Adventist’s were onto something which prompted him to do a lot of research. His Bible knowledge made him an excellent debater....and he took on many a clergyman and wiped the floor with them.....they hated him with a passion. Jesus said that was to be expected. (John 15:18-19)

Russell is not the “founder” of Jehovah’s Witnesses....he was the spokesman and he had the personal circumstances at the time to promote the truths that his group were exposing. They started to publish the Watchtower magazine, which has continued to this day exposing the false doctrines of Christendom, and promoting the truth about God’s Kingdom. Many people responded to what they heard, because the truth “sets you free”. You don’t even know how shackled you are to Christendom’s beliefs until you break the chains.

There is no trinity....there is no immortal soul....there is no heaven or hell as opposite destination for good and bad people....there is no truth in Christendom’s churches because she is a product of the devil....the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable....an awful counterfeit with blood on its hands. (Isaiah 1:15) The deceiver “masquerades as an angel of light” so unless you know what you believe and why you believe it, he can steal your heart with what appeals. It’s what he has done from the beginning.

So if God is the one who chooses us, and Jesus said that “few” are on the cramped and narrow road to life (Matthew 7:13-14)....what is that telling you? Will any of us know know until the judgment whether we have the qualities that God is looking for in the citizens he allows into his kingdom? A label doesn’t mean much, but unity and peace certainly do. (2 Peter 3:11-14)

TO ALL.----Yes unity and peace not to mention love amongst themselves. At 1 Cor 1:10= Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) no division--then why are there 34,000 religions claiming to be christian? Jesus started 1, he is only with 1. All 34,000 claim to have holy spirit, If that were truth then why all the confusion? Because only 1 gets holy spirit, the one that has Jesus.
Here is a simple way to see if yours are the teachers who have Jesus--1 simple teaching from Jesus= Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--- Thus the teachers that have Jesus, without fail teach every utterance from God to the flock, year after year, it never stops= OT-NT--The only way this can get accomplished is like this--This weeks bible reading= Genesis chap 1-3--Then discussed at the meeting together, first the teacher explains the major points, then could ask the flock what they liked about the reading, that way all get different perspectives and learn a lot, next week Genesis 4-6, etc,etc,etc, it never stops. Sometimes 2 chapters if they are long-- This is the only way it can be done without fail. So now all can look at their teachers and see if they listened to Jesus and have him.

 

[Keiw]

I can't accept this gobbledy gook from the New Word Mistranslation for it does not follow th e original language.

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Express image is charakter and means far more than a representation or image.

And all the passage says is that Jesus has a name that is better than the angels. He could have been lower or already superior. That information cannot be drawn by this passage.

and you rcommentary of Psalm 45:7 is drawing a conclusion without evidence.

Even your bible--shows clearly, he became better than the angels after he inherited that name. Majesty means Jesus' superior, it was he who made the name Jesus above other names. It was he who gave Jesus the authority in heaven and on earth. Only one superior can give another authority.

 

[Triumph1300]

Wrong again. I don't hate anyone.

That's the way it works these day, Grailhuinter.
When one disagrees you are right away classified as a "hater".
Not just in religious circles, it's the same in politics these days.
They will use the "hate card". Sad! That's how satan works as well.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well Jesus is infalliblew, the Watchtower or any man made organization is not.

The Watchtower is a Bible Society. It has never claimed infallibility. It is a legal entity that just prints Bibles and literature. It is the Bible that teaches us...it contains all we need to know about God and his son.

Correct. and there is still a veil over their eyes at the reading of Moses.

Jesus lifted that veil whilst still being Jewish. His disciples were in no doubt about who he was as stated in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6. Why do people keep ignoring this clear statement? Do the apostles contradict one another in God’s inspired word? Or is it that some just read into scripture what was never there? ALL the Bible writers were Jewish, and all wrote “from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.” There is no trinity in the Bible.

Incorrect. Teh triads that were common in those ancient days were "three" separate gods with three separate natures. YHWH was saying something very different. Grammatically this sentence is nonsensical unless.

Hang on there.....if you worship “God the Father” (which designation is clearly stated in scripture) and you have “God the Son”....and “God the Holy Spirit” (which are not found in a single passage)...you have three gods. That is polytheism and in direct contravention to the First Commandment. You have two other "gods" occupying the Father's place, supposedly co-equal and co-eternal....?

I cannot explain why your tools do not have them

They are the ones used by Christendom.....please explain that.

Man is made in YHWH"S image. YOu bel;ieve Jesus was Michael prior ot His birth and the angles are not in the image of God. so that is a falsehood.

You assume that Michael is 'just an angel' when that cannot be the case. He is called “THE Archangel” because he is unique....there are none who are his equal. Jesus was said to have been "made a little lower than the angels" in his human form, so how on earth can he be both God and man? How can an immortal, at the same time be mortal? One cannot die, but the other can.....? It's nonsense....how much tap dancing do you need to do to force the Bible to say what it never did?

the human part of Jesus is the only begotten child of the Father! This part is true

But monogenes does not mean unique!

The word “monogenes” is used in the Bible to denote an “only child”, and its not a special word used just for Jesus....and since a son cannot at the same time be his own father, trinitarians have some fancy gymnastics to perform when trying to explain their own confusing beliefs.

Why does Jesus HAVE to be GOD in order to redeem mankind? Can you explain the mechanics of redemption so that 'Jesus being God' fits the profile? What did the Jews understand about redemption?

Adding the word other brings damnation to the Watchtower! It is not in Scripture and should not appear in anyones writings who claims to love God!

LOL...the scripture says the same thing regardless.....Jesus is “the beginning of God’s creation”.
Read Revelation 3:14 where Jesus himself says that he is the “beginning” or “origin”.....the start of God’s creation. It does not say the “beginner” or the “originator” although Christendom would like to see it that way.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes Jesus is Gods firstborn- but firstborn also had another common usage in Jesus' day that the Watchtower ignores- it means heir! The firstborn were heirs to their Fathers wealth. When people spoke in those days and used the term "first-born" it was understood they were the heir!

So you can ignore all the passages that say Jesus came from heaven as God’s “only begotten son” just so that you can pretend that it doesn’t mean what it says. Are you hearing yourself?

Jesus is called god, is equal to God and seeing Jesus is seeing god. He existed as God prior to becoming human. I am simply quoting fact of the bible.

No sorry, you are quoting Christendom’s interpretation of the Bible here. Seeing Jesus reflecting his Father's personality and teaching what his Father taught him to say and do, is not Jesus being "God"..."theos" is a word used for any god or goddess or even those divinely authorized by Yahweh to act in his behalf. Jesus said that the judges in Israel were "gods". (John 10:31-36) Scripturally, you do not have a leg to stand on since there is not one scripture that says Jesus is Yahweh.

And what JW's commonly do is confuse Jesus position with His nature.

Teh Father is above all! He is th emost exalted!
then comes Jesus and then the Holy Spirit.

Again...are you hearing yourself? Where will I find such notions in the scriptures? Nowhere is the holy spirit ever called "God"....nowhere will I find "God the Son" ever written......trinitarians made these up to support a doctrine that is nowhere found in scripture. You are determined to make scripture say what you want it to say....

But while the Father is greater in position and authority He is not more God as to essence or nature as the Son and Spirit!

They are all equally god though do not have the same authority.

You can believe that if you wish but the Bible does not back up your beliefs.

Jesus was known to be God the son long before teh RCC became. But if you have the manuscript evidence to back up your mouth with its claims that English translations are skewed- I am more than willing to see teh evidence.

Otherwise it is just verbal methane.

Where is "God the Son" ever written?....please show us....
There are a lot of unpleasant horse droppings on these boards.....

If you love the KJV, perhaps you can explain the discrepancy between John 1:1 and John 1:18?
John 1:1 is the favorite "go to" to support the trinity, but what does John 1:18 say?
"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

So as we see in the Interlinear, the man Jesus was "with" "ho theos" but he was only called "theos" in John 1:1.

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
There are two "gods" in this verse but only one is Yahweh. (ho theos) "Theos" on its own can mean a god or one with divine authority.

Now look at how John 1:18 is rendered....?
Apart from the fact that it says "no one has ever seen God"....how many saw Jesus whom trinitarians say was God incarnate.

"No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai."

Do we see the word "son" ("hyios") there? Not in the Greek we don't.....but we see it in the English translation. "Monogenes theos" is literally, "only begotten god".....so why the discrepancy even in your KJV?

If "theos" is rendered "son" in verse 18, then verse 1 should be rendered the same way...
And if the divine name had still been in use...John 1:1 would have stated....
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine".

There is no trinity there except what the RCC introduced into official church doctrine almost 400 years after Christ was executed.

If you can't see it, then nothing that is said to you will change your mind.....God knows you don't want it changed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That's the way it works these day, Grailhuinter.
When one disagrees you are right away classified as a "hater".
Not just in religious circles, it's the same in politics these days.
They will use the "hate card". Sad! That's how satan works as well.

The only time people get classified as 'haters' is when they slander us without knowing if what they are saying is even true.....they just parrot off what they are told and it doesn't seem to matter if it is just one biased side of a story.

Would you like someone to do that to you? Haters killed Jesus but they were so sure that he was everything the Pharisees said he was....(Matthew 27:25) They ended up cursing themselves and their children with his blood.....how hard is it to get the truth from both sides and then make up your mind if it is true? If you can't hear both sides, my grandmother had a very true saying about gossip...."do not believe anything you hear....and only half of what you see".

 

[Grailhunter]

The only time people get classified as 'haters' is when they slander us without knowing if what they are saying is even true.....they just parrot off what they are told and it doesn't seem to matter if it is just one biased side of a story.

That so funny! How do you know when your beliefs are wrong? When you feel like the truth slanders you!

 

[Rita]

Aunty Jane my dear sister why entertain these people who have their stereotypical minds made up? You and I know and believe the truth, not gossip or hearsay.

As you are addressing this from the post where my post is quoted I must presume that you are addressing my comments about Russell . In all honesty none of us were alive when he was and so any information about him comes from other people and other sources. I did actually hear about him for a JW and was also told that modern day JW’ s renounce him. So it would appear that their are different views and thoughts about him within the organisation.
‘ These people ‘ !!
‘ stereotypical minds made up ‘ ………….
Pride and hypocrisy comes in many forms !

 

[Rita]

Hi Aunty Jane
I have questioned many things within the churches I have been apart of, but your evaluation is based on your own experiences and the limited amount of churches you have weighed up. Evangelism was always part of my experience when I was part of a local congregation. I am no longer part of a church congregation , but I remain ‘ in the church ‘
I wonder why you are here on the forum, it can’t be for fellowship as you regard most of us as serving satan, which, for me places you on dodgy ground. I am and have been led by the Holy Spirit.
Wonder when you asked the Lord into your life and received The Holy Spirit- what’s your real testimony, not what led you to the Kingdom Hall. I was 23years old and can still remember that day, that moment when God made it clear that he was interested in my life and brought me to my knees in tears. I had been searching for a few months after randomly having a conviction to go to a church, didn’t understand a word that was spoken but week by week the same conviction burned into me ……until that day as I studied and read Ephesians chapter one.
Regardless of your evaluation I stand on my testimony and on the work of the Holy Spirit that has guided and led me forward ever since that moment.
I am reading Micah Wilders testimony at the moment , much of what he relays about the Mormons align with what you convey about the JWs -obviously they believe different things but they maintain they are the one true church on earth , go door to door and evangelise to Christian’s with the aim of converting them.
Rita

 

[JohnPaul]

As you are addressing this from the post where my post is quoted I must presume that you are addressing my comments about Russell . In all honesty none of us were alive when he was and so any information about him comes from other people and other sources. I did actually hear about him for a JW and was also told that modern day JW’ s renounce him. So it would appear that their are different views and thoughts about him within the organisation.
‘ These people ‘ !!
‘ stereotypical minds made up ‘ ………….
Pride and hypocrisy comes in many forms !

I was not Rita, I have no quarrel with you Ma'am.

It was not in response to the post Aunty Jane quoted, it was a response to others way of thinking, I admire you and respect you Rita, I would never post anything towards you, trust me.

And I am not prideful, but a simple and humble man.


God Bless