Are Protestants "saved? "

[Yehren]

So, Catholics maintaining that they are the true church, and some Pentecostal groups saying they are in the centre of God's will and that anyone who doesn't subscribe to their theology is not part of the body of Christ.

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

 

[Paul Christensen]

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Pope Francis made a statement about his personal faith, and it looked very Christ-centred, which made me think that there is more to him than what appears on the surface.

 

[Brakelite]

Pope Francis made a statement about his personal faith, and it looked very Christ-centred, which made me think that there is more to him than what appears on the surface.

What Catholics mean when they talk about spiritual matters can be very different to what you or I mean. Despite their use of the same words and phrases.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 4:2–4 (NKJV): For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt

Quite clear

Quite clear indeed. People need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-4 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the word "justified." Paul uses the term to describe the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. On the other hand, James uses the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is shown or evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (barren, unfruitful) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Quite clear indeed. People need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine. The harmony of Romans 4:2-4 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the word "justified." Paul uses the term to describe the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. On the other hand, James uses the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is shown or evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (barren, unfruitful) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Some people are stuck on one passage and can not come off it, because it’s all they have, and will continue to push that down people throats as if it is the end all passage

they forget the rest of scripture, and refuse to take the rest of the passage they use in context to see what James really said, and can not hear others when they show them

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As you now realize, God says:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That's good enough for me. It should be good enough for you.



Let's see what God says about that...

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?



Yep. We are justfied by works and faith, as God tells you. I think you should believe Him.

Well let’s see

God wrote both romans and James

I guess God Is an author of confusion

good luck in all your works, I will see you in heaven (or will I?)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! God can justify us by faith because He sees the works in advance. But people here want to justify themselves based on their beliefs....which is an idea that is very foreign to truth.

Wrong

god want to justify us on our living faith, not a mere belief, a trust in him

you people are professing a trust in self not God

shame on you

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

What Catholics mean when they talk about spiritual matters can be very different to what you or I mean. Desire their use of the same words and phrases.

I would not believe anything that Pope Frances said at all. oh boy is he is a cunning bugger, but I can see straight through him.

 

[Yehren]

Pope Francis made a statement about his personal faith, and it looked very Christ-centred, which made me think that there is more to him than what appears on the surface.

I knew, when he chose the name "Francis" that this man would be a pastor, a servant of the people of God. His address to the Curia, telling them to stop taking themselves so seriously, and to stop being such sourpusses, wasn't received well at the top, but it signaled a refreshing change in the Church. He's not perfect; like the rest of us, he has flaws, but he is the right man to lead at this time.

It's not often one encounters a man like Francis at the top. While he is an accomplished scholar, he knows what it's like among the humblest of God's people. He was, for a time, a bouncer in a tough area of Buenos Aires.

And he acts as though he takes Christ's words to heart. Not perfect, but the right man for these times.

 

[Yehren]

Well let’s see

God wrote both romans and James

Yes. So we are saved by faith and by works. Neither Romans nor James denies the other. The only confusion is among those who try to put their own meanings into God's word. Those people are professing a trust in self, not God.

I guess God Is an author of confusion

No, God didn't confuse you. You're confusing yourself.

good luck in all your works, I will see you in heaven (or will I?)

If you love God with all your heart and love your fellow man, then you will. Faith and works will proceed from those without effort. I hope so. It will be interesting to see your mix of indescribable joy, coupled with your shock and amazement at all the sorts other people who will be there with you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes. So we are saved by faith and by works. Neither Romans nor James denies the other. The only confusion is among those who try to put their own meanings into God's word. Those people are professing a trust in self, not God.



No, God didn't confuse you. You're confusing yourself.



If you love God with all your heart and love your fellow man, then you will. Faith and works will proceed from those without effort. I hope so. It will be interesting to see your mix of indescribable joy, coupled with your shock and amazement at all the sorts other people who will be there with you.

Your totally confused

Romans 4 said no works period. As did EPH 2. And I have not even touched in Titus 3

 

[Yehren]

Your totally confused

Could you rewrite that in English? I realize that you think the Bible contradicts itself. But it can't. It's the word of God. If He says that one is saved by works and faith, then it is true. Set your pride aside, and let it be His way:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Could you rewrite that in English? I realize that you think the Bible contradicts itself. But it can't. It's the word of God. If He says that one is saved by works and faith, then it is true. Set your pride aside, and let it be His way:

Yeah I can

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Romans 4: 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one Who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,


Both written by God

one says faith plus works

One says faith but no works,

they either contradict and scripture is a lie

or you better resolve the

I have resolved the issue

your stuck on one saying and have yet to resolve the issue

good luck

if you do not speak to romans 4 or eph 2 or titus 3. This will be my last response to you

 

[Yehren]

One says faith but no works,

No, it does not. Your revision is not what it says. Show us where it says one is not justified by works.

God says very plainly that one is justified by works:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You can continue to deny His words, but it won't change a thing. Set your pride aside, and let it be His way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, it does not. Your revision is not what it says. Show us where it says one is not justified by works.

God says very plainly that one is justified by works:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You can continue to deny His words, but it won't change a thing. Set your pride aside, and let it be His way.

I warned ya

good day sir

I will pray for you

 

[Yehren]

I warned ya

good day sir

I will pray for you

I can always use prayers. I'll be praying for you,too. Enjoy your weekend.

 

[Brakelite]

I knew, when he chose the name "Francis" that this man would be a pastor, a servant of the people of God. His address to the Curia, telling them to stop taking themselves so seriously, and to stop being such sourpusses, wasn't received well at the top, but it signaled a refreshing change in the Church. He's not perfect; like the rest of us, he has flaws, but he is the right man to lead at this time.

It's not often one encounters a man like Francis at the top. While he is an accomplished scholar, he knows what it's like among the humblest of God's people. He was, for a time, a bouncer in a tough area of Buenos Aires.

And he acts as though he takes Christ's words to heart. Not perfect, but the right man for these times.

He's a Jesuit. He is not about pastoring his flock. He is about what all Jesuits are sworn to do and have been attempting since their founding in the 16th century. Overthrow protestantism and establish papal hegemony on a global scale. That is Francis's goal, and he's doing a very good job if one is willing to look a little beyond the headlines and read the fine print.

 

[Yehren]

He's a Jesuit. He is not about pastoring his flock. He is about what all Jesuits are sworn to do and have been attempting since their founding in the 16th century. Overthrow protestantism and establish papal hegemony on a global scale.

Sorry, that's not even close. As far as "papal hegemony" goes, you'd be more on target with the Dominicans than Jesuits. "Dominus canus" as the saying goes. The church pointedly rejects the idea of a state run by a religion and considers abuse of people of other faiths as an offense against God. You see, the papacy already has the only hegemony that matters, and it's not one that requires any force. It doesn't even concern political power.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
...

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.
...

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

 

[Yehren]

No one should be afraid that God has allowed there to be different religions in the world, Pope Francis said.

"But we should be frightened if we are not doing the work of fraternity, of walking together in life" as brothers and sisters of one human family, he said.

As is customary, at his general audience April 3, the first after his March 30-31 trip to Morocco, Pope Francis reviewed his visit.

"People might ask themselves, 'Why is it the pope visits Muslims and not just Catholics?'" the pope said.

Catholics and Muslims are both "descendants of the same father, Abraham," he said, and the trip was another step on a journey of "dialogue and encounter with (our) Muslim brothers and sisters."

The pope said he wanted to follow in the footsteps of two great saints: St. Francis of Assisi, who brought a "message of peace and fraternity" to Sultan al-Malik al-Kami 800 years ago, and St. John Paul II, who visited Morocco in 1985.

Pope Francis said people also may wonder why God allows there to be so many different religions in the world.

Some theologians say it is part of God's "permissive will," allowing "this reality of many religions. Some emerge from the culture, but they always look toward heaven and God," the pope said.

"What God wants is fraternity among us," he said, which is why "we must not be frightened by difference. God has allowed this." But it is right to be worried when people are not working toward a more fraternal world, he added.

The pope's comment about God's "voluntas permissiva" or "permissive will" clarified a controversy that erupted during the pope's trip in February to Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.
Pope Francis: Don’t be afraid that God has allowed different religions in the world

 

[Brakelite]

Sorry, that's not even close. As far as "papal hegemony" goes, you'd be more on target with the Dominicans than Jesuits. "Dominus canus" as the saying goes. The church pointedly rejects the idea of a state run by a religion and considers abuse of people of other faiths as an offense against God. You see, the papacy already has the only hegemony that matters, and it's not one that requires any force. It doesn't even concern political power.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.
...

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.
...

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion. On the contrary, following in the footsteps of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul, this sacred synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to "maintain good fellowship among the nations" (1 Peter 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with all men,(14) so that they may truly be sons of the Father who is in heaven.(15)

DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

No one should be afraid that God has allowed there to be different religions in the world, Pope Francis said.

"But we should be frightened if we are not doing the work of fraternity, of walking together in life" as brothers and sisters of one human family, he said.

As is customary, at his general audience April 3, the first after his March 30-31 trip to Morocco, Pope Francis reviewed his visit.

"People might ask themselves, 'Why is it the pope visits Muslims and not just Catholics?'" the pope said.

Catholics and Muslims are both "descendants of the same father, Abraham," he said, and the trip was another step on a journey of "dialogue and encounter with (our) Muslim brothers and sisters."

The pope said he wanted to follow in the footsteps of two great saints: St. Francis of Assisi, who brought a "message of peace and fraternity" to Sultan al-Malik al-Kami 800 years ago, and St. John Paul II, who visited Morocco in 1985.

Pope Francis said people also may wonder why God allows there to be so many different religions in the world.

Some theologians say it is part of God's "permissive will," allowing "this reality of many religions. Some emerge from the culture, but they always look toward heaven and God," the pope said.

"What God wants is fraternity among us," he said, which is why "we must not be frightened by difference. God has allowed this." But it is right to be worried when people are not working toward a more fraternal world, he added.

The pope's comment about God's "voluntas permissiva" or "permissive will" clarified a controversy that erupted during the pope's trip in February to Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates.
Pope Francis: Don’t be afraid that God has allowed different religions in the world

A well presented and finely documented apologetic and public relations exercise. Well done. When I was a Catholic and if someone had challenged me with the same questions, I would have been proud to have presented such a masterly response. Unfortunately 1600 years of history and dogmatic adherence to the teachings of such as Aquinas and Augustine et al written in blood across the pages of European history contradicts your perspective.