bbyrd009
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Are Protestants "saved? "
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Yes, Jesus as our true foundation would support us, but the building [you and me] must be leaning heavily and primarily on its foundation. What happens when people lean on something else, such their own minds, or their secular governments, or their churches, or the human leaders of their churches, or their parents, or their spouse, or their friends, or their physicians, or their bank accounts, or their jobs... more than they lean on Him?
When such other alternant supports [foundations] are used [chosen] does that not mean that Jesus is not their foundation, whether he was initially or not? Is it not our choice as to which foundation we select to support us?
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands." Psalm 102:25
The foundation of planet Earth or the foundation of men [Adam & Eve] formed from a bit of earth? God was their sure foundation until they rejected Him by trusting first in in something else! Was the foundation of Adam & Eve less sure before they sinned than our newly place foundation of Jesus? People insist they cannot lose what God has given them, but indeed, they can and too often do cast it away in favor of their own ways established on their own foundation, which is Not Jesus!
"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6
I call what you are disagreeing with.... baby evangelicalism. Where there is only Goldilocks or the big bad wolf.Everything is seen as black and white...or binary. everything that is good...that is them. Anything that is bad...well that's for someone else.
And they actually teach this stuff in churches.
Amazing!
But as you say...our flesh is not vile...it is weak and unable to fulfill the holiness law of God. We are frail and weak in ourselves. We need to be empowered by grace so as to walk in the power of Christ...and do all things as He did. And yet in this flesh we can still be honest and do righteously so as to be accepted (but not well pleasing) by God. (Only Catholics actually acknowledge this because it seems to go contrary to the evangelical binary salvation scheme)
We are to be obedient to God in the Spirit BUT ALSO with all OUR hearts and minds and efforts. Many will deny that the law of God is to love God and others with OUR own strength...to walk by faithfulness as well as walk by faith in the power of Christ.
Evangelicals don't understand this. They have been programmed to reject righteousness in favour of holiness...thus shooting themselves in the foot.
So the nuance of human inability is exposed. We tend to lean on our own understanding and judge from the wrong tree...the binary tree of good and evil.
So we mostly miss what the life of God is all about.
Peace bro!
Changes in vision! Seeking more Light! Growing closer to God... or simply sitting in what I already have until we stagnate and what vision we had is gone?
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matt 13:12-13
"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:11-12
"Where there is no vision, the people perish:... Prov 29:18
How dark or how light is the way or Way in which we now walk? Is it brighter now than when we first met the Master?
"And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink." Acts 9:9
"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith..." Acts 9:17-18
"He answered and said, … one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." John 9:25
"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12
"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26
"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." Rev 22:4-5
From what I've seen you have an issue with the idea of Absolute Truth, that something is only an Absolute Truth if You can measure it, hold it in your hand, as it were.
Your wrote Absolute Truth = Objective Evidence
That can only mean that you only believe in what you see. But the just, they live by faith. Completely different.
"the only people who have to endure to the end to be saved"
This sounds like a lego salvation with a set of instructions of what to do, not about entering the Kingdom of light and what betrayal of this light looks like. What has struck me is how many go to church, who feel the moving of the Spirit, who hear the words, who for a time believe them and live them but finally walk away, and describe it as a phase or something they used to accept but now it means nothing to them.
These folk in certain views are still saved, and in this view God will great in the words spoken
His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
Matt 25:21
Even in this parable Jesus says this to the one who abandons the gifting and buries it.
30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:30
So the worthless servant is actually doomed, though he knew his master and was in his service, he did nothing in the end.
What is the reality of faith, the pretence that fails under trials or the reality that bears eternal fruit till the end?
Jesus says this
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last.
John 15:16
Some talk like the cross, eternity, God dwelling in our hearts making us Holy, pure and righteous, is just about a temporary blip or a continual reality, it does not matter, they are equally true. This sounds like an idolatry of salvation, that salvation is worth more, the contact with God than the reality of change and eternity taking root in the heart and soul of the believer. But if only those who have eternity which has taken root in the heart and soul are saved, then any temporary contact is doomed to destruction. As is said in the seed and sower parable.
17 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Mark 4:17
Falling away is death, of not importance to the Kingdom, lost.
20 Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop--thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."
Mark 4:20
A strange interpretation of the seed and the sower is that the objective of the parable is to show the seed does flower and for all this is eternal life and so salvation. The problem is the parable is only interested in the crop, the replication of the seed, that taking of that which is given and then producing more. It is describing how the Kingdom works, seed creation, not each plant that grows is eternal.
The harvest is to bring in the crop, the fruit of peoples lives, the life that has been born within the soul and lives forever.
Once you dilute this to a temporary acknowledgement of God, you deny that the change is permanent and real, it is just a flag for a future work that is permanent and real. To those who believe in the cross being the reality of the Kingdom of heaven come to earth, permanent changes show themselves. To those who believe it is just a testing ground for the eternal change, nothing really matters other than saying, yes ok.
No parable, no example, no promise is based on a sloughful half hearted response to God, rather God wants our lives, our souls, our very beings in worship and adoration of Him for who He is, because He is worthy, and this is the eternal reality of the life and gift He has given to which we are called and inspired to respond to. God bless you
What do you mean by eternal life? Do you have an assumption of an afterlife? Or are you experiencing the fellowship of God in Zion right now...which IS the eternal kind of life?
Do you want me to give a personal defense here? Do you simply assume these are not true for me?
But why do you want to talk about me, when we can go straight to the truth of the Bible?
And what would it matter what I testify of myself? You would actually need to see my life. People can and do say all manner of things on the internet, true and not true.
My whole point here is that either . . . is that either we are walking by a moment by moment trust in Jesus to make our lives like His, and in which they are, or we are seeking through whatever level of maturity we have attained to to control our flesh, and do good works. That's good, if that's all we find ourselves able to do.
My message to you is that by trusting in Jesus, we walk overcoming the flesh, overcoming the world.
Dead to sin is to be not under it's power. That there is no temptation to sin that we cannot resist. What are temptations to sin are also testings which prove us.
In your own power, it's a mixed bag. But in Christ is no sin, and therefore as we live in Him by faith, we do not sin.
People talk all day long about, can I grow enough to not sin. And people seep to experience all manner of results from that. In Scripture, it is through faith in Jesus that we have access into the grace in which we stand.
Do you suppose that standing in grace through faith in Jesus results in a defeated life?
So very true! I see it all over. But the sadness is that only the truth will actually set you free.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. Although something I can't quite get my head around is your comparing me to a crack addict. How does that make any sense?
Just to come back to this . . . what I am is a new creation, the spirit child of God, born from Him in righteousness and holiness, created to live the life God desires for me, planned exactly for me, to be lived out by faith, as the just shall live by faith.
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternal - Without end, Forever,
Life, as apposed to death,
A life which will never end, a person who has it will never die.
How is it obtained?
By Faith (living faith, not just mere belief) By asking
John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 4:
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6: 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” ...........35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. .......................... 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” ................... 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.” ................54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.” ............ 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. ...............
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
It is something we have already been given,
John 10: 28 - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand
John 17: 3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
1 John 1: 2 - the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1 John 2: 25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.
1 John 5: 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 John 5: 13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
It is evidenced by those who are made righteous, and changed creatures who do the works of God
Matt 25: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Rom 2: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
1 tim 6: 12 -
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
It is a gift, which can not be earned by our good works.
Rom 6: 23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
And it is the hope of which our faith is base on
Titus 1: 2 - in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Titus 3: 7 - that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
AT or Absolute Truth is what God has or perhaps what Jesus is. Until we are able to see Him face to face and hear clearly His every Word, do we have it? Do we see it? If any on us are ever wrong about anything with regard to God and the things of God, are we able to state clearly to anyone exactly what it is?
Yes, we can say God or we can say Jesus, but how well do we know Him? How well do we see Him? Do we really know Absolutely who He is? If so then why do people continue to search and discuss and even argue about things such as a Trinity?
So you don't care if you misrepresent my words? I am amazed. Is that what you call communication? Where is truth in this?
Either you are walking in faith or you are not. Either you are walking in the works ordained by God, or you are not. If you are not walking in the Spirit, then you are walking according to the flesh. Either you have trusted in Jesus or you have not. Either you have been reborn or you have not.
What is your aversion to the "either/or" aspects of Scripture?
And what is there about the idea of true and untruth, saved and unsaved, all these so called binary understandings as you put it disparagingly, what is there about that which somehow for you means there's no "learning curve based on a faith that is walked out"?
These are not exclusive of each other as you would represent.
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Is it your intent to ascribe these beliefs to me so that you can argue against them instead of addressing what I'm saying? That would be the definition of a Straw Man Argument.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
What does it mean, "sinful flesh"? And what does it mean, "in the likeness of sinful flesh"?
1 Corinthians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
The first man, earthy, the second man, from heaven.
What does it mean to bear "the image of the earthy?" What does it mean to "bear teh image of the heavenly"?
Why is it that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
Are you saying that we grow in being more dead to sin? A better death as we grow? That we get better at dying to sin, as we chose to make ourselves dead to sin?
Is that what the Scriptures teach?
Romans 6
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Much love!
Philippians 3
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
I like the more literal translation, actually, the body of our humiliation.
What do you suppose causes our flesh to be weak and unable to fulfill the holiness law of God?
Much love!
John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
. . . as if we would then have something of which to boast!
There is a true freedom, a full release, in knowing that Jesus has made us free. If we believe He has done it, we can live in that truth. But if we don't believe, we don't.
So the choice is ours. Struggle trying to do the right thing in our own strength, or trust in Jesus, and find freedom.
Much love!
bbyrd009
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well, "i" wrote AT=OE bc that is what the definition is, but note that you are the one who speaks in phrases of AT, no qualifications iow? "That can only mean" type language, which btw is not true; can you see the wind? Condemnation duly noted though, ty
bbyrd009
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Truth is the same thing as the evidence of the truth?
Interesting definitions you have.
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