It is possible that that Scripture was, but the saints are being worn out today, all around the world, and vexed, like LOT was in sodom..... as confirmed by other Scriptures , daily.
Are Protestants "saved? "
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When they do that on this forum, and complain their character is being impugned when that is pointed out, what do you do ?
Are Protestants "saved? "
OP ^
Mankind has set the Rules concerning Christ Followers, by designating Clans, Cults, Groups, or however you choose to describe the TWO...
Either Catholic or Protestant.
The Earliest Churches were started By Jews.
They were neither called: Jewish Churches, Catholic Churches or Protestant Churches...
They were Called "Churches" "at" whatever "place"/ Location/City/Town they were located.
I would give credit to the first manmade Cultish type Church as being the Catholic Church.
And would add, the Catholic Churches historical beginnings was at a time, few knew how to read, or had access to Scriptural books to read, if they could read, which has played a huge part for Centuries, of an individual being unable to Verify what they are Taught/Told. (Even today as of stats 2016, approx 14% of Adults in the US could not read).
It was a Catholic Priest who challenged and Protested Catholic Teaching and Operations...and was Booted out of the Catholic Church.
From there anyone claiming to follow after Christ's Teachings and NOT joining up with the Catholics were Called Protesters...and changed into The Name "Protestant."
It's a strange phenomenon...that Almost 500 hundred years later...it appears Catholics believe anyone NOT joining WITH the Catholics are still Protesting and Anti-Catholic, as if that is something Evil.
Personally, I never gave a thought to even "consider" going to or joining a Catholic Church. Personal friends who were Catholic and talked about their beliefs were Varied and the expected rigamarole's were to me, somewhere on the edge between weird and creepy.
So we land on ...
Catholics who choose that option to join and be called Catholic while they have Varied individual beliefs.
AND
Protestants who are protesting nothing but joining Varied Denominations, that appeal to their Varied Beliefs.
AND
Jews who Who are calling themselves, neither, Catholic, Protestant or Christian, but rather Messaniac Jews.
According to Scripture...calling oneself;
A Catholic,
A Protestant,
A Messaniac Jew,
A Christian,
OR
attending ANY man-made building, Called a Church
OR
Joining ANY membership of a man-made Church...
Has Nothing Whatsoever to do with ANY individual Establishing a relationship With God Through Christ the Lord...and that Individual becoming a Member of Christ's Spiritual Church.
So are Protestants Saved?
The fact is: "Individuals" Are and are Not Saved regardless of what the called themselves....and regardless if they attend or join a manmade Church.
Christ's Spiritual Church is within a man who Has Been MADE by Christ Converted. Such a man has 24-7 access to his High Priest, and his Church, ANY place, Any Time.
Glory to God,
Taken
OP ^
Mankind has set the Rules concerning Christ Followers, by designating Clans, Cults, Groups, or however you choose to describe the TWO...
Either Catholic or Protestant.
The Earliest Churches were started By Jews.
They were neither called: Jewish Churches, Catholic Churches or Protestant Churches...
They were Called "Churches" "at" whatever "place"/ Location/City/Town they were located.
I would give credit to the first manmade Cultish type Church as being the Catholic Church.
And would add, the Catholic Churches historical beginnings was at a time, few knew how to read, or had access to Scriptural books to read, if they could read, which has played a huge part for Centuries, of an individual being unable to Verify what they are Taught/Told. (Even today as of stats 2016, approx 14% of Adults in the US could not read).
It was a Catholic Priest who challenged and Protested Catholic Teaching and Operations...and was Booted out of the Catholic Church.
From there anyone claiming to follow after Christ's Teachings and NOT joining up with the Catholics were Called Protesters...and changed into The Name "Protestant."
It's a strange phenomenon...that Almost 500 hundred years later...it appears Catholics believe anyone NOT joining WITH the Catholics are still Protesting and Anti-Catholic, as if that is something Evil.
Personally, I never gave a thought to even "consider" going to or joining a Catholic Church. Personal friends who were Catholic and talked about their beliefs were Varied and the expected rigamarole's were to me, somewhere on the edge between weird and creepy.
So we land on ...
Catholics who choose that option to join and be called Catholic while they have Varied individual beliefs.
AND
Protestants who are protesting nothing but joining Varied Denominations, that appeal to their Varied Beliefs.
AND
Jews who Who are calling themselves, neither, Catholic, Protestant or Christian, but rather Messaniac Jews.
According to Scripture...calling oneself;
A Catholic,
A Protestant,
A Messaniac Jew,
A Christian,
OR
attending ANY man-made building, Called a Church
OR
Joining ANY membership of a man-made Church...
Has Nothing Whatsoever to do with ANY individual Establishing a relationship With God Through Christ the Lord...and that Individual becoming a Member of Christ's Spiritual Church.
So are Protestants Saved?
The fact is: "Individuals" Are and are Not Saved regardless of what the called themselves....and regardless if they attend or join a manmade Church.
Christ's Spiritual Church is within a man who Has Been MADE by Christ Converted. Such a man has 24-7 access to his High Priest, and his Church, ANY place, Any Time.
Glory to God,
Taken
QUOTE="Taken, post: 731883, member: 7756"]So are Protestants Saved?
The fact is: "Individuals" Are and are Not Saved regardless of what the called themselves....and regardless if they attend or join a manmade Church.
Christ's Spiritual Church is within a man who Has Been MADE by Christ Converted. Such a man has 24-7 access to his High Priest, and his Church, ANY place, Any Time.
Glory to God,[/QUOTE ================================
============================================== GOOD !
The 'sign-in' in heaven in the life to come, does not 'check to see' what denomination someone was or wasn't, but rather if they are/were/ abiding in Jesus, ANY place, (ALL the time).
By the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and the word of their testimony of Jesus in their life.... GOOD !
The Jews and the gentiles in the first century - check out what Scripture says concerning them:
as in they listened to TORAH read every Shabbat, and the Bereans (somehow?) verified, checked, every message BEFORE accepting it, even from the Apostles, to know that it is in line with , in harmony with, the Gospel of Jesus, the Torah they had all their lives, ....
(the gentiles the Jews considered righteous, observed Torah, and went to synagogue when they were able to - (a gentile>) Cornelius, remember him? The Jews loved him - HE BUILT one or more synagogues !
The fact is: "Individuals" Are and are Not Saved regardless of what the called themselves....and regardless if they attend or join a manmade Church.
Christ's Spiritual Church is within a man who Has Been MADE by Christ Converted. Such a man has 24-7 access to his High Priest, and his Church, ANY place, Any Time.
Glory to God,[/QUOTE ================================
============================================== GOOD !
The 'sign-in' in heaven in the life to come, does not 'check to see' what denomination someone was or wasn't, but rather if they are/were/ abiding in Jesus, ANY place, (ALL the time).
By the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and the word of their testimony of Jesus in their life.... GOOD !
The Jews and the gentiles in the first century - check out what Scripture says concerning them:
as in they listened to TORAH read every Shabbat, and the Bereans (somehow?) verified, checked, every message BEFORE accepting it, even from the Apostles, to know that it is in line with , in harmony with, the Gospel of Jesus, the Torah they had all their lives, ....
(the gentiles the Jews considered righteous, observed Torah, and went to synagogue when they were able to - (a gentile>) Cornelius, remember him? The Jews loved him - HE BUILT one or more synagogues !
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I agree. I might add that if a Christian today isn't being vexed or harassed in some way, then his light ain't shining.
Not had people doing this. I avoid saying you believe X, but this group believes X. The reason is individuals often follow a version of the ideas. Now the concept maybe true in certain contexts. Jonah was told by God to preach to Nineveh and he ran away. It cost him his life, but God saved him as a sign. Being sensitive to the Spirit matters, but as a morality of service, serving yourself or God it goes wrong. Love is our motivator, not analysing are we serving God or the flesh, rather in all things do it as serving God.
Communication
I stand at the end of a column of communication 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6.
I can guess what 6 is but it has gone through 5 other steps, each of which must be right and clear.
Now I can be definitive about belief systems and how they work, which I can test and work through. I can criticise and show how they fail or succeed. What I can only do very carefully is say what individuals believe as part of these belief systems or how they fail or succeed in understanding it and applying it.
What I can do is help people learn the tools by which they for themselves can work things through.
This is what Jesus does. He lays out the path, speaks to the problems and successes and calls people to follow and find their way through.
When things are much clearer and obvious, he does address hypocrites and those who would lie and call that which is of God of satan.
This calling out regarded sinful behaviour, a lack of love, mercy and faithfulness while being extremely particular on minor aspects of faith and belief. Attitudes of greed and self indulgence where particularly addressed. Without love in their hearts they did not know God.
The pharisees calling out was kill them, Jesus's calling out was repent and humble oneself before the Lord and seek to walk in His ways.
To get to this point though, a lot of interaction is required, with discussion as to what and how it is believed and who aligns to which belief position. What complicates it, is in discussing the subjects, we discover often where we stand, which is not necessarily something immovable or certain, but recently discovered. Further still the same subject and position can be viewed in more than one way, so though we may agree the same place, how we express it could make us feel accepted or rejected.
So I am OSAS for the elect, but only at the end do we know. We are secure in Christ through the cross and His love, but how far it works is only seen by those with an open heart and repentant spirit. But if you teach OSAS like a badge, the foolish go to their deaths lost in sin thinking they know Jesus and are secure.
Our views are also coloured by our actual birth or otherwise in God. Like it or not weeds are planted and they have no awareness of their position, because by its nature, a hard heart and compromised life will justify itself to the end, because that is the nature of sin and lostness. A loud mouthed sinner will claim I am just like them, but lying to cover my hypocrisy. The anger, hatred, venom and desire to destroy actually speaks more loudly and who boasts about their sinful life, as if it is a badge of honour. Jesus described such as these with these words
1 I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
John 10:1
There are many robbers who would deny sin and repentance, deny the cross and the walk, but His people know who these folk are and that is fine, because we know how to deal with them. God bless you.
I stand at the end of a column of communication 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6.
I can guess what 6 is but it has gone through 5 other steps, each of which must be right and clear.
Now I can be definitive about belief systems and how they work, which I can test and work through. I can criticise and show how they fail or succeed. What I can only do very carefully is say what individuals believe as part of these belief systems or how they fail or succeed in understanding it and applying it.
What I can do is help people learn the tools by which they for themselves can work things through.
This is what Jesus does. He lays out the path, speaks to the problems and successes and calls people to follow and find their way through.
When things are much clearer and obvious, he does address hypocrites and those who would lie and call that which is of God of satan.
This calling out regarded sinful behaviour, a lack of love, mercy and faithfulness while being extremely particular on minor aspects of faith and belief. Attitudes of greed and self indulgence where particularly addressed. Without love in their hearts they did not know God.
The pharisees calling out was kill them, Jesus's calling out was repent and humble oneself before the Lord and seek to walk in His ways.
To get to this point though, a lot of interaction is required, with discussion as to what and how it is believed and who aligns to which belief position. What complicates it, is in discussing the subjects, we discover often where we stand, which is not necessarily something immovable or certain, but recently discovered. Further still the same subject and position can be viewed in more than one way, so though we may agree the same place, how we express it could make us feel accepted or rejected.
So I am OSAS for the elect, but only at the end do we know. We are secure in Christ through the cross and His love, but how far it works is only seen by those with an open heart and repentant spirit. But if you teach OSAS like a badge, the foolish go to their deaths lost in sin thinking they know Jesus and are secure.
Our views are also coloured by our actual birth or otherwise in God. Like it or not weeds are planted and they have no awareness of their position, because by its nature, a hard heart and compromised life will justify itself to the end, because that is the nature of sin and lostness. A loud mouthed sinner will claim I am just like them, but lying to cover my hypocrisy. The anger, hatred, venom and desire to destroy actually speaks more loudly and who boasts about their sinful life, as if it is a badge of honour. Jesus described such as these with these words
1 I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
John 10:1
There are many robbers who would deny sin and repentance, deny the cross and the walk, but His people know who these folk are and that is fine, because we know how to deal with them. God bless you.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Look at the life of Christ, Look at the life of Paul
Paul considered his sufferings a momentary light affliction. Because he understood his position in Christ. And he understood his sufferings served a purpose. Not to mention, He understood compared to eternity this short life but was a blink of an eye.
If Paul was not secure in his hope of his salvation. and as many here want to present, working hard to make sure his salvation was secure. He would not have considered them light afflictions. He would have seen them as grave hardships. making him worthy of Eternal life.
Paul never went there. because Paul understood, To be absent from the body was to be present with God. And he would RATHER be home with his father, But was willing to suffer for the people he would touch,
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
If we are not restored to a right relationship with God
it does not matter
Gods justice demands a verdict. And he will pronounce that verdict on the lost.
For those who are his children. He gives the HS to help them in their process of learning to grow in him.
As paul said clearly, He who began a good work in you (at the point of salvation, restoring us to him, adopting us as his children) Will (not might) COMPLETE IT until the day of Christ.
He is constantly working in our lives and our hearts. And I have faith in him to do what he promised to do.
This is too often taken to mean that Paul was trying to please God when he's dead...as in....
"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." 2 Cor. 5:9
A dead person doesn't labour.
This is speaking about being in the power of the Spirit or not...in either case we are to walk in a manner pleasing to God. Whether we are walking in Zion with Jesus...or else walking in our own power....we are to walk in a worthy manner. The first in holiness and the latter in righteousness. They who actually have walked in the Spirit know that we are to go in and out of the Spirit...for training in the kingdom walk and life.
The same basic error is revealed with they who believe that Jesus went to heaven to prepare mansions (abiding places) for they who are dead....rather than learning to abide in Him so as to bear an eternal kind of fruit...while we yet live. No one can bear fruit after they have died. So again this is missing the point of being dead to the flesh as opposed to just dead.
So we see the religion of death contrasted with a faith in resurrection life.
And we see the binary understanding as opposed to a learning curve based on a faith that is walked out.
Who then can understand the mystery of a walk In Zion....by the Spirit? Paul is relating something that few can understand but is now part of the modern religious culture.
This is true by and large...but the question is the depth of it.
We are not to judge anything before it's time...and that means that we must endure to the end to be saved.
Most modern believers have a very superficial binary grasp on things biblical...very far from the actual training of Christ. Most have no experience whatsoever with the Holy Spirit.
So we can grasp the gospel with the religious mind...but who walks in the power that raised Jesus from the dead? THAT is what Paul is talking about. And people have been induced into thinking they have a similar walk to Paul...which is not the case.
Paul said...it is no longer I who live...and this is taken to be a philosophical religious statement that has no real meaning by they who seek to claim the same experiences as Paul but without any reality or truth getting involved.
There is a great temptation to exaggerate one's walk and presume much. But with God's help we can escape these kinds of temptations in order to remain humble and available for real grace.
Yesterday someone wrote this
"the world stands against us in active vengeance, even though our flesh be broken, and corrupt, and vile"
"I am dead to sin, alive unto God."
It indicates two different beliefs.
1. Our flesh is broken, corrupt and vile
2. We are born dead to sin and alive to God
Both of these beliefs I cannot agree with, whether the individual actually holds them as I describe them or not, I am using them as an example.
Jesus had our human body, flesh in all its aspects, yet Jesus was pure, holy and perfect. It cannot be our flesh is corrupt, broken, and vile.
This is a gnostic view, spirituality is pure and perfect, our bodies fallen and corrupted. Some go back to Augustine for the start of this theological trend, but it has always been part of the question about our humanity and our acceptance before the Lord.
How we are born in Christ is a repentant contrite spirit, which desires to follow God and resist evil.
To be dead to sin is a choice, something that discipleship hones and disciplines, a choice that even Jesus faced in the temptation.
The point is we have no automatic response, the knowledge of good and evil is founded on our choice, the ability to judge and follow.
Equally Pauls warning to sow to the Spirit and reap eternal life, by its nature, though our walk is the eternal walk, it does not guarantee the end, it only guarantees the reality of the walk and the fellowship we find there.
So important is this fellowship, our innocence and worthiness of grace is our ignorance of our sin and lostness in unbelief, but once revealed, innocence is lost, and turning away has much deeper and profound implications, which are very worrying to say the least. But this is about the positive aspect of glory and praise in the Spirit with God comes at a price, it is not a nice holiday, a euphoria which passes into the gloom of reality and depression, when worldly passions close in and self indulgence and greed speak to the heart with worries and cares related to this world and its respect over the Kingdom and the ways of eternity and the King of Kings.
What some do not see, which has taken me time to grasp, Israel, on the brink of entering into the promised land, called by God to go up and conquer come back in unbelief, claim the people are too big and strong, that they will be crushed, that God is not big enough. This unbelief is too much, the generation are judged, cast out, sent to the wilderness until they are all dead, before the people are allowed to return.
This God does not joke. His terms and reality stand today, face to face. To know and turn away does not get forgiven and forgotten. My experience is some are already past this point, and will never return, but to those who want to listen to Jesus, stand strong and walk on.
Praise the Lord, God bless you.
I call what you are disagreeing with.... baby evangelicalism. Where there is only Goldilocks or the big bad wolf.
Everything is seen as black and white...or binary. everything that is good...that is them. Anything that is bad...well that's for someone else.And they actually teach this stuff in churches.
Amazing!
But as you say...our flesh is not vile...it is weak and unable to fulfill the holiness law of God. We are frail and weak in ourselves. We need to be empowered by grace so as to walk in the power of Christ...and do all things as He did. And yet in this flesh we can still be honest and do righteously so as to be accepted (but not well pleasing) by God. (Only Catholics actually acknowledge this because it seems to go contrary to the evangelical binary salvation scheme)
We are to be obedient to God in the Spirit BUT ALSO with all OUR hearts and minds and efforts. Many will deny that the law of God is to love God and others with OUR own strength...to walk by faithfulness as well as walk by faith in the power of Christ.
Evangelicals don't understand this. They have been programmed to reject righteousness in favour of holiness...thus shooting themselves in the foot.
So the nuance of human inability is exposed. We tend to lean on our own understanding and judge from the wrong tree...the binary tree of good and evil.
So we mostly miss what the life of God is all about.
Peace bro!
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bbyrd009
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ah well i guess that would require that you be the arbiter of "true and solid," right? are you?
This is what the LORD says: “For three transgressions of Edom, even four, I will not revoke My judgment, because he pursued his brother with the sword and stifled all compassion; his anger raged continually, and his fury flamed incessantly.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this is what happens when someone takes what another said out of context.
Have no idea what your talking about here. As this has nothing to do with what I said
bbyrd009
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Eternally Grateful
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the only people who have to endure to the end to be saved are those in tribulation. WHo are asked to endure until Christ returns, and if they do, Their PHYSICAL lives will be saved
Jesus said I HAVE eternal life
John said I HAVE eternal life
If your still looking for eternal life. You do not have it. And you should fear because you are on your own are you not?
bbyrd009
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and it even seems like you can Quote that, huh?
but you can't, wadr. Try, and see.
Paul is yanking our chains there i guess
eternity
aion: a space of time, an age
Who told you that you were naked?
yeh, what a brutal taskmaster eh
only Yah knows when, i guess, huh?
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