Are Protestants "saved? "

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marks

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I believe that in the last days the following will apply to those " marked" with the seal of God...
KJV Ezekiel 9
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Personally I see that passage as being about the Babylonian invasion, and that when Babylon invaded, those who were marked survived.

But I do see in Revelation how this will be done for 144,000 of the Jews.

Much love!
 

marks

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Do you, or someone, remember where it is written "unless you are weeping (deeply grieved) by the conditions today (the vast sinfulness and wickednesses daily), you are not my disciple" (paraphrased) .
i.e. all of the ones born again are deeply vexed , grieved daily, same as Lot was. (and Jesus) (Jesus FIRST! - Most Important ! of course) ....

KJV Ezekiel 9
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Hi Joseph,

These seem rather different. You're applying something that happened in ancient Israel as a rule of discipleship.

?
 

marks

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(Ek- =set apart, holy. )
Actually, "ek" is "out of", Ekklesia is the "called out". It has do with with separation from a larger group, rather than being set apart for God's purpose.

Ekklesia is more about that we've been called out from the world. Sanctified is more about that we've been set apart for God.

Much love!
 

amadeus

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@marks
@Brakelite2
Do you, or someone, remember where it is written "unless you are weeping (deeply grieved) by the conditions today (the vast sinfulness and wickednesses daily), you are not my disciple" (paraphrased) .
i.e. all of the ones born again are deeply vexed , grieved daily, same as Lot was. (and Jesus) (Jesus FIRST! - Most Important ! of course) ....
I found this, but the meaning seems to be a bit different:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26-27
 

Yehren

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It's exactly what God says.
Those who produced a false gospel, are anathema for bringing it.

Some Protestants rejected and still reject the false Gospel.

Those that bring a false gospel are also anathema.

The doctrine of "faith only" is a false gospel, which is explicitly rejected by God in the Bible. However, the people following this false gospel, if unable to discern the truth, are not anathema; they are merely in error but not in heresy, which requires that one knowingly reject the truth.

Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin. The evident reason is that neither this state nor the act resulting therefrom is voluntary. It is undeniable that a man cannot be invincibly ignorant of the natural law, so far as its first principles are concerned, and the inferences easily drawn therefrom.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ignorance
 

amadeus

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? what ?
If your or anyone's posts are truth, they will stand the test, and they won't be offended being challenged either.
A sure sign someone's not right, is they get easily offended. (I think there's a dozen or more Scriptures verifying this) ....
ok, so then what is the test?
The well known for 2000 years, Berean test.
ah, can't find "berean test" in Scripture, can you expound? ty
The idea, I believe, comes from here:

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:10-11
 

Yehren

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Yet he did in romans 4, He did in eph 2 , Where he stated plainly, We are saved FOR WORKS. not BY WORKS.

Well, let's take a look...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory.

Here, St. Paul says that we can be saved only by the grace of God, not on our own. In no way does he deny what God says in James 2:

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Luther tried to have James removed from the Bible; he correctly argued that it contradicted his new doctrine of "faith only." Since the canon was newer then, he preferred to just edit out the parts that didn't fit his new ideas.


and here you go, another one for you
Titus 3: 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,


And you've again confused the salvation given to us by His mercy in Christ's death and Resurrection, with His word that we are justified by works and by faith.

Here it is clear. None one good work helped us to be saved, We were SAVED soleley by Gods mercy. how?

Christ's death on the cross and His Resurrection. Without that, and without His grace, we wouldn't be saved at all. But as you know, we are justified by faith and by works, not by just one of those.

James 2 is your worse nightmare my friend.

It was Luther's worst nightmare. Because Luther interpreted it correctly.

I understand why you can't accept it, even though it very plainly shows that we are justified by works and not by faith only. That's why Luther struggled so hard to have it removed from the Bible.
 

bbyrd009

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The idea, I believe, comes from here:

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:10-11
yeh, i'm fam with the usage of this v conflated with "Berean test," but ever notice when you try to get down to specifics it all pretty much evaporates? "Berean test" seems to me to be a fancy way of saying "what i believe is the Absolute Truth, and you have to agree with me or else," only justified by misusing Scripture?

I'd like to put our beliefs in going up to heaven after we have died to become immortals, while others are condemned to hell, up to this "Berean test" lol, guess i'd prolly get banned again though huh
 

amadeus

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The idea, I believe, comes from here:

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:10-11

yeh, i'm fam with the usage of this v conflated with "Berean test," but ever notice when you try to get down to specifics it all pretty much evaporates? "Berean test" seems to me to be a fancy way of saying "what i believe is the Absolute Truth, and you have to agree with me or else," only justified by misusing Scripture?

I'd like to put our beliefs in going up to heaven after we have died to become immortals, while others are condemned to hell, up to this "Berean test" lol, guess i'd prolly get banned again though huh
They did two important things mentioned in the verses I quoted:

1) they received the word with all readiness of mind
2) searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

How "ready" are our minds? Readyiness as used means what?

proqumiva Prothumia (proth-oo-mee'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4288


  1. zeal, spirit, eagerness
  2. inclination, readiness of mind
And then the second one required a daily search of the scriptures. How many are searching with their mind eagerly ready for whatever Truth God may give them... rather than to build support for what they have already decided, that AT which by their definition [not God's] is unchangeable?

Don't plan on getting banned yet. You are still needed, I believe, for God's plan right here!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Well, let's take a look...
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory.

Here, St. Paul says that we can be saved only by the grace of God, not on our own. In no way does he deny what God says in James 2:

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

This is why Luther tried to have James removed from the Bible; he correctly argued that it contradicted his new doctrine of "faith only." Since the canon was newer then, he preferred to just edit out the parts that didn't fit his new ideas.

Wow! not of works. By grace, But with works (which paul said means it’s not of grace!

Luther was confused as he misread the context of James, you are evidently confused to as you have James contradict Paul


And you've again confused the salvation given to us by His mercy in Christ's death and Resurrection, with His word that we are justified by works and by faith.
Not by the good deeds we have done, quite clear, you just called Paul a liar,


Christ's death on the cross and His Resurrection. Without that, and without His grace, we wouldn't be saved at all. But as you know, we are justified by faith and by works, not by just one of those.

you go ahead and try to be justified by works

I was justified by grace through faith, and not of myself (works)


It was Luther's worst nightmare. Because Luther interpreted it correctly.

I understand why you can't accept it, even though it very plainly shows that we are justified by works and not by faith only. That's why Luther struggled so hard to have it removed from the Bible.
Yeah it was, and it’s your worse nightmare also, because like him, you totally ignore context, and insert your own view
 

Yehren

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Luther was confused as he misread the context of James, you are evidently confused to as you have James contradict Paul

Luther accurately read James, and realized that it bluntly contradicted his new doctrine. Can't be more direct than this:

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

No matter how you try to argue that God didn't mean what He said, it remains. That's why Luther finally decided it had to go. You can't have "sola fide" with James 2:24. One of them is wrong.

 

Brakelite

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Personally I see that passage as being about the Babylonian invasion, and that when Babylon invaded, those who were marked survived.

But I do see in Revelation how this will be done for 144,000 of the Jews.

Much love!
Goes deeper that that my friend. Apocalyptic scripture isn't just shoot Jews. It's global. That double application is localised in the OT, to Jerusalem, but globally applying to all God's people... The church... In the NT. And it isnt the only prophecy that can apply in that fashion.
 

Brakelite

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The doctrine of "faith only" is a false gospel, which is explicitly rejected by God in the Bible. However, the people following this false gospel, if unable to discern the truth, are not anathema; they are merely in error but not in heresy, which requires that one knowingly reject the truth.

Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin. The evident reason is that neither this state nor the act resulting therefrom is voluntary. It is undeniable that a man cannot be invincibly ignorant of the natural law, so far as its first principles are concerned, and the inferences easily drawn therefrom.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ignorance
And yet we read that anything that is not of faith is sin.
KJV Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
KJV Romans 14
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
The above is in reference if course to dietary traditions, but yet is a principle that applies to everything we do in Christian practice. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith must be involved... Even in our love and works... But the whole disusing must not be limited only to works.
Our characters are moulded by faith. We don't just get a free ride to heaven based on our belief. Our beliefs... Our faith... Must have a profound and very real impact on who and what we are. It is by faith... Trust... In a loving personal all powerful God of righteousness that we are changed into they image of Christ and overcome sin in our lives. Helping an old lady cross a busy street can be accomplished by boy scouts earning honor badges... And does not reflect whether that boy had faith. Faith must affect our lives at a level that deeply impacts everything we do... The kind of faith that compels God to alter our entire nature so that it reflects and demonstrates who He is... Then our works become His.
 
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Reggie Belafonte

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Luther accurately read James, and realized that it bluntly contradicted his new doctrine. Can't be more direct than this:

James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

No matter how you try to argue that God didn't mean what He said, it remains. That's why Luther finally decided it had to go. You can't have "sola fide" with James 2:24. One of them is wrong.
The worldly only see James as talking to worldly people but he is talking to the Born again in the Holy Spirit, who know that James is talking about the Holy Spirit in man in fact, in doing the works of that Salvation ? it's because of that faith that's God given they are abiding in only.

A worldly man can have faith, a water baptised can have faith, but so what ? that faith can fail ? as the weeds of this world can strangle that faith easy ?
But what one needs is the faith that can move Mountains, that's due to the Holy Spirit in a truly born again man ! it's got nothing to do with you as to such a power but of the Holy Spirit within you working. only a worldly man would not understand such and get such wrong.

Show me faith without the works of the Holy Spirit working in you ? as this is the faith you need, as ones own worldly faith is nothing much at all when compared to a born again man that's of the holy Spirits Faith. that faith that cam move mountains ? that means that it's the power of God working through one.
We and our own faith is but filthy rags ? you need to be born again of the Holy Spirit, then you will understand the difference in fact between the two types of faith, one is God given and the other is not worthy of God, but it's a start, just like one who is water baptised, this is done in the hope that one receives the Holy Spirit and becomes truly born again. now not all will become born again because they are not Israel = Servants of God, but are only of the People of God = like of Judah say, so they need to try and repent of their Sins until they understand where they are at and move forward in such as with the strength that they have, they are Sinners ? The truly born again are Saints, they Sin as well but they are not under the power of Sin, as they have a handle on such ? as they are not lead into temptation so easy.

The Judah Christian type will think that James is talking about some one is working for his salvation in his own works. it's because they are not truly saved born again of the Holy Spirit that they make such stupid claims, but then we have others who think that James is talking about works as in you are working for your salvation like some RC push. oh look what I did for you Lord ? well God will say to such that such is but filthy rags. looking for credit on your own works will not cut it at all as to God at all, because such is mans works, that is of Satan ! Like Political Correctness = a whore ! fact is that when it comes to anything that is Political, such can never be truly Correct with God.
Mans correctness is filthy rags, Political is of Mans works as it's a whore ! believe me, get involved in such as Political and you will be confronted with it up to your eyeballs and know that nothing is truly correct with such at all before God. clearly such do not serve God. they serve themselves !
 

Yehren

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The Judah Christian type will think that James is talking about some one is working for his salvation in his own works. it's because they are not truly saved born again of the Holy Spirit that they make such stupid claims, but then we have others who think that James is talking about works as in you are working for your salvation like some RC push.

Here's what Jesus says:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:31
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
 

Brakelite

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Here's what Jesus says:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 25:31
And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.


[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
None of the scriptures quoted are wrong, but where does faith come into the equation?
 

Episkopos

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None of the scriptures quoted are wrong, but where does faith come into the equation?


Where does faith come in? Believing the word of God that many who profess faith in God are going to be rejected for a lack of faithfulness.

People use their faith for a variety of reasons...chief of which is for self-preservation.

He who seeks to save his life will lose it.

Religion now is all about a salvation status.

Do you have faith in God's warnings?
 
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Brakelite

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Where does faith come in? Believing the word of God that many who profess faith in God are going to be rejected for a lack of faithfulness.

People use their faith for a variety of reasons...chief of which is for self-preservation.

He who seeks to save his life will lose it.

Religion now is all about a salvation status.

Do you have faith in God's warnings?
I see faith as the sole vehicle through which we may become the men and women God desires for us to be. It is a reliance upon Him to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. It is a deep abiding trusting submission to His will and a total relinquishing of our own vain prideful thinking that compels us to believe we can do anything without Him. Such faith must transcend what we see and hear, our emotions and feelings and must be relentless in the face of criticism, obstacles, and fear. It rests upon His promises and is rooted in understanding His true character and firmly believing that His thoughts toward us are good, and not evil, to give us a future and a hope.