My belief: no.
Truth comes from God via revelation, not from a council. The events of Acts 15 were led by an Apostle/Prophet of God to guide revelation, very different than the post-Biblical counsels.
Are the Ecumenical Councils valid?
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Truth comes from God via revelation, not from a council. The events of Acts 15 were led by an Apostle/Prophet of God to guide revelation, very different than the post-Biblical counsels.
See Hebrews 3:7-8, Hebrews 3:15, Hebrews 4:7.
Sometimes we can be in denial about the authority of a teacher or prophet because we ourselves don't like what has been spoken by them.
But the only faithful response when this happens in us is to begin to seek the Lord; and to ask Him if what they are saying is of Him or not.
If we ourselves have a connection with the Lord, then He will make something like that clear to us.
If not, then most assuredly, it is time to receive Him into our heart as Lord and Saviour (John 1:12) so that we can have a relationship with Him in which we are able to hear from Him.
But, yes; it is true that the Holy Spirit doesn't speak through everyone; for not everyone is born again of Him.
Hey-low Lady Jane, thank you for your post. Revelation, is an interesting topic in itself. Personnel revelation...denominational revelation. Unless one is not affiliated with one denomination or another, it hard to get away from councils of some sort, because each denomination is going to define themselves and beliefs. I imagine that when each denomination originally met to form their particular beliefs, that they could have been like the Ecumenical Councils, there were probably a few butting of heads.
This is actually a topic that I have done some study / research on and I must admit that I do not have a good answer. In one of my posts I told the story of young preacher friend of mine that told me his church preached the full Gospel....I asked him, in humor...Do you know of a church that only preaches half the Gospel because I did not have time for the full thing. To this day he still "ribs" me about that one. I will get an email from him and he tells me come over to church because he will only be preaching part of the Gospel this Sunday.
I do agree with the diversity in Christianity. But still I try to understand how different denominations can have different revelations and be led by the Holy Spirit into differing beliefs. This is not criticism, it is a legitimate question. There are a lot of denominations out there and they cannot all be lying. I do not subscribe to standing in a baptist church and say the Pentecostals are liars. The best answer I have is weak at best....That Christ planned to have diversity in Christianity to appeal to people in different ways. I do believe that most of the denominations lead to salvation, and that is what is important. Interestingly enough, Christ never named His teachings. In other words He did not form a named denomination, as it was and is, people named His teachings. As it happened designations like "The Way" and "Christian" came from men. There is no indication that Christ told His Apostles to write down what He said. So is, what we have today, or in other words, it is what it is.
So, if you would like, I invite you to elaborate on revelation and how you think it works.
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Philip James
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Hi Grailhunter,
If you're interested, you can find the Catholic perpesctive on private revelation in #67 here :
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
Peace!
An excellent answer. I concur entirely, and I think you will agree with me that if the Jews obeyed the rulings of the Sanhedrin, even if the Sanhedrin erred, God would not hold that against the average person. The average person could not be expected to know enough to come up with his own ideas about how the Law of Moses should be applied, nor did he have the authority to try to tell others what to do. He was to respect the rulings of the Sanhedrin; and if he did, God would count it as righteousness. If rulings were wrong, God would hold the Sanhedrin accountable for any harm done.
I would not try to convert any Catholic to my non-Catholic status. Catholics are safe if they remain subject to the authority of their bishops. Even if some bishops are bad, even if a Pope here or there is bad, that is not a reason to rebel the way Martin Luther, Henry the Eighth and others did. If there are problems inside the Church, Catholics should trust God will have His servants work it out. They should not rebel and cause wounds to the Unity of the Church. Obeying your bishop means God will count your obedience as righteousness; and if the bishop is wicked, God will punish him and not the people he misled. (Thus Athanasius said, "The floor of hell is covered with the skulls of bishops.")
Do we agree so far?
The concept of
The Bible contains several passages about how religion and politics should not be mixed, starting with Genesis and ending with Revelation. What went wrong at the Tower of Babel? If that can be discerned, then we will know what Babylon is in Revelation. The Bible is astonishingly consistent on this from the first book to the last. Perhaps it would be worth having a thread. Of course, such a thread would deal with how church and state getting mixed up in condemning Jesus to death unjustly.
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Philip James
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In principle, i think yes.
But, i believe this applies to everyone who follows a validly ordainded bishop, and so i would include Orthodox, copts etc...
Further, while the bishops will indeed be called to a higher account (they are responsible for every sheep placed under their care) that does not absolve the individual of the responsibilty to learn and live their faith, according to the Grace and gifts God has given them.
The more that God gives us, the more HE expects of us...
But yes, one must have Faith in Jesus' words 'the gates of hell will not prevail..' And in the Holy Spirit to guide, correct, and sustain HIS Church.
You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Peace be with you!
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Haha, now you're putting me on the spot ;)
In short, I think it means that private revelation is always at the service of the public relevation of Christ (that is the deposit of the faith, delivered once for all through HIS apostles) and the mission of HIS Church.
This is why the most the Church will say about any vision, practice, association, devotion, etc associated with a private revelation is that it is 'worthy of belief'
It like an imprimateur on a book, it says 'there is nothing here contrary to the faith' and one is free to use it to deepen ones walk..
None of the faithful are required to follow, believe or practice these private revelations, but neither are we to pass judgement on our brothers and sisters for doing so (even if we think they're kind of loopy
)As a result of this, we have an abundent diversity of communities, devotions, associations etc.. All working together to share the Gospel with the world around us..
And all 'bearing with one another in love' coming together with one voice, and one heart, and one mind to worship and praise our Father through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.
You too are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Peace be with you!
bbyrd009
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"no, i testify of myself..."
all authority has been given to the Son bro, Who will hand the kingdom back to the Father after your king that you love and desire to fight your battles for you has been destroyed. Doesnt mean i dont do what they say, but i do not give my authority to any man, and you may bam do what you like ok
Haha, now you're putting me on the spot ;)
In short, I think it means that private revelation is always at the service of the public relevation of Christ (that is the deposit of the faith, delivered once for all through HIS apostles) and the mission of HIS Church.
This is why the most the Church will say about any vision, practice, association, devotion, etc associated with a private revelation is that it is 'worthy of belief'
It like an imprimateur on a book, it says 'there is nothing here contrary to the faith' and one is free to use it to deepen ones walk..
None of the faithful are required to follow, believe or practice these private revelations, but neither are we to pass judgement on our brothers and sisters for doing so (even if we think they're kind of loopy
As a result of this, we have an abundent diversity of communities, devotions, associations etc.. All working together to share the Gospel with the world around us..
And all 'bearing with one another in love' coming together with one voice, and one heart, and one mind to worship and praise our Father through our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.
You too are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!
Peace be with you!
Yeap, put you on the spot. Figured I could count on you to give a good response. Not just for me, but also for those reading. Thanks
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Beloved,
Yes indeed! Alleluia, something we can agree on. :)
And he shared that authority 'the keys to the kingdom' with Peter and the apostles.. 'he who hears you, hears me..'
You will give your authority to the man Jesus Christ, sooner or later...
'for every knee shall bend and every tongue proclaim Jesus Christ is Lord'
Sooner is better than later ;)
Peace and Love!
If I may venture to give my view, I believe that different people have different needs spiritually. God will provide for them what they need. John describes seven churches in Revelation which are widely different from each other. Each has its own spiritual problems, and each has advice tailored to their needs. It may sound odd, but it's written that some in the church of Smyrna will be cast into prison by Satan. It's for their edification.
Thyatira is said to have allowed Jezebel to teach and seduce. God will deal with that too if they fail to repent.
Christians are like Israel in that God allowed Israel to go into captivity when they disobeyed. That was so Israel could learn what they needed to know and do what they needed to do. If they didn't want to do things God's way, He would let them do it some other way even if they didn't like the results.
What if there are even demons in some churches? If they didn't want to serve God, why shouldn't there be demons about? Are they Christians? Yes. However, they are being put into bondage so they can see how life is when they reject God. I am confident that sooner or later, they can come to their senses and escape their bondage. Satan serves a purpose. If we step out of line, he's there to "buffet" us. It should wake us up and tell us to seek God. Thus the strange language in 1 Corinthians 5:5 and 1 Timothy 1:20 about delivering people to Satan. If people reject the Holy Spirit who gently tries to steer them in the right path, let them be delivered to Satan who will buffet them as long as they are on the wrong path.
Who's perfect? Only one church comes close in Revelation. The people in Philadelphia are weak however and told to hold fast to what they have lest they fail.
I don't expect any earthly church to be perfect. Churches are meant to benefit people; and different people have different flaws so the churches are different as well. Still I believe all are moving in the direction of perfection.
bbyrd009
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yes, ty, you are certainly superior to me, and you can thus justify preaching to me as if i were a lost child, yes? While adopting my very position and making yourself a hypocrite in the process to do so? You would not let your daughter marry me and convert, m james, and you have no business here whatsoever imo, talking to me from where you are Standing.
Thus faith is in neither holy books nor holy men. Holy books and holy men may err; but that does not mean the Church will fail. It does not mean the gates of hell will prevail.
bbyrd009
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the RCC is an authority and will fall into The Hole as soon as men wake up, wadr, and you have a Catholic forum where your pov would be accepted, but you choose to come here to a Christian forum where that will never be accepted, Giuliano. Why are you here, seeking division and strife?
So i would offer you the same deal that all the other Catholic hypocrites here have rejected; pick a Catholic forum and invite me to it, and lets take this up on your ground rather than mine, hey? Bc no Christian will ever kiss that ring, ok, not ever, never.
The only salvation is outside the Catholic "church" imo,
you have to leave, come out of her my people
and that this also applies to Prot "churches" is really irrelevant here i guess
Philip James
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Ah, you wound me again brother, but I will love you all the more!
If I indeed denied my blessing, would you respect my authority as her father and desist, or would you run off with her anyway?
Love!
bbyrd009
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i wound you, but you talking down to me, thats fine right. M James i have no objections to your existence at all, see, until you come here ignoring boundary stones and seeking to rape my daughters?
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