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Featured Are the Ecumenical Councils valid?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Grailhunter, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Fine
     
  2. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi Grail Hunter,

    This is a very fascinating post that I am sure will garner many responses. Thank you!!

    I get the gist of what you are saying: Those are all "Catholic" councils. But wouldn't it be fair to say that all the councils up to the time of the Reformation were Church Councils since there was only "one" church? After all there really was no other Church (except for what later came to be called the Catholic Church) until The Reformation.

    With that said Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth and that Jesus started a church (singular). So if one does not accept the councils (teachings) of The Church why should they accept any teachings of Protestant Churches?

    Once again....thank you for this post. I look forward to the responses.

    Respectfully, Mary
     
  3. Giuliano

    Giuliano Active Member

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    I have no desire to try to convert people here. Why would I come here to convert people when the people here are already Christians -- or at least most of them.
     
  4. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Mary, thank you.
    Christ does not start a named Church...not trying to confuse you.
    The names "The Way" and "Christian" are names men came up with.
    Fundamentalism is the practice of keeping your faith to the Bible...It is not a horrible thing.
    But Christianity continued on after "the end of the Bible" so after the Apostles, there is a lot of Christian history.
    But for Protestants they stay with the Bible and the rest is lost for them. Still not a horrible thing.
    But in the meantime Christianity and the Roman Empire merge. Christianity survived.
    Shortly after the merge, Constantine sets up and funds the Ecumenical Councils.
    The point of the question was that there are Protestant denominations that will step out of the Bible to agree with some of the councils. Usually the first seven.
    Then even though, if they do not admit it or know it....the councils and the Early Church Father formed some of their beliefs.
    It is more or less a discussion on what the councils did for Christianity or did not do.
    To learn Christian history, a Protestant has to do that on their own. There not going to usually get that in church.
    So mostly a discussion.
     
  5. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Your welcome.....:)

    Jesus said, Upon this rock I will build my Church (singular).

    Where is that Church today? OR Which Church is that today?

    Mary
     
  6. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you....Where is your evidence that Constantine set up and funded Ecumenical Councils (plural)?

    Historical Mary
     
  7. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    We can talk about this. but do you see what I mean...there are people that could see this for the first time. This is all history, not a lot of mystery. History bores people. lol.
    I will be back in a 45 minutes ...Get your questions together
     
  8. Giuliano

    Giuliano Active Member

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    I don't know about the plural, but he did fund the first one. I include the link here in case you want to read the whole article -- CCEL says:

    Hither, in the year 325, the twentieth of his reign (therefore the festive vicennalia), the emperor summoned the bishops of the empire by a letter of invitation, putting at their service the public conveyances, and liberally defraying from the public treasury the expenses of their residence in Nicaea and of their return. Each bishop was to bring with him two presbyters and three servants.1318 They travelled partly in the public post carriages, partly on horses, mules, or asses, partly on foot. Many came to bring their private disputes before the emperor, who caused all their papers, without reading them, to be burned, and exhorted the parties to reconciliation and harmony.

    Then to the time before the council ended, and we how religion and the government got mixed with there being civil penalties for disagreeing with the Church -- the government was taking on the power to impose its idea of order on the Church as if the authority of Bishops needed help:

    Almost all the bishops subscribed the creed, Hosius at the head, and next him the two Roman presbyters in the name of their bishop. This is the first instance of such signing of a document in the Christian church. Eusebius of Caesarea also signed his name after a day’s deliberation, and vindicated this act in a letter to his diocese. Eusebius of Nicomedia and Theognis of Nicaea subscribed the creed without the condemnatory formula, and for this they were deposed and for a time banished, but finally consented to all the decrees of the council. The Arian historian Philostorgius, who however deserves little credit,1331 accuses them of insincerity in having substituted, by the advice of the emperor, for ὁμο-ούσιος(of the same essence) the semi-Arian word ὁμοι-ούσιος(of like essence). Only two Egyptian bishops, Theonas and Secundus, persistently refused to sign, and were banished with Arius to Illyria. The books of Arius were burned and his followers branded as enemies of Christianity.

    This is the first example of the civil punishment of heresy; and it is the beginning of a long succession of civil persecutions for all departures from the Catholic faith. Before the union of church and state ecclesiastical excommunication was the extreme penalty. Now banishment and afterwards even death were added, because all offences against the church were regarded as at the same time crimes against the state and civil society.

    The two other points on which the council of Nicaea decided, the Easter question and the Meletian schism, have been already spoken of in their place. The council issued twenty canons in reference to discipline. The creed and the canons were written in a book, and again signed by the bishops. The council issued a letter to the Egyptian and Libyan bishops as to the decision of the three main points; the emperor also sent several edicts to the churches, in which he ascribed the decrees to divine inspiration, and set them forth as laws of the realm. On the twenty-ninth of July, the twentieth anniversary of his accession, he gave the members of the council a splendid banquet in his palace, which Eusebius (quite too susceptible to worldly splendor) describes as a figure of the reign of Christ on earth; he remunerated the bishops lavishly, and dismissed them with a suitable valedictory, and with letters of commendation to the authorities of all the provinces on their homeward way.
     
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  9. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    That will get her started. Check please! We are not going to get a dollar amount but....
    Of the seven councils recognized in whole or in part by both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Church as ecumenical, all were called by a Roman emperor. The emperor gave them legal status within the entire Roman Empire. All were held in the eastern part of the Roman Empire. The early councils were convoked by emperors who summoned the bishops, paid their expenses, and gave their decisions binding force. Whether or not a council was finally accepted as ecumenical was, in fact, based on later recognition by the church rather than on its actual characteristics.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    All I'm saying is that if you were here to attempt to convert any of us to what you believe...I don't see anything wrong with that.

    It is dialogue in the long run that will bring us to a consensus on what it is that the Bible actually teaches.

    If we want to have unity of doctrine; both concerning essentials and concerning non-essentials (which are more important than one might think...see Luke 16:10), then the hashing out of doctrines through discussion (not debate) will be essential.

    What is the difference between discussion and debate? Debate is an attempt to prove that my pov is right, to the exclusion of having an open enough mind to see whether the pov of the other person may be right.

    Discussion is bringing the word of the Lord to bear on an issue; and we let the chips fall where they may.
     
  11. Philip James

    Philip James Well-Known Member

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    To invite them to the wedding feast!

    The master then ordered the servant, 'Go out to the highways and hedgerows and make people come in that my home may be filled.

    Peace be with you!
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It would be the body of Christ, composed of all those who truly believe in Him.
     
  13. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    Should have gone without saying...

    Catholics are welcome here and the board's leadership recognizes them as a Christian denomination.
     
  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Active Member

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    I think so too. If people seriously want to come to know the truth, they want to know if they're wrong about something. People interested only in proving they're right . . . well, I think you know what I mean.
     
  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Active Member

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    I would hope the people here have all been invited to the wedding feast. If they don't attend, then we may have to go find others, "both good and bad."
     
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    then go with that bro, if you think ppl who worship someone between you and Christ is a Christian, then your definitions are going to be applied to you, not me. I have no probs with Catholics, ok, but then i have no probs with...ppl who ID with other pagans groups that are not as socially acceptable, too. And i am not interested in converting anyone, i understand if you are though ok.

    He is someone who kneels to someone, another living person iow, who claims to be "lord of lords," and you can call that Christian for as long as you like bro, no problem for me ok. But fwiw i suggest you keep in mind that his daugter cannot marry your son with his blessing, awright?
     
  18. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Thank you justbyfaith.

    There are several billion "who truly believe in Him" (Christians). That means, according to your theory, there are several billion churches.

    Which one of these several billion churches is the pillar and foundation of truth? (1 Timothy 3:15)

    Which one of these several billion churches do we go to that fulfills "the church" in Matthew 18:17?

    Which one of these several billion churches is the rock that Jesus built his Church on? (Matthew 16:18)

    Mary
     
  19. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Hello Marymog,
    So I see you have it all straighten out. lol.
     
  20. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Would you care to refute what I have written with an articulate defense using Scripture?

    Or do you prefer only to interject in other's conversations with sniping?
     
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