Revelation refutes your assertion that the death of the unjust is permanent.......................... [Rev 20:5 KJV] 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection................the rest of the dead (the unjust) lived again after the thousand year kingdom
ARE THEIR TWO CHURCHES OR JUST ONE?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Past tense.
This is talking about life under the sun......life and death on earth Not about our eternal state
Where do you find a trial period for salvation in scripture
We have Gods words to believe in Paul's epistles
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Oh, sorry, no. However, in all things past, present, and future, we should understand that just as we "were" crucified with Christ, all things have come to fruition in His time on earth as the Son of Man revealing all that was even "before the foundation of the world." Thus, the time of salvation is not that time of our own coming into the world or into the fold, but in His time--which was even before the world began, and then only revealed in the fullness of time.
It's always been one collective church of Christ in the 1st century (the Bride of Christ) which was governed and watched over by the Apostles until the Lord Yeshua came to get them.
There is only one church today the body of Christ, Please tell me what you mean, what is the one true church?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Jesus said that those raised at the time when his kingdom rules (not those of the first resurrection, but of the one to follow) will enter period of “judgment”. (John 5:28-29) the word is often translated as “damnation” but that is an error because any Interlinear will show that there is no “damnation”.
“Judgment” is what he said.
This word in Greek means...
- “a separating, sundering, separation
- a trial, contest
- selection
- judgment
- opinion or decision given concerning anything
- esp. concerning justice and injustice, right or wrong”
- opinion or decision given concerning anything
What does this judgment or trial include? For justice to be administered, it has to have a trial first to ascertain guilt or innocence.....our whole judicial system is based on that, as it was established in ancient Israel. A person had to be proven guilty or innocent before sentence was passed.
In order for justice to be done for those who lived in foreign nations or among believers in false gods who never got to hear about the true God or his son, there has to be a trial period for them because justice is not served unless a person knows the law...or is under the authority of God, like Israel were.....its the reason why they alone were given God’s laws....they were judged by the laws.
Paul’s writings are never in disagreement with the teachings or Jesus or the other apostles.....if you think so, who told you this? Paul was educated by the same person who educated them. He did not make Paul into the leader of another “church”.
Paul’s assignment was unique in that he was not an uneducated fisherman, but a highly educated Pharisee, sent as “an apostle to the nations”.....one who could hold his own against, both the Pharisees and the learned Greeks, who would have laughed at uneducated men trying to teach them anything.
Yes he was, because he was a Jew who had no belief in immortal souls. That pagan Greek concept crept into many religions that the devil created to perpetuate his first lie.....that “you surely will not die”.....he introduced the means whereby the dead are not really dead, but go on living in some invisible realm that is cut off from the living. The devil has many ways to convince people of this lie....even visits from dead loved ones or NDE’s. Satanic trickery!
Under God’s law his people were forbidden from practicing any form of spiritism....
“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.” (Deut 18:9-12 ESV)
And this was for obvious reasons....the devil’s trickery.
Adam was not told that he had a “soul” but that he “became” one when God started him breathing. That is what a soul is...a living, breathing creature, including humans and animals....all created mortal.....which for humans, (who alone were created in God’s image), didn’t mean that they had to die...only that they could if they broke God’s law. That is what the two trees in the garden were there for.
Free will would determine if they could be obedient to their Creator out of loyalty and respect due to their Sovereign Ruler.....or not. Their choices went on to affect all of us today.
Death is still the same as it ever was....it is the cessation of life....the very opposite.....not a continuation of it somewhere else. How many people have continued to swallow that lie because it comes from the church, but not the Bible.
How is it that every false religion in the world believes this lie...except God’s people, to whom it was never mentioned. (Eccl 9:5, 10; Eccl 3:19-20)
There is no trial period only punishment.............[Luk 16:24 KJV] 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Just a few examples otherwise
Jesus taught to keep the law.............[Mat 8:4 KJV] 4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
.[Mat 19:17 KJV] 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Paul did not teach the law..............[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Jesus said to be forgiven you have to forgive....................[Mar 11:26 KJV] 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Paul said we are forgiven...................[Eph 4:32 KJV] 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
You do understand that this was a parable? One among many.
And you do understand that no punishment in Israel under God’s law involved prolonged torment or torture of any kind?
The death penalty was swiftly carried out, which is what made Christ’s death something the devil orchestrated, under cruel Roman law, not God’s law. There was no reason for an innocent man to suffer and if Christ had been tried under Jewish Law, stoning was the preferred method.....as we know from David’s battle with Goliath.....a stone striking in the right place, meant instant death.
You also have to understand that Jews did not believe in an immortal soul that survived the death of the body....so the dead in Jewish belief were actually dead in their graves awaiting a promised resurrection.....which was not to take place until Messiahs Kingdom rule. (John 5:28-29) In order to experience pain or torment a person would have to be alive. (Eccl 9:5, 10) The dead are not alive...they “sleep” as the Scriptures clearly state.
I see you have a preference for the ‘ol KJV.....can we not discuss Scripture in a language we all speak?
Let’s take your examples....
“Jesus taught to keep the Law”....why? Because he was Jewish and all Jews were under the Law from birth.
Jesus lived and died a Jew. So Matt 8:4 in plain English...and in context.....
“When he came down from the mountain, great crowds followed him. And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.” And Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I will; be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to them.” (Matt 8:1-4 ESV)
This is a Jew speaking to a fellow Jew under law....
Matt 19:17....
“And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” (ESV)
Again this is a Jew speaking to a fellow Jew. The old law covenant did not end until Christ’s death. He instituted the new covenant the night before, with his apostles.
“Paul did not teach the law..............[Rom 6:14 KJV] 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.”
Again what time period are we in here? Christ had ended the Law with his death....Paul came after Christ’s death and resurrection, so Jewish Christians were no longer under law.
How do you people get so lost in the Scriptures which plainly state their truth if you are not constrained by false doctrines.
Now, I’m not quite sure what you mean here? But it seems as if you are putting meaning to this comparison as if they are contradictory?....the basis for your assumption that there are two churches....there never was.
Jesus was teaching Jews, not Christians.....the establishment of the Christians as a separate group happened after Chris’s death.....so forgiveness was part of the Lord’s Prayer......we are to forgive others if we want to be forgiven ourselves....a wonderful principle. Was Paul superseding that command somehow, saying that Christ’s forgiveness meant that we no longer had to do that because we have a guarantee of God’s forgiveness in Christ?
As a former Pharisee, Paul was very conversant with the Law and the Prophets, which included Jeremiah’s prophesy in Jer 31:31-34....
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (ESV)
What did Paul know was coming that his fellow Jews completely missed? The new covenant, which liberated the Jewish Christians from the burden of a law that they could not keep. Even to this day Orthodox Jews are weighed down by performances of the law that they have taken to ridiculous extremes.
The new covenant didn’t mean that they could not sin, but that Christ had paid for their sins as a guarantee of forgiveness. The animal sacrifices in Israel gave them a temporary means of forgiveness until Messiahs coming. So Paul, aware of the strengthening effects of his presence among his brethren said to them.....
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Phil 2: 12-13 ESV)
Christ’s sacrifice had already guaranteed forgiveness of their sins...now it was up to them to maintain their own faith and obedience to the end. (Matt 24: 13)
Jesus taught the law Paul didnt ......thats a difference in teaching no matter how you qualify it
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
What was the “reality” expressed in this parable when we understand that Jesus’ audience were Jewish with no belief in an immortal soul?
The reality expressed was not about heaven or hell, but about life and death, both spiritual and physical.
The two men in the parable were representative of two groups...the Pharisees were pictured by the rich man as Jesus had mentioned how much they loved money.
The beggar pictured the “lost sheep” to who Jesus was sent....spiritually starving but hoping for a few crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table.
Their deaths pictured a change in their status...with Jesus ministry, these two groups changed places. The beggar now occupied the place of favour with God. That is what the “bosom of Abraham” was....and the Pharisees had lost it because of rejecting Jesus as their Messiah. The beggar was now in a position of favour with God because of accepting Jesus as their Shepherd, and becoming one of his flock.
The torment suffered by the rich man was because of Jesus’ teachings and his condemnation of them as the hypocrites they were. (Matt 23)
Do you speak archaic English at home? Or in your everyday life.....? It’s a dead language. So much has changed in our language in over 300 years.....it’s not “our language” at all anymore.
For new Bible students it’s a nightmare.
Jesus was born and died a Jew...he was sent only to the Jews.....
Paul was an “apostle to the nations”....to people NOT under law. If you understand that, it’s not a difficult concept. Jews were under law and Gentiles were not. Each were sent to two separate national groups.
When the circumcision issue arose, it was causing dissension among the brethren because certain influential Jews were trying to force the gentile Christians to observe the law, which they as a nation were under obligation to obey from birth. They wanted the gentiles to get circumcised....but did God want them to? That was the question, so they sent representatives to Jerusalem to the apostles and older men to sort out the dilemma. How did it end?
Selected verses from Acts 15....
“And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.” (NKJV)
There you have the Scriptural evidence for why Jewish Christians and gentiles were not under the law of Moses, after Jesus’ death. The new covenant was in force, and those who accepted Jesus as Messiah were no longer under the old covenant, neither Jew nor gentile.
Doug said:
Jesus taught that all Christians must prove faithful until death....Paul did not teach something different....
Jesus said.....
“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.” (Rev 2:10 NKJV)
Being “faithful until death” was a choice.....not a foregone conclusion....there were conditions and if they were not met, the “crown of life” could be given to someone who would prove to be more worthy.
As Peter said....
“For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22 NKJV)
Where do you get the idea that an imperfect human cannot fall away...? Satan will continue to apply pressure till the day he is abyssed. If we falter, we can repent, but it doesn’t mean we never need forgiveness....and to be forgiving. “Faithful until death” means what it says...
[Act 23:8 KJV] 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
The Pharisees did believe in the resurrection
[Luk 16:22-23 KJV] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
It says rich man not Pharisee and it is about hell
