Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus promised to give us a kind of water that quenches thirst for ever.
But we understand this as a metaphor. It does not refer to literal water or literal thirst.
Same for references to hell as eternal fire.
Hell is a thirst that cannot be quenched by any water we can find on our own. Only the water offered by the Gospel can quench it.

I personally believe in hell as a state of the soul: a state where we find ourselves separated from God, in dispair, with no solution whatsoever at hand. No exit. Just like the belly of the big fish in the middle of the ocean where Jonah felt trapped.
Certainly I did not come with a new idea. Theologians have held a similar view for centuries.

God did not create hell for men, says the Bible. It was created for Satan and demons.
God's plan is perfect and will not be frustrated. Things will not end up in a different direction than planned.

 

[Matthias]

Bible word for death is not the same as in a word dictionary.

What is the Bible word for death?

Life and death aren’t synonyms; they’re antonyms.

Can you use your Bible to show what death means in the Scriptures when referring to the death of the wicked?

Yes. That’s what I’ve begun doing in this thread.

What is kind of death does sin cause?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. If you’ll clarify your question I’ll try to answer it.

In the meantime, what does a passage like Romans 6:23 look like if death means life?

”For the wages of sin is [life] …”

 

[Matthias]

“He is the only one who possesses immortality; he lives in unapproachable light; no human being has seen him, or can see him. To him be eternal honor and power, Amen!”

(1 Timothy 6:17, NTFE)

“He is the only one who possesses immortality“ -> and so does all of mankind? And - as one person has informed me in this thread - so do worms?

 

[Matthias]

I watched the video this morning. What she read from the section of Wenham’s book concerning conditional immortality is pretty standard fare. What drew my attention and captivates my thought was the question she used in the title -> “Are we as fair as Wenham to positions with which we disagree?”

That goes beyond the position of conditional immortality; it applies to all positions about all things.

The answer to the question will vary from person to person. What I’ve found in life is that the majority of people believe what we’re taught and don’t give much thought, let alone invest time investigating, what we haven’t been taught. If it doesn’t agree with what we’ve been taught, we have a tendency to reject it out of hand.

 

[Matthias]

What is the first Bible verse you memorized? For me it was John 3:16.

Since I was raised KJVO, I’ll first quote it as I learned it as a child.

”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

(KJV)

”God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.”

(GW)

“Perish” and “die” are synonymous in the translation comparison, as are “everlasting life” and “eternal life”.

To perish is to die, the opposite of having everlasting / eternal life.

What is the key which moves a person from one state or category to the other? Believing in God’s Son, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah.

Those who believe in Jesus will not die (that is, will not die the second death - it is appointed for everyone to die the first death) but will have unending life (when they are resurrected from the grave).

The promise of eternal life - better still, the unending life of the age to come - is conditional. It is promised only to those who believe in God’s Son.

What about those who do not believe in God’s Son? They aren’t promised unending life; they’re warned of their certain destruction in the lake of fire.

The simple message to those who don’t yet believe should be this: Repent or die.

The message my Sunday School teacher taught me was this: Repent or live in hell.

 

[Matthias]

Bible word for death is not the same as in a word dictionary.

Is the Bible word for “die“ the same as the Bible word for “live”? If the words are synonymous, how do we make good sense out of a passage like Romans 14:8?

“for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord: therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.”

”Live” and “die” don’t convey the same meaning.

While thinking about Romans 14:8 my mind went on ahead to Romans 14:9.

”For to this end, Messiah died and lived again …”

If ”died” has the same meaning as “lived” or if the words are interchangeable, then we could have something like Paul saying, “For to this end, Messiah lived and died again” - would that be palatable to you?

The dead can (and will) be made to live again -> via bodily resurrection; from lifeless to living, not from living to living.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The simple message to those who don’t yet believe should be this: Repent or die.

The message my Sunday School teacher taught me was this: Repent or live in hell.

What is the meaning of "Repent" ?

The meaning was straightforward, I guess, for early Christians.
Jesus had explained what repentance meant through different parables, stories and statements.
We also find clear examples on how Jesus forgave sins and healed troubled hearts and bodies.

Repentance included coming to God with humbleness and not with pride. It included seeking our brother to make peace with him. It included being born to a new life in which we wouldn't want to commit that sin again. As an external manifestation of such repentance and commitment to a new life, the person would be baptized.

Every time a troubled person approached Jesus, He did not "test" that person with theological questions, as a pre-condition to be pardoned or healed. Jesus just needed to know if the person believed he/she could be healed.

 

[Matthias]

What is the meaning of "Repent" ?

The meaning was straightforward, I guess, for early Christians.
Jesus had explained what repentance meant through different parables, stories and statements.
We also find clear examples on how Jesus forgave sins and healed troubled hearts and bodies.

Repentance included coming to God with humbleness and not with pride. It included seeking our brother to make peace with him. It included being born to a new life in which we wouldn't want to commit that sin again. As an external manifestation of such repentance and commitment to a new life, the person would be baptized.

Every time a troubled person approached Jesus, He did not "test" that person with theological questions, as a pre-condition to be pardoned or healed. Jesus just needed to know if the person believed he/she could be healed.

You make some very good points but I disagree that he did not test with theological questions.

 

[APAK]

What is the meaning of "Repent" ?

The meaning was straightforward, I guess, for early Christians.
Jesus had explained what repentance meant through different parables, stories and statements.
We also find clear examples on how Jesus forgave sins and healed troubled hearts and bodies.

Repentance included coming to God with humbleness and not with pride. It included seeking our brother to make peace with him. It included being born to a new life in which we wouldn't want to commit that sin again. As an external manifestation of such repentance and commitment to a new life, the person would be baptized.

Every time a troubled person approached Jesus, He did not "test" that person with theological questions, as a pre-condition to be pardoned or healed. Jesus just needed to know if the person believed he/she could be healed.

Welcome to this site Pancho. May God continue to bless you in your life and loved ones.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You make some very good points but I disagree that he did not test with theological questions.

Do you have any example of Jesus conditioning his forgiveness or power to a person, to providing the right answers to theological questions?

 

[Matthias]

Do you have any example in mind of Jesus conditioning his forgiveness or power to a person, to providing the right answers to theological questions?

Yes. The one foremost in my mind is “Who do you say that I am?”

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes. The one foremost in my mind is “Who do you say that I am?”

Jesus was not asking that question as a condition to heal or forgive, my friend.
In fact, the passage shows that the people that Jesus healed, taught or forgave believed all kind of things about Him.
As the text says, some believed he was Elijah, or Jeremiah, or any other prophet.

As you see, nothing of this stopped Jesus from doing his saving ministry among people.
I'm not saying that we should not pursue to know more and more about Jesus. Of course we should know more and more about Him.
What I say is that knowing exactly who He is should never be regarded as a condition to get God's grace.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus was not asking that question as a condition to heal or forgive, my friend.
In fact, the passage shows that the people that Jesus healed, taught or forgave believed all kind of things about Him.
As the text says, some believed he was Elijah, or Jeremiah, or any other prophet.

As you see, nothing of this stopped Jesus from doing his saving ministry among people.
I'm not saying that we should not pursue to know more and more about Jesus. Of course we should know more and more about Him.
What I say is that knowing exactly who He is should never be regarded as a condition to get God's grace.

Matthew 13:58 comes to mind. Also the voice from the cloud commanding, “Listen to him!” (Luke 9:35).

The only way to God is through the Messiah.

 

[Matthias]

Do you have any example of Jesus conditioning his forgiveness or power to a person, to providing the right answers to theological questions?

Let’s look at a second example: “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.“ (Luke 18:19).

 

[Matthias]

Do you have any example of Jesus conditioning his forgiveness or power to a person, to providing the right answers to theological questions?

You asked a very good question.

A third example: Jesus and the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:21-28).

 

[Titus]

”Live” and “die” don’t convey the same meaning.

Why are you discussing life and die?
I asked you to define Bible death caused from sin.

In the meantime, what does a passage like Romans 6:23 look like if death means life?

Please forget about life, I asked you to define death of the wicked.
We are discussing the damned in hell, do they go on living forever or are they eventually destroyed.
That is the subject.

Quote: The destruction is everlasting; the destruction process isn’t.

Once a person has been destroyed in the lake of fire, they cease to exist.

Destruction in the lake of fire is an extermination event. It is the second death from which there is no recovery

Here you talk about death of the wicked.
The Bible defines death caused by sin as Seperation from God,
Isaiah 59:2,
- but your iniquities have separated you from God and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear

Bible death caused from sin means seperation.
Hell is the eternal place of seperation from God because their sins were not remitted.

Adam was told he would  die if he sinned against God.

He did not cease to exist.
His sin seperated His relationship with God.
The Bible calls that death.

Genesis 2:17,
- but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely  die

You said death in hell is total destruction where the wicked cease to exist.
Therefore their suffering ceases to exist.

Quote: "Once a person has been destroyed in the lake of fire they cease to exist "
This means the punishment or suffering is not everlasting.

Your belief directly contradicts Scripture,
2Thessalonians 1:8,9
- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ
- these shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord(seperation)

Revelation 20:10,
- and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone...
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

satan's torment is everlasting he will not be destroyed where he ceases to live.
This is the same hell mankind goes to.

Revelation 14:11,
- and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, they have no rest day and night

Hell's torment is forever. You cannot be tormented if you cease to exist.

The second death is eternal seperation from God in hell.
Revelation 21:8,
- but as for the cowardly the faithless the detestable as for murderers the sexually immoral sorcerers idolaters and all liars their portion will be in the lake of fire which burns like sulfur which is the second death

Hell is the second death(seperation from God)

Physical death 1st. Death
Hell 2nd Death

 

[Matthias]

Why are you discussing life and die?
I asked you to define Bible death caused from sin.

Please forget about life, I asked you to define death of the wicked.
We are discussing the damned in hell, do they go on living forever or are they eventually destroyed.
That is the subject.

Here you talk about death of the wicked.
The Bible defines death caused by sin as Seperation from God,
Isaiah 59:2,
- but your iniquities have separated you from God and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear

Bible death caused from sin means seperation.
Hell is the eternal place of seperation from God because their sins were not remitted.

Adam was told he would  die if he sinned against God.

He did not cease to exist.
His sin seperated His relationship with God.
The Bible calls that death.

Genesis 2:17,
- but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eat thereof thou shalt surely  die

You said death in hell is total destruction where the wicked cease to exist.
Therefore their suffering ceases to exist.

Quote: "Once a person has been destroyed in the lake of fire they cease to exist "
This means the punishment or suffering is not everlasting.

Your belief directly contradicts Scripture,
2Thessalonians 1:8,9
- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ
- these shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord(seperation)

Revelation 20:10,
- and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone...
And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

satan's torment is everlasting he will not be destroyed where he ceases to live.
This is the same hell mankind goes to.

Revelation 14:11,
- and the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, they have no rest day and night

Hell's torment is forever. You cannot be tormented if you cease to exist.

The second death is eternal seperation from God in hell.
Revelation 21:8,
- but as for the cowardly the faithless the detestable as for murderers the sexually immoral sorcerers idolaters and all liars their portion will be in the lake of fire which burns like sulfur which is the second death

Hell is the second death(seperation from God)

Physical death 1st. Death
Hell 2nd Death

How much more separated from God can a wicked person get than being consumed in the lake of fire?

No longer in existence is the ultimate separation from God.

 

[Titus]

Francisco Beans

 

[Titus]

How much more separated from God can a wicked person get than being consumed in the lake of fire?

Death from sin means seperation from God.
Adam did not cease to exist when God told him he would die.
Bible death from sin is seperation from God not ceasing to exist.
Give the Bible passage that teaches your idea of death from sin?

 

[Ritajanice]

We are spiritually dead, alienated from God as a non believer.