@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

[Aunty Jane]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Firm
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Please don’t quote the KJB in responses to me...it’s a language I do not speak and do not comprehend well.

I speak modern English and appreciate modern English translations which is why I use Biblegateway because there is access to so many translations. I use the NWT occasionally.
I also like to look up the Hebrews scriptures in the Jewish Tanakh to see how the Jews interpret their own scripture.

If there was a point to the scripture you quoted, can you just explain why you posted it......ambiguity is the seat of misunderstanding. I’d like to know why you say things, not just that you say them.

 

[Johann]

Please don’t quote the KJB in responses to me...it’s a language I do not speak and do not comprehend well.

I speak modern English and appreciate modern English translations which is why I use Biblegateway because there is access to so many translations. I use the NWT occasionally.
I also like to look up the Hebrews scriptures in the Jewish Tanakh to see how the Jews interpret their own scripture.

If there was a point to the scripture you quoted, can you just explain why you posted it......ambiguity is the seat of misunderstanding. I’d like to know why you say things, not just that you say them.

Thought I 'll give you an assisting hand/help, obviously not needed.
You've gone through enough "missiles" and though you won't confess it, words hurt.
I'm not here to hurt you.
Shalom
J.

 

[Adventageous]

I was rather hoping you are not going to say that, not using commentaries.....yet using EGW "commentaries" Odd.

You asked if I use commentaries. I told you plainly that I do not "use" commentaries for Bible study.

The material by sister White is no "commentary". They are two completely different things, which can be discussed.

In my research, I refer to all manner of material, which includes ancient documents, so called 'ECF', Rabbinical materials, Historians, and other Christian writers and their materials. I do not "use" them to understand what the Bible says. I "refer" to them, for others, in demonstration of a point I show "from" the scriptures.

The confusion is upon your part in the minutae or distinction. Thank you.

 

[Adventageous]

I was rather hoping you are not going to say that, not using commentaries.....yet using EGW "commentaries" Odd.

Michael and his angels ... the dragon ... and his angels. It was fitting that as the rebellion arose from unfaithful angels and their leader, so they should be overcome by faithful angels and their archangel, in heaven. On earth they are fittingly to be overcome, as represented by the beast and false prophet, by the Son of man and His human saints (Rev_19:14-21).
...

I don't see, in this chapter, how you can connect "Michael and his angels" with Christ Jesus.

No offense, of course.

May this help you:

Michael The Archangel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Michael The Archangel FilesYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

See Chapters 06 & 07 and Appendix X6. (Left hand column)

[07] Revelation 12, An Unbreakable Chiastic Structure

There is inherently within the very texts of Revelation 12 a very specific structure, a chiastic structure/pattern [1,2,3,3,2,1, or A,B,C,C,B,A, or A,B,C,A,B,C, etc] which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB].

Notice the chiastic structure.

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 KJB = Woman, Child and Dragon​

​

[B1] Revelation 12:6 KJB = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days [years]​

​

[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 KJB = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven​

​

[D1] Revelation 12:10 KJB = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory​

​

[D2] Revelation 12:11 KJB = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their [overcoming saints] Victory in Him​

​

[C2] Revelation 12:12 KJB = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus' body​

​

[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 KJB = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time [aka, 3 1/2 times or 1,260 days [years]]​

​

[A2] Revelation 12:17 KJB = Woman, her Seed and Dragon​

An example of another parallelism within the greater:

Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

[A1] Michael – Leader​

​

[B1] his angels – Followers​

​

[A2] Dragon – Leader​

​

[B2] his angels - Followers​

Looking at these two combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon”, followed with “Michael”:

[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:​

​

“Dragon” - Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB​

​

“serpent” - Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB​

​

“Devil” - Revelation 12:9,12 KJB​

​

“Satan” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​

​

“accuser of our brethren” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​

​

“his” [angels] - Revelation 12:7,9 KJB​

​

Compare also:​

​

“neither was their place found any more in heaven” - Revelation 12:8 KJB​

​

“was cast out … cast out into the earth” - Revelation 12:9 KJB​

​

“is cast down” - Revelation 12:10 KJB​

​

[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:​

​

“Michael” - Revelation 12:7 KJB​

​

“Lamb” - Revelation 12:11 KJB​

​

“child” - Revelation 12:2,4,5 KJB​

​

“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” - Revelation 12:5,13 KJB​

​

“seed” - Revelation 12:17 KJB​

​

“it” - Revelation 12:4 KJB​

​

“Jesus” [even the “testimony” of] - Revelation 12:17 KJB​

​

“Christ” - Revelation 12:10,17​

​

“his” [angels] – Revelation 12:7 KJB​

​

Compare also:​

​

“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​

​

“rule all” - Revelation 12:5 KJB​

After considering these things, let some questions be asked, and fill them in by the texts of the King James Bible themselves:

Who is the “Dragon” of Revelation 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB?

Who is the “serpent” of Revelation 12:9,14,15 KJB?

Who is the “devil” of Revelation 12:9,12 KJB?

Who is the “Satan” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who is the “accuser of the brethren” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who was “cast out” of Revelation 12:9 KJB?

Who was “cast down” of Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Who is the one which “cast out of his mouth water as a flood” of Revelation 12:15,16 KJB?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Does the fallen arch-rebel have many designations, KJB?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-rebel's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Who opposes the “Dragon”?

Who opposes the “serpent”?

Who opposes the “devil”?

Who opposes the “Satan”?

Who opposes the “accuser of the brethren”?

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that "Dragon"?

Revelation 12 KJB:

Is there a “woman” and a “child” and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:1-6 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” [1,260 days; aka “1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time”; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:6 KJB?

Is there a “war” in “Heaven” between “Michael” [and “his angels”] and “the Dragon” [and “his angels”], wherein “the Dragon and his angels” were “cast out” and “neither was their place found any more in heaven” in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB?

Did the “power of his [the Father's] Christ” on earth gain the “victory” and “salvation” over and from the “accuser of our brethren” in Revelation 12:10 KJB?

Did “they” on earth also “overcome” “him” [the accuser] by the “blood of the lamb” and by “the word of their testimony” in Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Is there “rejoic[ing]” in the “Heavens” for them “that dwell in them”, but yet “woe” to the “inhabiters of the earth and of the sea” for the “Dragon” being cast out of “Heaven” is now “come down” unto them and was full of “wrath” and “persecuted” the Church in Revelation 12:12-13 KJB?

Is there a “woman” entering into a “wilderness” for “a time, and times, and half a time ” [1 time + 2 times [dual; plural of time] and half/dividing of time' aka 1,260 days [“a thousand two hundred and threescore days”]; aka “42 months”] in Revelation 12:14 KJB?

Is there a “woman” and the “remnant” of “her seed” [aka “child”] and a “Dragon” in Revelation 12:15-17 KJB?

Revelation 12 KJB

Whose “angels” oppose the “angels” of that Michael"?

Who opposes the one which has the True “testimony"?

Who opposes the “Christ”, even "Jesus Christ"?

Who opposes the “child", even the "man child" and "it"?

Who opposes the “lamb”?

Who opposes “Michael”?

According to the text of Revelation 12:7 KJB, what is the arch-defender's designation in “heaven” in this verse?

Does the Son of God have many designations?

Are there any “angels” which belong, “his”, to the singular person in the verses cited, KJB?

Who is the one who has a “testimony” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the one to “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the one “caught up” of Revelation 12:5 KJB?

Who is the “seed” of Revelation 12:17 KJB?

Who is the “child” and “man child” and “it” of Revelation 12:2,4,5,13 KJB?

Who is the “Christ” and “Jesus Christ” of Revelation 12:10,17 KJB?

Who is the “lamb” of Revelation 12:11 KJB?

Who is “Michael” of Revelation 12:7 KJB?

If the structure is truly Chiastic in its nature, then can the identification of the beings therein ever be broken [even according to John 10:35 KJB]?

If the Church is the Woman on the earth, and she the Body in Revelation 12:11-13 KJB and the Dragon fought against her, who then is the Heavenly Head in Revelation 12:7-9 KJB, who the Dragon warred against there?

 

[Adventageous]

This sounds far fetched, Jesus tried to tell each [EGW and William Miller] what their mistake was?
Would you say her writings was/is inspired brother?

In the mistake comment, you misunderstood what was stated by myself. The mistake, was made by:

[1] Disciples, upon the first part of the 2,300 (Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-12), namely the 70 Weeks (Daniel 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14, 7:1-28), and had their own bitter disappointment (Mat. 9:15; Mar. 2:20; Luk. 5:35, 24:17, etc) which later turned to great joy. Jesus had to rebuke them for their mistaken notion (Acts 1:6), even though He had warned them over and over again, about the real prophesied events (Mat. 20:18, etc), and they had thought the "time" (Matthew 4:17) prophecies pointed to Jesus ruling as King in Israel, but were greatly mistaken, having misidentified the event, but not the time.​

​

[2] William Miller, Millerites and early Advent movement, in the Great Awakening, unto the Great Disappointment, which held the latter part of the 2,300 (Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-12), or ending of it, which terminated in 1843/44, as per the other corroborative time prophecies, namely the 1,260 (Daniel 7:25, 12:7; Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6,14, 13:5; Luke 21:24, from AD 538 - AD 1798, beginning the "time of the end") and 1,290 (Daniel 12:11, AD 508 - AD 1798) unto 1843/44, with the ending of the 2,300 and 1,335 (Daniel 12:12; Revelation 14:13, AD 508 - AD 1843/44), and the ending of the time to begin the 50th Year, Jubilee (AD 1793 - AD 1843/44, which AD 1793 - AD 1797/8 in the 3 1/2 of Revelation 11:9,11), and so they had though the time prophecies calculated to the second advent of Jesus, when it was to his shifting in ministry in the Heavenly places, from Holy (Revelation 1:9-20, 2:1, 3:1, 4:1-5) to Most Holy (Revelation 3:8-9) to complete the Day of Atonement there. Thus the event was misidentified, but not the time.​

Type and Antitype, in perfect parallel.

As for sister Ellen G White, and the materials under consdieration, it would depend, upon which materials you are referring to.

As for instance, the Testimonies to the Church, Spirit of Prophecy, and the like are inspired of God, some by direct vision and counsel from Jesus, others through inspiration of the Holy Ghost, or visitation of angels, etc.

Other materials, are simple letters to family, grocery lists, every day materials and personal effects, and are only 'inspired' in the sense of the common inspiration that it is either God leading us or the devil influencing us. They are not classed in the same category as the first.

Other materials, such as the Conflict series, has some "inspiration" (first category) and actual statements from the Spirit of Prophecy materials, with a mixture of chosen historical quotations (by D'Aubigny, etc), Bible references (inspired of the Holy Ghost before hand), and insights from personal study of other materials, and yet they are combined in such a way that they are in a sense 'over all' 'inspired' of God in the comp[leted whole, but not in the same ways as category 1 (visions, dreams, direct communication, etc).

Other materials are compilations after she died, and are put together from the writings of sister White, by other men, women and councils. Thy are useful to a certain degree, though of late, there have been changes which are not warranted to some compilations, which sister White foretold would happen. Never the less, in all of these things, sister White never once claimed infallibility, and in at least two known places, specificlaly denied have such. She is like any other messenger of the LORD, as found in scripture, like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, etc.

 

[Adventageous]

I get that, but what about the article they wrote?

It's a waste of space and time and riddled with errors, even right out of the gate.

"Seventh-day Adventism is a sect of Christianity that believes, among other things, that worship services should be conducted on the “seventh day” (the Sabbath) instead of on Sunday."

No, Seventh-day Adventists hold "worship" services on any day of the week. God is worshipped 24//7/365, not merely on Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day for gathering, to be sure, and for worship to be sure, but it is for rest, also.

The church meets, for prayer meeting, vespers, evangelistic series, fellowship, bible study, board meetings, business meetings, and worship on every day of the week, and prayer always takes place at each, with Bible reading, and 'worship' in shorter or greater lengths of time depending. In fact, we just met last night ('Wednesday' night, aka beginning the 5th day of the week at sunset) for 'prayer meeting', where we sing songs, pray, read the Bible, study, fellowship and worship God.

The article is written in a bias that has no real understanding of Seventh-day Adventist actual theology or practice.

Another for instance, when it says "Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians ...", that is just utter rubbish. How biased can you get 'orthodox Christians', based on what, and says who? If any Seventh-day Adventist believes like what they call 'orthodox Christian' then they are not a real Seventh-day Advenitst, and are such in name only, which is worthless, and should leave and go join with a group that they actually believe like. I speak of the knowledgeable, not the ignorant.

The article states, "The Adventists were also called Millerites". Yes and no. Some Millerites were called Adventists, while others did not want such an association. They were two groups, which in certain cases overlapped in individuals and groups. It is a category error upon GotQuestions part.

The article continues, "William Miller, a false prophet who predicted Jesus would return in either 1843 or 1844." William Miller never claimed to be a prophet, not claimed to prophesy. What he did was make a calculation (which eventually was corrected with known historical dates and Biblical chronology) based upon Daniel's prophecies, and misinterpreted one or two things in regards the event to take place at their conclusion. He wrote an 'apology', and you are free to read that here, read it carefully:

William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1845 August 13 V 10 N 1 P 1 6 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

William Miller's Apology And Defence, August 1845 August 13 V 10 N 1 P 1 6YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

The article continues, "Jesus had entered the heavenly temple—thus, Miller was right, after all, they said, except his prophecy had a spiritual fulfillment instead of a physical one ..." No. The fulfillment was very much Literal, not "Spiritual". It is just that the location of the prophecy took place in Heaven (3rd, a physical location, "up" on another world), not on Earth.

The article continues, "Today, most Seventh-day Adventists still consider Ellen White to be a prophetess of God, even though many of her prophecies failed to come true." Simply untrue, and undocumented from their POV. Take any prophecy you like, and we can look at it.

The article continues, "Other problematic doctrines in Seventh-day Adventism include the teaching that Satan is the “scapegoat” and will bear believers’ sins ..." and this was already addressed here - @Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

The other points already addressed.

 

[Adventageous]

I’ve found Got Questions to be very helpful and accurate on most issues.

Not myself. And I have read quite a bit of their materials just to see it. They have some things which are accurate, but a lot of bias in other things, and error in others.

 

[Adventageous]

I am aware you dislike video clips, but give this a listen, and come back to me.

Who said "I dislike video clips"? Please find any of my posts and share the link to where I said any such thing? Why lie?

Seen them several times, and rather within the last year I would say. Riddled with errors. Which points would you like to discuss in them. Choose a video, state the time index to consider, and we can look at any point therein.

I would also recommend you read the following:

Critique of Jeremiah Films' Video on Adventism: Intro, Indexes, Points #1-#20

This document contains the indexes, introduction, and first 20 points of the critique of Jeremiah's Films' poorly-put together video on Adventism. The table of contents lists all 239 disputed points. The topical index arranges them by categories.

www.pickle-publishing.com

I have seen your videos, on several occasions in full (I like to poke myself every now and then with nonsense):

Then see my own written articles:

7 (so Called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – SDA : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

7 (so Called) False Predictions From Ellen G. White – SDAYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

15 (so Called) Bible Contradictions From Ellen G. White SDA : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

15 (so Called) Bible Contradictions From Ellen G. White SDAYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

16th (so Called) Bible Contradictions From Ellen G. White - Neither Touch It : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

16th (so Called) Bible Contradictions From Ellen G. White - Neither Touch ItYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET...

archive.org

 

[Adventageous]

And having said this, what is the Bible saying about a false prophet/-etess?

Having said what exactly? What are you referring to specifically?

I know what the Bible says about prophets/prophetess, and what it says about false persons who claim such. Did you want to discuss the true from the false? Be glad to, along with the typology, and prediction, and identification of sister White in scripture at any point in time. Try to keep up now.

 

[Adventageous]

Seventh-day Adventists, in the early days, denied the Trinity, but now they accept it.

Incorrect, in part.

I deny the Roman Catholic definition of "trinity", as does the Seventh-day Adventist church, in it actual writings.

There are several definitions of "trinity", so it depends on what that article refers to.

A. T. (Alonzo Trevier) Jones, even made specific point to this in one of his replies as a lawyer to a government council.

varying definitions of "trinity" *** [I believe in the eternal heavenly 'trio' or "three" (1 Jhn 5:7-8) or "threefold" (Ecc 4:12), which is scriptural and from the SoP/ToJ. However, the vast majority of pioneer Seventh-day Adventists all wrote against the notion of the Roman Catholic "trinity" (many citations upon request). However, I can accept a basic definition of "trinity" if it simply means Three Persons / Beings working together in common Purpose.]

“... The word "trinity" is derived from Latin trinitas, meaning "the number three, a triad, tri". This abstract noun is formed from the adjective trinus (three each, threefold, triple),[21] as the word unitas is the abstract noun formed from unus (one).​

​

The corresponding word in Greek is tριάς, meaning "a set of three" or "the number three".[22] The first recorded use of this Greek word in Christian theology was by Theophilus of Antioch in about the year of 170. He wrote:[23][24]​

​

In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity [Τριάδος], of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man.[25]​

​

Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited as being the first to use the Latin words "Trinity",[26] "person" and "substance"[27] to explain that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "tres personae, una substantia".[28] While "personae" is often translated as "persons," the Latin word personae is better understood as referring to roles as opposed to individual centers of consciousness. ...” - Trinity - Wikipedia - Trinity - Wikipedia​

​

Already we can see at least 2 varying definitions, [1] between Ignatius of Antioch [which is where they were first called “Christians” [Acts 11:26 KJB]], and [2] the later Latin Tertullian, which included “una substantia” (false doctrine). There is nowhere in scripture (KJB) or the SoP/ToJ which states that all three Persons / Beings are of "one substance".

If you want to know what sister White said on the subject, I can discuss that also, in some detail.

 

[Adventageous]

She is wrong here.....Jesus is not Michael

She is right.

Michael The Archangel Files : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Michael The Archangel FilesYOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCplWZcKcFd1tNbHYPS-5t9wINTERNET ARCHIVE: ...

archive.org

See Chapters 11, and Appendix 2 (I do keep giving these to you):

A short listing.

[XX] Appendix 2 – The Short Historical List of those who taught Jesus is Michael the archangel and/or angel of the LORD

[*This list is by far from complete, though representative, and may be added to by any who will continue to diligently search the historical records in various languages and places. By no means, is any source listed herein, rare though they be, that actually denies the Eternal Deity and Godhood of Jesus in any way, agreed to, nor herein promoted as correct or to be advocated, but is rather than scripturally heretical and to be roundly shown to be in error in the love of Jesus.]

Ellen G. White (AD November 26, 1827 – AD July 16, 1915) – Jesus is “Michael”

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”

Roman Catholic Encyclopedia: Jesus is the Angel of the Great Counsel, the Angel of the LORD, etc

Augustine of Hippo (AD 13 November 354 – AD 28 August 430) Jesus is the “Angel of the Testament”, etc

Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202) Jesus is the one that came down and spoke to the Patriarchs under the designation “Angel”.

Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria – Jesus is the “Angel of the Great Counsel”.

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165) – Jesus is called “Angel”, etc

Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, - Jesus is called the “Angel of the mighty counsel”.

Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicised as Tertullian (c. AD 160 – c. AD 225 AD) – Jesus is the ‘Angel’ that spake to Moses from the midst of the bush.

Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims], 1986: - Jesus is the “Lord’s Angel”, and “Angel of the LORD”, and etc.

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) Jesus is called “Angel” and “Archangel”.

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Alexander Cruden (AD May 31, 1699 – AD November 1, 1770) – Jesus is called “Angel”.

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Patrick Fairbairn (AD 28 January 1805 – AD 6 August 1874) – Jesus is “Michael”.

William Baxter Godbey (AD June 3, 1833 - AD September 12, 1920) cites Dr. Clarke that Jesus is “Michael”.

Matthew Pool[e] – (AD 1624 – AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) – Jesus is “Michael” and cites others Luther, Hengstenberg, etc.

Thomas Coke (AD 9 September 1747 – AD 2 May 1814) – Jesus is “Michael”.

John Guyse (AD 1680 - AD 1761) – Jesus is “Michael”, and called “Angel”, etc

Elhanan Winchester (AD 1751 in Brookline, Massachusetts – AD April 18, 1797) – Jesus is “Michael”.

George Sale (AD 1697, Canterbury, Kent, England – AD 1736, London, England) ; George Psalmanazar (AD 1679? - AD 1763),; Archibald Bower (AD 17 January 1686 – AD 3 September 1766) ; George D. Shelvocke (baptised AD 1 April 1675 - AD 30 November 1742) ; John Campbell (AD 1708 - AD 1775); John Swinton (AD 1703 - AD 1777) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Church of England Magazine. Under the superintendence of the clergymen of the United Church of England and Ireland. Vol. IV. No. 85; January 6, 1838. By James Burns. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert Hawker (AD 1753 – AD 1827) – Jesus is “Michael” and “Archangel”.

Samuel Horsley (AD 15 September 1733 – AD 4 October 1806) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The London Encyclopedia, or Universal Dictionary … 1839. – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible; Volume 4; M-P, Revised, Full-Color Edition; - cites that many Protestants, Hengstenberg, etc that Jesus is “Michael”.

Zondervan NIV Study Bible (Fully Revised): Wide Margin Loose-Leaf Edition; copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. – Jesus is the “angel of the Lord”, etc.

Hermann Witsius (Herman Wits or in Latin Hermannus Witsius) (AD 12 February 1636 – AD 22 October 1708) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Reinerus Vogelsangius (AD 1610 - AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Johannes Cloppenburg (AD 1592 - AD 1652) - Jesus is Michael the “Angel of the Lord”.

Ralph Griffiths (AD c.1720 – AD September 28, 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Campegius Vitringa Sr., or Kempe Vitringa[1] (born at Leeuwarden, May 16, 1659; died at Franeker, March 31, 1722) – Jesus is “Michael” the “Archangel”.

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Wigand (ca. AD 1523 - AD 21 October 1587) – Jesus is “Michael”.

David Chytraeus or Chyträus (26 February 1530, Ingelfingen – 25 June 1600, Rostock) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Giovanni Diodati or Deodati (AD 6 June 1576 – AD 3 October 1649) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Andrew Willet (AD 1562 – AD 4 December 1621) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Miller (AD February 15, 1782 – AD December 20, 1849) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl L. Beckwith, - Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Dr. Frances N. Lee (AD 1934 - AD Friday 23rd December, 2011) - - Jesus is “Michael”.

David Harold Chilton (AD 1951 – AD 1997) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Milton Spenser Terry (AD 1840 - AD 1914) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Whitefield - December 27 [O.S. December 16] 1714 – September 30, 1770) speaks by symbol, Jesus is our “Michael”.

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) citing John Pye-Smith, Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

The Rev Dr John Pye-Smith FRS, FGS (AD 25 May 1774 - AD 5 February 1851) - Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

Christmas Evans (AD 25 December 1766 – AD 19 July 1838) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine
The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine for 1825, Volume II; London; published by B. J. Holdsworth, 18, St. Paul's Churchyard. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther (AD October 25, 1811 – AD May 7, 1887) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Charles Spurgeon (AD 9 June 1834 – AD 31 January 1892) Jesus is the “True Michael”.

Matthew Henry (AD 18 October 1662 – AD 22 June 1714) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Adams (AD 1583 – AD 1653) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Heinrich [Henry] Bullinger (AD 18 July 1504 – AD 17 September 1575) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Isaac Watts (AD 17 July 1674 – AD 25 November 1748) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Kinkade (AD 22nd Sept. 1783 - AD 20th Sept. 1832) [became Arian later; Heresy] - Jesus is “Michael”.

Jonathan Edwards (AD October 5, 1703 – AD March 22, 1758) - Jesus is “Michael”.

1560/1599 Geneva Study Bible- Jesus is “Michael”.

John [Jean] Calvin (born Jehan Cauvin: AD 10 July 1509 – AD 27 May 1564) - Jesus is “Michael” and does not disagree with others who see the same.

Francois Du Jon aka Franciscus Junius (born François du Jon, AD 1 May 1545 – AD 13 October 1602) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Wesley (AD 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – AD 2 March 1791) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Brown of Haddington (AD 1722 – AD 19 June 1787) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Wood (AD 1751 – AD 1840) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg (AD October 20, 1802, Fröndenberg – AD May 28, 1869, Berlin- Jesus is “Michael”.

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views” – cites John A. Lees, and Hengstenberg, Jesus is “Michael”.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees. - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Bunyan (AD 28 November 1628 – AD 31 August 1688) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Henry Ainsworth (AD 1571 – AD 1622) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Watson (c. AD 1620 – AD 1686) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Glasgow D.D. (AD 27 May 1805 – AD 1890 ) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Hastings (AD 1852 – AD 1922) and George Cunninghame Monteath Douglas (AD 1826 – AD 1904- Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Hobbes Scott (17 April 1783 – 1 January 1860) - Jesus may indeed be “Michael” as “many” others say.

Hezekiah Holland (born ca. AD 1617, living AD 1660) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Balderston Kidd (Cottingham, near Hull, AD 28 July 1794 – AD 1852) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Durham (AD 1622 – AD 1658) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Bryce Johnston (AD 1747 - AD 1805) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Vine's Expository Dictionary, by William Edwy Vine Section: "archangel” – the “archangels” “voice” is the “voice” of Jesus.

Thomas Haweis (AD 1 January 1734 - AD February 11, 1820) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929; Editor, Edwin Lewis (AD 1881 – AD 1959) was an American Methodist theologian primarily associated with Drew University in New Jersey. Others involved - Frederick Carl Eiselen; David G. Downey. - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann [John] Peter Lange (AD 10 April 1802 in Sonneborn (now a part of Wuppertal) – AD 9 July 1884), and Elijah Richard Craven (AD Mar. 28 1824, in Washington D.C. - AD Jan. 5 1908, in Philadelphia, Pa) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Robinson (AD 1813/14 - AD 1890) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Friedrich Haug ((AD * 1680, AD † 18. May 1753) and The Berlenburger Bibel [aka 'Berleb. Bible', 'Berleburger Bibel', etc.] is in the years AD 1726 - AD 1742) - Jesus is “Michael”.

 

[Adventageous]

Christ exclaimed “It is finished” when He died for our sins, but it is not finished in Seventh-day Adventism! EGW wrote in “The Faith I Live By” p. 211,

“At the time appointed for the judgment – the close of the 2300 days, in 1844began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins…both the living and the dead are to be judged “out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”.(Rev. 20:12″.

There are several phases of the atonement, according to the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13). See also differing atonements in Lev. 4, vs Lev 16, 23.



What was "finished" at Calvary was the Courtyard "daily" service, not the entire plan of Redemption, which is several phases of Ministry. Jesus wrought out the perfect character, so that we might be justified, sanctified and glorified in the same. His life is the Cornerstone that was laid of the True Temple, which was just Begun in the laying of it at Calvary. So the Cornerstone was laid, put into place, and "finished", but that was just the beginning of the greater work he had yet to do in Heaven for us.

At Calvary, Jesus was the "Lamb of God" (Sacrifice), and "LORD's Goat". Jesus was given a "work" to do on earth to finish (John 4:34), and yet there is another "work" that Jesus had to do in Heaven (Romans 9:28), in the Holy (at first), and then Most Holy (now), as High Priest, which He did not become until Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4,18-19,33; Psalms 133:1-3; Hebrews 7:26; Revelation 5:6, etc).

The first phase, Jesus "bought" us (Leviticus 25:51; 1 Peter 1:18-19)

The latter phase, Jesus "brought" us to perfection of character, being both "author" and "finisher" of our faith (Leviticus 25:55; 1 Peter 3:18), which is why we see Jesus ministering in those two Heavenly places. Another "It is done (finished)" is coming (Revelation 16:17; 21:6).

Those who say Jesus finished everything at Calvary have no idea what they are talking about. Pentecost wasn't even until 50 days after Jesus own resurrection.

 

[Adventageous]

Right, not hearing from you @Adventageous, understandably, things can become a bit hot, sometimes.
Shalom
J.

*snorts*, What an "ass" (Ex. 23:4-5). I went to bed, it was late in American Samoa, like 3 AM. You can keep your "shalom", I have a better one - Jesus Christ (Luk. 2:14; John 14:27; Col. 1:20; 2 Thes. 3:16).

Psa_120:7 I am for peace: but when I speak, they are for war.

 

[Adventageous]

Nope, I don't follow the uninspired teaching of EGW, which you boldly quote.
No offense.

I didn't ask you to. No offense.

 

[Adventageous]

I am just getting in on the tail end of this but as we know, angels are not to be worshiped.How then do we explain this?

"13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so"

When did an angel, other than this one, tell someone to take off their shoes? I only remember the Lord saying that.

That's because in Joshua 5, that 'angel' (messenger) was the Son of God. Many simply deny that Jesus is called an 'angel' (Malachi 3;1, etc) in scripture, but they have the problem, not those who accept what scripture plainly says.

There are uncreated and eternal 'angels' (messengers for the Father), such as the Son (Rev. 10:1) and Holy Ghost/Spirit (Rev. 18:1), that are in fact Deity.

There are created beings which are 'angels' (messengers for Godhead and heavenly council) and they can be heavenly (like Gabriel and 'Herald') or earthly (like John the Baptist, Malachi 3:1, or Paul, Galatians 4:14, or Philip, Acts 6:15; or David , 1 Samuel 29:9, etc).

 

[Adventageous]

Pity you came to the tail end of this discussion, talking about EGW and her uninspired teachings, but please, go through the posts, see if you agree, or disagree.

J.

Even your statement on the face of it is incorrect. All writings are inspired, one way or the other, of God, or of the Devil. There is no neutral, or non-inspired writings. You just pile up one error after another there don't cha'? Ever going to correct any of those things?

 

[Adventageous]

I have found some solid doctrines and answers on GotQuestions, so I will politely disagree with you here, I also like Gill, Jamie Fausett, Vincent and Robertson, of the which you disagree, but then I disagree with your commentary, EGW.

No offense.

Seems like you are the one who uses "commentaries". No offense.

 

[Adventageous]

That was no Angel.

Depends on what you mean.

If you mean a heavenly created being like Gabriel, then no, it was no 'angel' (messenger).

If you mean a heavenly uncreated and eternal being like the Son of the Father, then you are mistaken, for it was the 'Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father)', being the person of the Son.

Your issue is in the incorrect definition you carry in regards the word "angel", which simply denotes any messenger. The nature of the messenger is never inherently defined in the word itself, whether in English, Hebrew or koine Greek.

For instance:

Nave's Topical Biblical Concordance [shortened in quotation]:

Section “Angel (holy trinity)”​

​

"Angel (holy trinity)​

​

ONE OF THE HOLY TRINITY​

​

Called ANGEL OF GOD​

​

Exodus 14:19 ; Judges 13:6 ; 1 Samuel 29:9 ; 2 Samuel 14:17,20 ; 19:27 ; Acts 27:23 ; Galatians 4:14​

​

Called ANGEL OF THE LORD​

​

Genesis 16:7,9, 22:11 ; Exodus 3:2 ; Numbers 22:23,25,27,32,5 ; Judges 2:1, 6:11,12 ,21,22, 13:3,6,9,13-21 ; 2 Samuel 24:16 ; 1 Kings 19:7 ; 2 Kings 1:3,15, 19:35 ; 1 Chronicles 21:15,18 ; Psalms 34:7, 35:5,6 ; Zechariah 1:11,12, 3:5, 12:8​

​

Called ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE​

​

Isaiah 63:9" - Angel (holy trinity) - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Angel (holy trinity) - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online​

​

Section “JESUS THE CHRIST”​

​

"MISCELLANEOUS FACTS CONCERNING​

​

Was with the Israelites in the wilderness​

​

1 Corinthians 10:4,9 ; Hebrews 11:26 ; Jude 1:5" - Jesus, the christ - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Jesus, the christ - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online​

​

Section “JESUS THE CHRIST - NAMES, APPELLATIONS, AND TITLES OF”​

​

"NAMES, APPELLATIONS, AND TITLES OF​

​

Angel​

​

Genesis 48:16 ; Exodus 23:20,21​

​

Angel of his presence​

​

Isaiah 63:9​

​

Captain of the Lords host (army)​

​

Joshua 5:14​

​

Messenger of the covenant​

​

Malachi 3:1​

​

Prince​

​

Acts 5:31​

​

Prince of Life​

​

Acts 3:15​

​

Prince of Peace​

​

Isaiah 9:6​

​

Prince of the kings of the earth​

​

Revelation 1:5" - Jesus continued - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Jesus continued - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online​

-------

Another:

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) was an English Independent minister.

A Theological Dictionary, containing Definitions of all religious terms; a comprehensive view of every article in the system of Divinity, an impartial account of all the principle denominations which have subsisted in the religious world from the birth of Christ to the present day; together with an accurate statement of the most remarkable transactions and events recorded in Ecclesiastical history. By the Rev. Charles Buck. 1830. - A Theological Dictionary

"... [Page 17] ANGEL, a spiritual intelligent substance, the first in rank and dignity among created beings. The word angel (ἄγγελος) is Greek, and signifies a messenger. The Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ signifies the same. Angels, therefore, in the proper signification of the word, do not import the nature of any being, but only the office to which they are appointed, especially by way of message or intercourse between God and his creatures. Hence the word is used differently in various parts of the Scripture, and signifies, 1. Human messengers, or agents of others. 2. Sam. II. 5. "David sent messengers (Heb. angels) to Jabesh Gilead." Prov. XIII. 17. Mark I. 2. James II. 25. - 2.Officers of the churches, whether prophets or ordinary ministers, Hag. I .13. Rev. I. 20 - 3. Jesus Christ, Mal. III. 1. Is. LXIII. 9. ..." [Page 17] - A A Theological Dictionary​

​

"... [Page 23] ARCHANGEL, ... others, not without reason, reckon it a title only applicable to our Saviour. Compare Jude IX. with Dan. XII . 1. 1 Thess. IV. 16. ..." [Page 23] - A Theological Dictionary​

But do those who read care? no, they have their a priori to defend, their 'self'-correctness to defend, their self-infallibility to defend.

 

[Adventageous]

That was no Angel.

Further more,

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803)

A New Concordance to the Holy Scriptures. Being the Most Comprehensive and Concise of any before published. in which not only any word or passage of Scripture may be easily found, but the signification also is given of all proper names mentioned in the sacred Writings. By the Rev. John Butterworth, minister of the Gospel. A New Edition with Considerable improvements, by Adam Clarke, LL.D. London. 1812

"... [Page 34] ANGEL, s. A messenger, or one sent of God; and is applied, [1] To those noble, intellectual and spiritual beings, whom God makes use of as his ministers, to execute the orders of Providence, Heb. 1. 7, 14. Psal. 104. 4. [2] To Christ, who is the messenger of the covenant, and brought the glad tidings of salvation to men, Zech. 1. 12. Mal. 3. 1. Rev. 10. 1. ..." [Page 34] - A new concordance to the Holy Scriptures : Butterworth, John, 1727-1803. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

"... [Page 40] ARACHANGEL, s. A prince of angels, or the chief angel. 1. Thess. 4. 16. Jude 9. ..." [Page 40] - A new concordance to the Holy Scriptures : Butterworth, John, 1727-1803. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

"... [Page 401] MESSENGER, s. is applied, [1] To Jesus Christ, who published the tidings of salvation, Mal. 3. 1. ..." [Page 401] - A new concordance to the Holy Scriptures : Butterworth, John, 1727-1803. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

"... [Page 402] MICHAEL, Who is like God? One of the names of Christ Jesus, Dan.: 10. 21. Jude 9. Rev. 12. 7. ..." [Page 402] - A new concordance to the Holy Scriptures : Butterworth, John, 1727-1803. [from old catalog] : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

-------

Alexander Cruden (AD May 31, 1699 – AD November 1, 1770); Latin, Greek and Biblical scholar

Cruden's Complete Concordance to The Old and New Testaments, By Alexander Cruden, M.A.; Morgan and Scott's Popular Edition of Cruden's Concordance; 1888.

"... [Page 12] ANGEL Signifies, A messenger, or bringer of tidings, and is applied [1] To those intellectual ... beings., whom God makes use of as his ministers to execute the orders of providence, Rev. 22. 8. [2] To Christ, who is the Mediator and Head of the church, Zech. 1. 12. Rev. 10. 1. ..." [Page 12] - Cruden's complete concordance to the Old and New Testaments : Cruden, Alexander, 1701-1770 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

"... [Page 383] MESSENGER Signifies, One who carries message between party and party, Gen. 32. 3. | 50. 16. It is applied [1] To Christ Jesus, called the Messenger of the Covenant, Mal. 3. 1. Who, though he be one with the Father, yet humbled himself for our sakes, to be as a messenger from his Father, to declare his will to us, to confirm the covenant of grace by his death, to reveal this salvation, with the promise of the Holy Spirit to work true faith and repentance in our hearts. ..." [Page 383] - Cruden's complete concordance to the Old and New Testaments : Cruden, Alexander, 1701-1770 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

-------

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) was an English translator and Neoplatonist, the first to translate into English the complete works of Aristotle and of Plato, as well as the Orphic fragments.

A Concordance to the Holy Scriptures of The Old and New Testament: Also, The different Significations of many important Words, by which their Meaning is opened; and often seeming Contradictions reconciled. Likewise, a short Account of several Jewish Customs and Ceremonies, by which many Parts of Scripture are illustrated. To which is added, An Explication of the most material Names, especially of Persons, in the Old and New Testament; as also the Titles and Appellations given to Christ and his Church. By Thomas Taylor. The Third Edition. Printed For J. Mawman, (Successor to Mr. Dilly) in the Poultry, London: And by and for T. Wilson and R. Spence, in High-Ousegate, York. Anno 1801. - A Concordance to the Holy Scriptures ... By Thomas Taylor. The third edition

"... [Page 22] ANGEL Signifies A messenger or bringer of tidings, and is applied ... [2] To Christ, who is the mediator and head of the church, Zech. 1. 12. Rev. 10. 1. ..." [Page 22]​

​

"... [Page 24] APOSTLE signifies, A messenger sent upon any special errand, Rom. 16. 7. 2 Cor. 8. 23. It is applied [1] To Christ Jesus ..." [Page 24]​

​

"... [Page 61] CAPTAIN is a name applied ... [Page 61-62] ...To Christ Jesus who is called the captain of salvation, Heb. 2. 10. ..." [Pages 61-62]​

​

"... [Page 220] MESSENGER signifies, One who carries messages between party and party, Gen. 32. 3.; 50. 16. It is applied [1] To Christ Jesus, Mal. 3. 1. ..." [Page 220]​

​

"... [Page 265] PRINCE. This name is given, [1] To God, who is the supreme ruler and governor, Dan. 8. 11. [2] To Christ, who is called the Prince of Peace. Isa. 9. 6. ... He is called the prince of Life, Acts 3. 15. He is also called, the prince of the kings of the earth, Rev. 1. 5. He, as king, rules over all, even his greatest and most powerful enemies. [3] To the devil, John 12. 31. Mat. 4. 9. ..." [Page 265]​

​

"... [Page 405] Titles given to Jesus Christ. …​

​

Angel. Isa. 63.9. Mal. 3. 1. …​

​

Apostle, Heb. 3. 1. …​

​

Captain, Josh. 5. 14. Heb. 2. 10. ... [Page 405-406] …​

​

Messenger, Mal. 2. 7.; 3. 1. ...​

​

Michael, Dan. 12. 1. Rev. 12. 7. ...​

​

Prince, Acts 3. 15.; 5. 31. ..." [Pages 405-406]​

 

[RLT63]

Depends on what you mean.

If you mean a heavenly created being like Gabriel, then no, it was no 'angel' (messenger).

If you mean a heavenly uncreated and eternal being like the Son of the Father, then you are mistaken, for it was the 'Angel (Messenger) of the LORD (Father)', being the person of the Son.

Your issue is in the incorrect definition you carry in regards the word "angel", which simply denotes any messenger. The nature of the messenger is never inherently defined in the word itself, whether in English, Hebrew or koine Greek.

For instance:

Nave's Topical Biblical Concordance [shortened in quotation]:

Section “Angel (holy trinity)”

"Angel (holy trinity)

ONE OF THE HOLY TRINITY

Called ANGEL OF GOD

Exodus 14:19 ; Judges 13:6 ; 1 Samuel 29:9 ; 2 Samuel 14:17,20 ; 19:27 ; Acts 27:23 ; Galatians 4:14

Called ANGEL OF THE LORD

Genesis 16:7,9, 22:11 ; Exodus 3:2 ; Numbers 22:23,25,27,32,5 ; Judges 2:1, 6:11,12 ,21,22, 13:3,6,9,13-21 ; 2 Samuel 24:16 ; 1 Kings 19:7 ; 2 Kings 1:3,15, 19:35 ; 1 Chronicles 21:15,18 ; Psalms 34:7, 35:5,6 ; Zechariah 1:11,12, 3:5, 12:8

Called ANGEL OF HIS PRESENCE

Isaiah 63:9" - Angel (holy trinity) - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Angel (holy trinity) - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online

Section “JESUS THE CHRIST”

"MISCELLANEOUS FACTS CONCERNING

Was with the Israelites in the wilderness

1 Corinthians 10:4,9 ; Hebrews 11:26 ; Jude 1:5" - Jesus, the christ - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Jesus, the christ - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online

Section “JESUS THE CHRIST - NAMES, APPELLATIONS, AND TITLES OF”

"NAMES, APPELLATIONS, AND TITLES OF

Angel

Genesis 48:16 ; Exodus 23:20,21

Angel of his presence

Isaiah 63:9

Captain of the Lords host (army)

Joshua 5:14

Messenger of the covenant

Malachi 3:1

Prince

Acts 5:31

Prince of Life

Acts 3:15

Prince of Peace

Isaiah 9:6

Prince of the kings of the earth

Revelation 1:5" - Jesus continued - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online - Jesus continued - Nave's Topical Bible Concordance Online

-------

Another:

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) was an English Independent minister.

A Theological Dictionary, containing Definitions of all religious terms; a comprehensive view of every article in the system of Divinity, an impartial account of all the principle denominations which have subsisted in the religious world from the birth of Christ to the present day; together with an accurate statement of the most remarkable transactions and events recorded in Ecclesiastical history. By the Rev. Charles Buck. 1830. - A Theological Dictionary

"... [Page 17] ANGEL, a spiritual intelligent substance, the first in rank and dignity among created beings. The word angel (ἄγγελος) is Greek, and signifies a messenger. The Hebrew word מַלְאָךְ signifies the same. Angels, therefore, in the proper signification of the word, do not import the nature of any being, but only the office to which they are appointed, especially by way of message or intercourse between God and his creatures. Hence the word is used differently in various parts of the Scripture, and signifies, 1. Human messengers, or agents of others. 2. Sam. II. 5. "David sent messengers (Heb. angels) to Jabesh Gilead." Prov. XIII. 17. Mark I. 2. James II. 25. - 2.Officers of the churches, whether prophets or ordinary ministers, Hag. I .13. Rev. I. 20 - 3. Jesus Christ, Mal. III. 1. Is. LXIII. 9. ..." [Page 17] - A A Theological Dictionary

"... [Page 23] ARCHANGEL, ... others, not without reason, reckon it a title only applicable to our Saviour. Compare Jude IX. with Dan. XII . 1. 1 Thess. IV. 16. ..." [Page 23] - A Theological Dictionary

But do those who read care? no, they have their a priori to defend, their 'self'-correctness to defend, their self-infallibility to defend.

The Angel of the Lord is a theophany, not an angel . So again I don’t disagree with you (except about Michael)