@Aunty Jane - A thread to discuss, with you specifically, a few things, if you will indulge a little time with me. Thank you.

[RLT63]

Read the following, and tell me again, if what that article says is truth or error:

View attachment 28788

QUESTION: WHO IS THE "SCAPEGOAT" OF LEVITICUS 16? IS IT JESUS OR SATAN OR SOMETHING ELSE?

Scapegoat:

Leviticus 16:8 - ”And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.”

Leviticus 16:10 - “But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.”

Leviticus 16:21 - “And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:”

Leviticus 16:26 - “And he that let go the goat for the scapegoat shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.”

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Who, or What, does the “scapegoat”, in Leviticus 16’s Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur); 10th day of the 7th Month (Ethanim (1 Kings 8:2)) ceremony, represent from the type to antitype, from natural to spiritual (1 Corinthians 15:46)? Some persons have said that the scapegoat is a symbol of Jesus Christ. Some have said the scapegoat represents the devil or satan, or some evil angel in general., and some have even gone so far as to say that only the Seventh-day Adventists teach that the scapegoat is a representation of satan, while some have said other things. What is the truth?

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The reason why some persons think Jesus is the antitypical scapegoat, is because of verses like Hebrews 9:28; 1 Peter 2:24, which say that Christ “bear the sins of many”, or “bare our sins in his own body on the tree”, but they do not understand those verses in their entirety:

Hebrews 9:28 - “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

1 Peter 2:24 - “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”

Christ Jesus bore the sins as the LORD’s goat did. However, if we consider what Leviticus 16:8,10,21,26 says about the scapegoat in that it was “presented alive before the LORD”, “to make an atonement with him”, and afterward it was to be “let go” “for a scapegoat into the wilderness” it cannot, and does not, apply to Jesus. Jesus died, as the LORD’s goat did. The LORD’s goat made atonement for all the people, as Jesus did. The LORD’s goat was never let go into the wilderness. The scapegoat is different in all of those aspects. Only one “lot”, one “goat”, was “for the LORD”, being representative of Jesus having taken upon Himself the sins of the world, as Hebrews 9:28; 1 Peter 2:24 share. Hebrews 9:28 reveals that Jesus does not eternally carry those sins from the time of Calvary (Passover). Jesus, later having become an High Priest (Hebrews 4:14; Psalms 133:1-3; Acts 2:1-4,16-18,33; Revelation 5:6), does something with those sins just before He comes the second time, for the text reads, “shall he [Jesus] appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Where did the sin go that Jesus bore? The scapegoat portion of the Day of Atonement ceremony answers that question. Once the sins are removed from the sanctuary (Heavenly; Hebrews 8:2; Revelation 15:5) by the High Priest, they are then all placed (confessed) upon it’s head, who is then sent away into the wilderness by a ‘fit’ (timely, on time) man.

Why the scapegoat’s head? The goat was always the “sin offering” (Leviticus 4:4, 9:15, 10:16, 16:9,15,27; Numbers 15:27, 28:22, 29:22,28,31,34,38; Ezekiel 43:25). The “head” of the scapegoat, is a reference to the leader (chief, ruler; Numbers 25:15; Judges 10:18, 11:8; Isaiah 7:8-9; Ephesians 1:22) of sin (Daniel 10:13,20; Matthew 9:34, 12:24; Mark 3:22; John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11; Romans 8:38; Ephesians 2:2, 3:10, 6:12; Colossians 1:16, 2:15; Jude 1:6), and of the sinful mindset (Isaiah 1:5; Jeremiah 9:8; Matthew 12:34; Luke 6:45(b,c)). Remember what God said He would do unto the “serpent”, the instigator and author of sin (John 8:44):

Genesis 3:15 - “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy [the serpent’s] head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”

Psalms 7:16 - “His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.”

Romans 16:20 - “And the God of peace shall bruise [completely crush] Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.”

This is how it is throughout the whole of scripture (KJB, 1 Kings 2:32-33,44; Esther 9:25; Job 4:8; Hosea 8:7; Joel 3:4,7; Obadiah 1:15; Proverbs 28:10; Ecclesiastes 10:8). Since Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world (Isaiah 53:3-12, 63:3; Galatians 1:4; Hebrews 1:3; 1 John 2:2), represented by the Crown of Thorns (Genesis 3:18; Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:2,5), He was “bruised [crushed]” (Isaiah 53:5) by them unto death. Yet, Jesus never sinned, neither is the author, originator, or instigator of sin. Satan is. Therefore, the serpent (Revelation 20:2) is to be held responsible for all the sin/sins that have ever existed, and it is this sin which will destroy him (Leviticus 16:21; Ezekiel 28:28; Genesis 3:15; Psalms 7:16; Romans 16:20).

The ceremony required “two” goats; not just one, and it required the casting of “lots” to decide between the ”two”, one of whom was “for the LORD”, and the other “for the scapegoat”. In scripture (KJB), whenever a lot is cast, it is always used to distinguish between two or more persons or things, never the same person or thing:

Leviticus 16:8,9,10;

Numbers 26:55,56, 33:54, 34:13, 36:2,3;

Deuteronomy 32:9;

Joshua 13:6, 14:2, 15:1, 16:1, 17:1,2,14,17, 18:6,8,10,11, 19:1,10,17,24,32,40,51, 21:4,5,6,8,10,20,40, 23:4;

Judges 1:3, 20:9;

1 Samuel 14:41;

1 Chronicles 6:54,61,63,65, 16:18, 24:5,7,31, 25:8,9, 26:13,14,16;

Esther 3:7, 9:24;

Nehemiah 10:34, 11:1;

Psalms 16:5, 22:18, 105:11, 125:3;

Proverbs 1:14, 16:33, 18:18;

Isaiah 17:14, 34:17, 57:6;

Jeremiah 13:25;

Ezekiel 24:6, 45:1, 47:22, 48:29;

Daniel 12:13;

Joel 3:3;

Obadiah 1:11;

Jonah 1:7;

Micah 2:5;

Nahum 3:10;

Luke 1:9;

Acts 1:26, 8:21, 13:19.

The Day of Atonement ceremony never can take place at Calvary (AD 31; Daniel 9:24-27; Ezra 6:14), for that was the time of Passover (14th day, 1st Month (Abib/Nisan), season of Spring), unto Pentecost; while the Day of Atonement (AD 1844; Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, 10:6, 14:6-12, &c) came much later (10th day, 7th Month (Ethanim), season of Fall).

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In Leviticus 16:10, the scapegoat was to be “alive” and let go “into the wilderness”, bearing the sins of all upon his head, which is symbolic of the devil (the leader of the rebellion against God), being led captive (Revelation 20:1-3; “fit man” (Leviticus 16:21; right on time), the “strong man”; Psalms 19:5; Proverbs 24:5; Luke 11:22), with the sins of all he has ever tempted to commit upon him (Genesis 3:15; Psalms 7:16; Romans 16:20), and held (by chains of circumstances, God’s divine providence; Psalms 73:6; Lamentations 3:7; Ezekiel 7:23; for devils easily break iron chains, Mark 5:3-4; Luke 8:29) upon the desolate earth, the “wilderness” a “land not inhabited”, “a dry land”, a “habitation of dragons” (Isaiah 34:14; Revelation 12:9, 20:2), “a parched ground”, and “thirsty land” (Isaiah 35:7; see also Psalms 68:6; Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33, where was once the "fruitful place”), for 1,000 years. While the saints of God are “caught up” “to meet the Lord (Jesus)” in “the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17), satan (one time “prince of the power of the air”; Ephesians 2:2) and his angels, are “bought low” (Isaiah 2:2, 25:5). Compare Zechariah 14 ; Psalms 37 also with Jeremiah 4:23-28, 25:15-38; Zephaniah 1:2-3,14-18; Isaiah 2:6-22, 11:14, 24:1-6,17-22, 34:1-17; Ezekiel 38:8.

Compare Isaiah 24:1-20 to Revelation 16:18-21, 19:11-21, ‘world destroyed’.
Compare Leviticus 16:10(a),20 to Isaiah 24:1; Revelation 20:1-2, “host of high ones ... on high”, “Devil and Satan”.
Compare Isaiah 24:21 to Revelation 19:18-19, “kings”.
Compare Leviticus 16:10(b),21-22 to Isaiah 24:22; Revelation 20:1-3, “wilderness”, “prisoners”, “pit”.
Compare Isaiah 24:22 to Revelation 20:2-3, “after many days”, “one thousand years”.
Compare Isaiah 24:18 to Revelation 20:9-10,11-15, “cometh up”.
Compare Isaiah 24:23 to Revelation 20:4, 21:2, “reign”, “Jerusalem” (above).
Compare Isaiah 24:23 to Revelation 21:23, “moon”, ”sun”.
Compare Isaiah 4:3 to Revelation 22:11,14, “Jerusalem”, “city” (above).

At the end of the antitypical day of Atonement, the sins must be cleansed from the Heavenly Sanctuary, and from the hearts of His people (already confessed and forsaken), and finally to be placed back upon the head (Leader and heart) of the instigator of all sin, Satan. Not to pay the penalty of the sins of the saints (Jesus already did that at Calvary, AD 31 Passover), but for his own sins, as Leviticus 16:10 says, ”to make an atonement with him (scapegoat)”.... (the rest in the image)

Azazel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Adventageous]

and teaches that Jesus entered a second phase of His redemptive work on October 22, 1844, as prophesied by Hiram Edson.

Hiram Edson "prophesied" nothing. He wrote a Bible study on the subject. That Jesus entered a second phase is taught in the OT sanctuary (Psalms 77:13) services, and seen in Hebrews and Revelation.



QUESTION: DID JESUS, IN HIS ASCENSION FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, GO TO THE HEAVENLY HOLY OR HEAVENLY MOST HOLY PLACE?

Heb 9:12 KJB or NKJV? Holy or Most Holy? Which is correct?

Heb 9:12 GNT TR - "... εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια ..."

Heb 9:12 KJB - "... entered in once into the holy place ..."

Heb 9:12 NKJV - "... entered the Most Holy Place ..."

Did Jesus, after ascending to the 3rd Heaven (2 Cor 12:2,4), from the mount of Olives (Luk 24:50-51; Acts 1:9-12), enter into the Heavenly Tabernacle (Heb 8:2,5), in the Holy place or into the Most Holy place thereof? Is the KJB right (in Heb 9:12) and the NKJV wrong, or vice-versa?

Several noted “scholars” (Malachi 2:12) have stated on record:

[The John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57] -

"... [George E. Canon reading a copy of a koine Greek New Testament, at Hebrews 9:12, in the presence of Walter Martin and others at a selective closed meeting of (so-called) 'scholars'] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too [to the present persons meeting], "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place in [AD] 1844, or did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues apart from the past quotation and questions asked then] The [koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."

Walter Martin, John Ankerberg, George E. Canon, and others agreed with the NKJV translation, and not the KJB translation, but the question is, “Are they right or wrong?”

Seventh-day Adventists, including O.R.L. Crosier [Day Star Extra, February 7th, 1846, you may read in full here - The Sanctuary ], and especially sister Ellen G. White, do/did not teach, and have never taught, that the events of Hebrews 9:12 happened in AD 1844. We/they teach that the event, described in Hebrews 9:12, took place in AD 31, at Christ's Ascension from the Mount of Olives, which parallels Psalms 24:1-10, 133:1-3; Revelation 5:5,6, etc. We/they do however teach, that the text of Daniel 7:13, and the events therein, took place in AD 1844, based upon the ending of the 2,300 prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-33,40, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:13-15; 10:1-11, etc. Walter Martin [and associates, including later accomplice John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911, page 421 -

"... Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed him as he ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” [Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.]

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,—to cleanse the sanctuary. ..." - The Great Controversy

The Desire of Ages, page 166 -

"... The sacrificial service that had pointed to Christ passed away; but the eyes of men were turned to the true sacrifice for the sins of the world. The earthly priesthood ceased; but we look to Jesus, the minister of the new covenant, and “to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” “The way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ... but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, ... by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 12:24; 9:8-12. ..." - The Desire of Ages

Exo 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

Exo 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].

[01.] The Latin [Jerome's Vulgate] reads, "in sancta” (the holy, or sanctuary),
[02.] The Byzantine Majority and Family 35 (Greek) reads, “τα αγια”,
[03.] The John Wycliffe (1394) reads “the hooli thingis”,
[04.] The William Tyndale (1531) reads, “the holy place”,
[05.] The Miles Coverdale (1535) reads, “the holy place”,
[06.] The Bible d’Olivetan (French) (1535) reads, “foys es sanctuarres”,
[07.] The Thomas Matthew’s (John Roger’s) (1537) reads, “the holye place”,
[08.] The Great Bible (1539) reads, “the holy place”,
[09.] The Martin Luther (German) Bibel (1545) reads, “das Heilige” (the holy place),
[10.] The Robertus Stephanus (Robert I Estienne) (1550) reads, “τα αγια”,
[11.] The Geneva Bible (1560) reads, “the holy place”,
[12.] The Bishop’s Bible (1568) reads, “the holy place”,
[13.] The Theodore Beza (1598) reads, “τα αγια”,
[14.] The Elzivir (1624) reads, “τα αγια”,
[15.] The Douay-Rheims (Jesuit) (1750) reads, “the Holies”,
[16.] The Noah Webster’s (1833) reads, “the holy place”,
[17.] The Robert Young’s Literal (1862) reads, “the holy places”,
[18.] The Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort’s (1881) reads, “τα αγια”
[19.] The Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener (1894) reads, “τα αγια”,
[20.] The UBS (United Bible Society) 5th edition reads, "τὰ ἅγια",
[21.] The Novum Testamentum Graece 28th edition [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] reads, "τὰ ἅγια”, without a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation from this reading in any known extant mss, etc.

Some sources taken from - Oldebible and Textus Receptus Bibles and Bible d'Olivétan (1535) : Pierre Robert Olivétan (1506-1538) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in koine Greek [or in any language] that reads “αγια αγιων” [the Most Holy Place, see Heb 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Heb 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, “τα αγια” [the sanctuary, holy places, in context the first or holy place].

A High Priest cannot simply enter into the Most Holy Place first, but must pass from the Outer Court through the first veil (or door) into the Holy Place to minister in ”the daily” ministration, or service, throughout the year (Heb 9:12; Rev 1:12-20, 4:1,5-6), and only in the yearly Day of Atonement service (Lev 16:2-34, 23:26-32) could the High Priest then pass through the second veil (or door) into the Most Holy Place (Dan 7:9,13,22; 8:13,14,26; Rev 3:7-8, 9:13-15, 14:6-12), where the Ark of the Covenant was (Rev 11:19, 15:5).

If Heb 9:12 were to read “Most Holy Place” (as the NKJV), then the Day of Atonement took place not in the fall, in the 10th day of the 7th month, Ethanim (1 Ki 8:2), but just after the feasts of Passover (14th), Unleavened Bread (15th–21st) and Firstfruits/Wavesheaf (16th), in the 1st (Abib/Nisan) month and just before the 3rd month (Pentecost). That is an impossibility.

Jesus Christ was not made an High Priest until Pentecost (Acts 1-2; Psa 133:1-3; Rev 5:6; Heb 7:26; Exo 29:5-7; Lev 8:12; etc), when the number (Acts 1:17) of Apostles came to be 12 again (Acts 1:10-26). ...

 

[Adventageous]

I have booked marked the links but I have to tell you, no where in my KJV do I find that Christ is Michael, will peruse the links later.

If I may ask a question, are you using commentaries, if so, which ones?

I do not need commentaries. I go by what the Bible (KJB) says in prayerful study.

As for Michael, Rev. 12 alone in its structural parallelism ought to tell you, but there are several places.

 

[Adventageous]

a recognized prophetess in their church was a teacher of aberrant doctrine, and their church has its roots in the failed prophecies of William Miller.

The first point (Ellen G White) is simply incorrect, and an a priori bias. Simply saying "aberrrant doctrine" without proof is simply prideful posturing, and may be safely ignored until evidence of the claim is brought for examination. The items they did raise, I already addressed in some detail, and can in much more detail.

The second has more validity, but is not entirely accurate. William Miller didn't prophesy anything. What he did do, was write out a Bible study on the prophecies of Daniel, along with many others, and taught it. A quite a bit of his material is correct, and there are some mistakes. Eventually the calculation was correct, but his understanding of the event was wrong, as foretold in Revelation 10, and typified in the earlier disciples who had part of the same prophecy, and misunderstood it, and had their own bitter experience, even though Jesus tried tell each what their mistake was.

 

[Adventageous]

I am not trying to expose anything, or you, just want to know the truth and the veracity of these two links.

GotQuestions is biased. I tried writing to them once. Never heard back.

Here is their about page:

"All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University, a Master’s degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary, and a Master of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary."​

All of those places have been compromised by the Jesuit order a long time ago. They teach Jesuit futurism, etc.

"... These seminaries and ministries have wholly abandoned the historical Protestant and biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the Antichrist papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal Antichrist power from being perceived by their students or viewers. They are accurately described as false prophets!

Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement. ..." -

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

 

[Johann]

I do not need commentaries. I go by what the Bible says in prayerful study.

As for Michael, Rev. 12 alone in its structural parallelism ought to tell you, but there are several places.

I was rather hoping you are not going to say that, not using commentaries.....yet using EGW "commentaries" Odd.

Michael and his angels ... the dragon ... and his angels. It was fitting that as the rebellion arose from unfaithful angels and their leader, so they should be overcome by faithful angels and their archangel, in heaven. On earth they are fittingly to be overcome, as represented by the beast and false prophet, by the Son of man and His human saints (Rev_19:14-21).

The conflict on earth, as in Dan_10:1-21, has its correspondent conflict of angels in heaven. Michael is peculiarly the prince, angel, of Israel. The conflict in heaven, though judicially decided already against Satan from the time of Christ’s ascension, receives its completion in the judgment to be executed by the angels who cast out Satan. From Christ’s ascension he has no standing-ground against the believing elect. Luk_10:18, "I beheld (in the earnest of the future fulfillment given in the demons’ subjection to the disciples) Satan as lightning fall from heaven." As Michael fought with Satan about the body of the mediator of the old covenant (Jud_1:9), so now the Mediator of the new covenant, by offering His sinless body in sacrifice, arms Michael with power to complete the victory. That Satan is not yet finally, but only judicially, cast out of heaven, appears from Eph_6:12, "spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places." This is the primary church-historical sense. Through Israel’s unbelief, in the ulterior sense, Satan the accuser has ground against the elect nation. At the eve of her restoration, his standing-ground in heaven against her shall be taken from him, ’the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem’ rebuking and casting him from heaven forever by Michael. In Zec_3:1-9, similarly, Joshua the high priest represents Israel, and Satan, standing at God’s right hand as adversary, resists Israel’s justification. Not until then fully (Rev_12:10, "Now," etc.) shall ALL things be reconciled unto Christ IN HEAVEN (Col_1:20), and there shall be peace in heaven (Luk_19:38).
JFB

Michael] Dan_10:13; Dan_10:21; Dan_12:1. The two latter passages seem to tell us that he is the special patron or guardian angel of the people of Israel: and it may be in that character that he is introduced here.

I agree with this.

The Book of Daniel repeats much about angels which is found in earlier parts of the Bible. It tells of innumerable attendants around the Divine throne (7:10), and reports that an angel saved the three men in the furnace (3:25, 28) and Daniel from the lions (6:23). It sometimes calls an angel "man"; one angel is described as a man clad in linen (10:5; 12:7; cf. above on Ezekiel). But Daniel has strong affinities with the extra-biblical apocalypses, and so presents many new features in regard to angels. The revelations received by Daniel are either symbolic visions, which an angel interprets (ch. 7, 8), or they are revealed in their entirety by an angel (ch. 10–12). Zechariah, too, had visions which an angel explained. But he also delivered prophecies received directly from God; such a thing never occurs in Daniel. In the latter book, too, angels do not merely carry out orders, but have some powers of initiative: "The matter has been decreed by the ever-wakeful ones, the sentence is by the word of the holy ones" (4:14). Moreover, the angels now have proper names: Gabriel (8:16; 9:21) and Michael (10:13; 12:1).

This is the only biblical book in which angels have distinct personalities. Finally, the idea that each nation has an angelic patron, whose actions and destinies are bound up with those of his nation, is encountered for the first time. Mention is made of the patrons of Persia and Greece (10:13, 20); and Michael is the champion of Israel (12:1; on this concept cf. Isa. 24:2).

Angels & Angelology

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

και εγενετο πολεμος εν τω ουρανω ο μιχαηλ και οι αγγελοι αυτου επολεμησαν κατα του δρακοντος και ο δρακων επολεμησεν και οι αγγελοι αυτου

Notice the Definite Article...THE Michael...not Jesus

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I don't see, in this chapter, how you can connect "Michael and his angels" with Christ Jesus.

No offense, of course.

 

[Johann]

The first point (Ellen G White) is simply incorrect, and an a priori bias. Simply saying "aberrrant doctrine" without proof is simply prideful posturing, and may be safely ignored until evidence of the claim is brought for examination. The items they did raise, I already addressed in some detail, and can in much more detail.

The second has more validity, but is not entirely accurate. William Miller didn't prophesy anything. What he did do, was write out a Bible study on the prophecies of Daniel, along with many others, and taught it. A quite a bit of his material is correct, and there are some mistakes. Eventually the calculation was correct, but his understanding of the event was wrong, as foretold in Revelation 10, and typified in the earlier disciples who had part of the same prophecy, and misunderstood it, and had their own bitter experience, even though Jesus tried tell each what their mistake was.

This sounds far fetched, Jesus tried to tell each [EGW and William Miller] what their mistake was?
Would you say her writings was/is inspired brother?

 

[Johann]

GotQuestions is biased. I tried writing to them once. Never heard back.

Here is their about page:

"All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University, a Master’s degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary, and a Master of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary."​

All of those places have been compromised by the Jesuit order a long time ago. They teach Jesuit futurism, etc.

"... These seminaries and ministries have wholly abandoned the historical Protestant and biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the Antichrist papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal Antichrist power from being perceived by their students or viewers. They are accurately described as false prophets!​

​

Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement. ..." -​

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

I get that, but what about the article they wrote?

 

[RLT63]

I get that, but what about the article they wrote?

I’ve found Got Questions to be very helpful and accurate on most issues.

 

[Johann]

This sounds far fetched, Jesus tried to tell each [EGW and William Miller] what their mistake was?
Would you say her writings was/is inspired brother?

I am aware you dislike video clips, but give this a listen, and come back to me.

 

[Johann]

I’ve found Got Questions to be very helpful and accurate on most issues.

So do I, thank you brother.

 

[Johann]

I am aware you dislike video clips, but give this a listen, and come back to me.

And having said this, what is the Bible saying about a false prophet/-etess?

 

[Johann]

And having said this, what is the Bible saying about a false prophet/-etess?

Doctrine on Christ

Seventh-day Adventists, in the early days, denied the Trinity, but now they accept it. However, they have “leftovers” from this heresy. Ellen G. White wrote in Patriarchs and Prophets, page 761, “…He (Jesus) was revealed to them as the Angel of Jehovah, the Captain of the Lord’s Host, Michael the Archangel”.

She is wrong here.....Jesus is not Michael, the guardian of YisraEl.

Adventists, you can’t have it both ways! Either Jesus Christ is God, or He is some kind of an Angel. You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth to try to cover up embarrassing statements by Ellen G. White. They won’t tell you she was wrong – when its “her or the Bible”, she always wins!

Not me saying this.....

What the SDA Cult Won’t Tell You - SafeGuardYourSoul

Seventh-day Adventists won’t tell you they are behind the “Revelation Seminars” they sponsor. They act all ”interdenominational” if questioned. Watch out for

safeguardyoursoul.com

Christ exclaimed “It is finished” when He died for our sins, but it is not finished in Seventh-day Adventism! EGW wrote in “The Faith I Live By” p. 211,

“At the time appointed for the judgment – the close of the 2300 days, in 1844began the work of investigation and blotting out of sins…both the living and the dead are to be judged “out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”.(Rev. 20:12″.

People are never told at Seminars that if they become SDA’s and are baptized, a recording angel is watching their every move to determine their salvation eventually. EGW issues this warning in The Faith I Live By, page 210,

“Every man’s work passes in review before God…Opposite each name in the books of heaven is entered, with terrible exactness, every wrong word, every selfish act, every unfulfilled duty, and every secret sin, with every artful dissembling. Heaven-sent warnings or reproofs neglected, wasted moments, unimproved opportunities, the influence exerted for good or for evil, with its far-reaching results, all are chronicled by the recording angel.”

It’s not much fun being an Adventist and being watched constantly by that recording angel with his “terrible exactness”. Prepare to become very uptight.

Christians will say, “sure we slip sometimes into unintentional sin, but we have a mediator in Christ Jesus”. No, you don’t in Seventh-day Adventism. Be prepared for this SDA doctrine by Ellen G. White:

“…Those who are living on the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil….”. (The Great Controversy p. 425).

When did the priestly intercession of our Lord Christ Jesus ceased? It is still going on!

Obviously they have chosen EGW’s doctrine over that stated in the Bible in Hebrews 7:25,

“Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them”.

Where would we all be without Christ as our mediator, EVER making intercession for us?

Christ bore our own sins in his body on the tree according to the Bible. 1 Peter 2:24 says, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree…”. Become a SDA, and it will be Satan who will eventually bear your sins! Ellen G. White wrote,.......



“…so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin…so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God’s people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate…”.(The Great Controversy p. 485).

I strongly disagree with this.

You won’t hear this one at the Seminars! They keep their radical teachings for later.


....again, not me saying this...

Just one question
Do you consider the writings of EGW inspired?

 

[Johann]

Azazel - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Another good source, don't care what anyone says.

 

[Johann]

I was rather hoping you are not going to say that, not using commentaries.....yet using EGW "commentaries" Odd.

Michael and his angels ... the dragon ... and his angels. It was fitting that as the rebellion arose from unfaithful angels and their leader, so they should be overcome by faithful angels and their archangel, in heaven. On earth they are fittingly to be overcome, as represented by the beast and false prophet, by the Son of man and His human saints (Rev_19:14-21).

The conflict on earth, as in Dan_10:1-21, has its correspondent conflict of angels in heaven. Michael is peculiarly the prince, angel, of Israel. The conflict in heaven, though judicially decided already against Satan from the time of Christ’s ascension, receives its completion in the judgment to be executed by the angels who cast out Satan. From Christ’s ascension he has no standing-ground against the believing elect. Luk_10:18, "I beheld (in the earnest of the future fulfillment given in the demons’ subjection to the disciples) Satan as lightning fall from heaven." As Michael fought with Satan about the body of the mediator of the old covenant (Jud_1:9), so now the Mediator of the new covenant, by offering His sinless body in sacrifice, arms Michael with power to complete the victory. That Satan is not yet finally, but only judicially, cast out of heaven, appears from Eph_6:12, "spiritual wickedness in high (heavenly) places." This is the primary church-historical sense. Through Israel’s unbelief, in the ulterior sense, Satan the accuser has ground against the elect nation. At the eve of her restoration, his standing-ground in heaven against her shall be taken from him, ’the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem’ rebuking and casting him from heaven forever by Michael. In Zec_3:1-9, similarly, Joshua the high priest represents Israel, and Satan, standing at God’s right hand as adversary, resists Israel’s justification. Not until then fully (Rev_12:10, "Now," etc.) shall ALL things be reconciled unto Christ IN HEAVEN (Col_1:20), and there shall be peace in heaven (Luk_19:38).
JFB

Michael] Dan_10:13; Dan_10:21; Dan_12:1. The two latter passages seem to tell us that he is the special patron or guardian angel of the people of Israel: and it may be in that character that he is introduced here.

I agree with this.

The Book of Daniel repeats much about angels which is found in earlier parts of the Bible. It tells of innumerable attendants around the Divine throne (7:10), and reports that an angel saved the three men in the furnace (3:25, 28) and Daniel from the lions (6:23). It sometimes calls an angel "man"; one angel is described as a man clad in linen (10:5; 12:7; cf. above on Ezekiel). But Daniel has strong affinities with the extra-biblical apocalypses, and so presents many new features in regard to angels. The revelations received by Daniel are either symbolic visions, which an angel interprets (ch. 7, 8), or they are revealed in their entirety by an angel (ch. 10–12). Zechariah, too, had visions which an angel explained. But he also delivered prophecies received directly from God; such a thing never occurs in Daniel. In the latter book, too, angels do not merely carry out orders, but have some powers of initiative: "The matter has been decreed by the ever-wakeful ones, the sentence is by the word of the holy ones" (4:14). Moreover, the angels now have proper names: Gabriel (8:16; 9:21) and Michael (10:13; 12:1).

This is the only biblical book in which angels have distinct personalities. Finally, the idea that each nation has an angelic patron, whose actions and destinies are bound up with those of his nation, is encountered for the first time. Mention is made of the patrons of Persia and Greece (10:13, 20); and Michael is the champion of Israel (12:1; on this concept cf. Isa. 24:2).

Angels & Angelology

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

και εγενετο πολεμος εν τω ουρανω ο μιχαηλ και οι αγγελοι αυτου επολεμησαν κατα του δρακοντος και ο δρακων επολεμησεν και οι αγγελοι αυτου

Notice the Definite Article...THE Michael...not Jesus

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I don't see, in this chapter, how you can connect "Michael and his angels" with Christ Jesus.

No offense, of course.

Right, not hearing from you @Adventageous, understandably, things can become a bit hot, sometimes.
Shalom
J.

 

[Johann]

Hiram Edson "prophesied" nothing. He wrote a Bible study on the subject. That Jesus entered a second phase is taught in the OT sanctuary (Psalms 77:13) services, and seen in Hebrews and Revelation.

View attachment 28790

QUESTION: DID JESUS, IN HIS ASCENSION FROM THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, GO TO THE HEAVENLY HOLY OR HEAVENLY MOST HOLY PLACE?

Heb 9:12 KJB or NKJV? Holy or Most Holy? Which is correct?

Heb 9:12 GNT TR - "... εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια ..."

Heb 9:12 KJB - "... entered in once into the holy place ..."

Heb 9:12 NKJV - "... entered the Most Holy Place ..."

Did Jesus, after ascending to the 3rd Heaven (2 Cor 12:2,4), from the mount of Olives (Luk 24:50-51; Acts 1:9-12), enter into the Heavenly Tabernacle (Heb 8:2,5), in the Holy place or into the Most Holy place thereof? Is the KJB right (in Heb 9:12) and the NKJV wrong, or vice-versa?

Several noted “scholars” (Malachi 2:12) have stated on record:

[The John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57] -

"... [George E. Canon reading a copy of a koine Greek New Testament, at Hebrews 9:12, in the presence of Walter Martin and others at a selective closed meeting of (so-called) 'scholars'] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too [to the present persons meeting], "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place in [AD] 1844, or did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues apart from the past quotation and questions asked then] The [koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."

Walter Martin, John Ankerberg, George E. Canon, and others agreed with the NKJV translation, and not the KJB translation, but the question is, “Are they right or wrong?”

Seventh-day Adventists, including O.R.L. Crosier [Day Star Extra, February 7th, 1846, you may read in full here - The Sanctuary ], and especially sister Ellen G. White, do/did not teach, and have never taught, that the events of Hebrews 9:12 happened in AD 1844. We/they teach that the event, described in Hebrews 9:12, took place in AD 31, at Christ's Ascension from the Mount of Olives, which parallels Psalms 24:1-10, 133:1-3; Revelation 5:5,6, etc. We/they do however teach, that the text of Daniel 7:13, and the events therein, took place in AD 1844, based upon the ending of the 2,300 prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-33,40, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:13-15; 10:1-11, etc. Walter Martin [and associates, including later accomplice John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911, page 421 -

"... Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed him as he ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” [Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.]

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,—to cleanse the sanctuary. ..." - The Great Controversy

The Desire of Ages, page 166 -

"... The sacrificial service that had pointed to Christ passed away; but the eyes of men were turned to the true sacrifice for the sins of the world. The earthly priesthood ceased; but we look to Jesus, the minister of the new covenant, and “to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” “The way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ... but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, ... by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 12:24; 9:8-12. ..." - The Desire of Ages

Exo 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

Exo 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].

[01.] The Latin [Jerome's Vulgate] reads, "in sancta” (the holy, or sanctuary),
[02.] The Byzantine Majority and Family 35 (Greek) reads, “τα αγια”,
[03.] The John Wycliffe (1394) reads “the hooli thingis”,
[04.] The William Tyndale (1531) reads, “the holy place”,
[05.] The Miles Coverdale (1535) reads, “the holy place”,
[06.] The Bible d’Olivetan (French) (1535) reads, “foys es sanctuarres”,
[07.] The Thomas Matthew’s (John Roger’s) (1537) reads, “the holye place”,
[08.] The Great Bible (1539) reads, “the holy place”,
[09.] The Martin Luther (German) Bibel (1545) reads, “das Heilige” (the holy place),
[10.] The Robertus Stephanus (Robert I Estienne) (1550) reads, “τα αγια”,
[11.] The Geneva Bible (1560) reads, “the holy place”,
[12.] The Bishop’s Bible (1568) reads, “the holy place”,
[13.] The Theodore Beza (1598) reads, “τα αγια”,
[14.] The Elzivir (1624) reads, “τα αγια”,
[15.] The Douay-Rheims (Jesuit) (1750) reads, “the Holies”,
[16.] The Noah Webster’s (1833) reads, “the holy place”,
[17.] The Robert Young’s Literal (1862) reads, “the holy places”,
[18.] The Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort’s (1881) reads, “τα αγια”
[19.] The Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener (1894) reads, “τα αγια”,
[20.] The UBS (United Bible Society) 5th edition reads, "τὰ ἅγια",
[21.] The Novum Testamentum Graece 28th edition [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] reads, "τὰ ἅγια”, without a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation from this reading in any known extant mss, etc.

Some sources taken from - Oldebible and Textus Receptus Bibles and Bible d'Olivétan (1535) : Pierre Robert Olivétan (1506-1538) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in koine Greek [or in any language] that reads “αγια αγιων” [the Most Holy Place, see Heb 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Heb 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, “τα αγια” [the sanctuary, holy places, in context the first or holy place].

A High Priest cannot simply enter into the Most Holy Place first, but must pass from the Outer Court through the first veil (or door) into the Holy Place to minister in ”the daily” ministration, or service, throughout the year (Heb 9:12; Rev 1:12-20, 4:1,5-6), and only in the yearly Day of Atonement service (Lev 16:2-34, 23:26-32) could the High Priest then pass through the second veil (or door) into the Most Holy Place (Dan 7:9,13,22; 8:13,14,26; Rev 3:7-8, 9:13-15, 14:6-12), where the Ark of the Covenant was (Rev 11:19, 15:5).

If Heb 9:12 were to read “Most Holy Place” (as the NKJV), then the Day of Atonement took place not in the fall, in the 10th day of the 7th month, Ethanim (1 Ki 8:2), but just after the feasts of Passover (14th), Unleavened Bread (15th–21st) and Firstfruits/Wavesheaf (16th), in the 1st (Abib/Nisan) month and just before the 3rd month (Pentecost). That is an impossibility.

Jesus Christ was not made an High Priest until Pentecost (Acts 1-2; Psa 133:1-3; Rev 5:6; Heb 7:26; Exo 29:5-7; Lev 8:12; etc), when the number (Acts 1:17) of Apostles came to be 12 again (Acts 1:10-26). ...

Nope, I don't follow the uninspired teaching of EGW, which you boldly quote.
No offense.

 

[Cassandra]

I am just getting in on the tail end of this but as we know, angels are not to be worshiped.How then do we explain this?

"13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so"

When did an angel, other than this one, tell someone to take off their shoes? I only remember the Lord saying that.

 

[Johann]

I am just getting in on the tail end of this but as we know, angels are not to be worshiped.How then do we explain this?

"13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so"

When did an angel, other than this one, tell someone to take off their shoes? I only remember the Lord saying that.

Pity you came to the tail end of this discussion, talking about EGW and her uninspired teachings, but please, go through the posts, see if you agree, or disagree.

J.

 

[Johann]

GotQuestions is biased. I tried writing to them once. Never heard back.

Here is their about page:

"All of our answers are reviewed for biblical and theological accuracy by our staff. Our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann, is ultimately accountable for our content, and therefore maintains an active role in the review process. He possesses a Bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary University, a Master’s degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary, and a Master of Theology degree from Dallas Theological Seminary."​

All of those places have been compromised by the Jesuit order a long time ago. They teach Jesuit futurism, etc.

"... These seminaries and ministries have wholly abandoned the historical Protestant and biblical teaching that the Roman Catholic Church is the apostate church, the harlot of Revelation, with the Antichrist papacy at its head, and instead serve to screen the papal Antichrist power from being perceived by their students or viewers. They are accurately described as false prophets!​

​

Dallas Theological Seminary (a nondenominational Protestant school): Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871-1952), a student of Cyrus Scofield, founded Evangelical Theological College (now DTS) in 1924, which is likely the most influential seminary in the United States today. Futurism, and the secret rapture (which they call the blessed hope), are covered in articles 18-20 of the DTS Full Doctrinal Statement. ..." -​

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

I have found some solid doctrines and answers on GotQuestions, so I will politely disagree with you here, I also like Gill, Jamie Fausett, Vincent and Robertson, of the which you disagree, but then I disagree with your commentary, EGW.

No offense.

 

[RLT63]

I am just getting in on the tail end of this but as we know, angels are not to be worshiped.How then do we explain this?

"13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so"

When did an angel, other than this one, tell someone to take off their shoes? I only remember the Lord saying that.

That was no Angel.