BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

[BreadOfLife]

Coming out of the closet are you?

Nah, not you, not the guy who's 8,000 posts have been centered on another. Oh, oh, I get it, not "Jesus", but "Christ" (on earth...after Jesus' ascension). That's right, you have made that perfectly clear...that Peter and the popes are "Christ on earth." Which is rather weird thinking, to give Christ's body (the church) a human head (little "h") to focus on short of completely looking upward for redemption. And apparently you all have given that all a name: "Catholic" (above every name).

Great P.R.!

But you error. You kid yourself: Jesus, and Paul gave the first critiques of the churches, and many prophesied the folly of the so called canon which also are now scripture.

In addition, adding more to your shame, you now call what Christ and Paul called imperfect perfect...against them and the scriptures. Ouch!

Good luck with that.

What part of "My strength is made perfect in weakness", did you not understand?

What you call infallible and perfect, Christ and Paul called "weakness" - and it's all in your precious canon. You should be sooo proud!

Typical diversion, eh, Scotty?

You LOST the debate about the Early Church and their unanimous adherence to the Real Presence in the Eucharist – so you went after the Pope. What’s next – Mary? Statues? Repetitious Prayer?

I don’t mind debating ANY of these issues with you – but you have a complete inability to stay on point.

As for what Paul called “weakness” – it wasn’t the Authority of the Church. He was talking about God’s strength is made perfect his PAUL’S weaknesses. You just fell OFF of the balance beam during your Scriptural acrobatics . . .

 

[ScottA]

Typical diversion, eh, Scotty?

You LOST the debate about the Early Church and their unanimous adherence to the Real Presence in the Eucharist – so you went after the Pope. What’s next – Mary? Statues? Repetitious Prayer?

I don’t mind debating ANY of these issues with you – but you have a complete inability to stay on point.

As for what Paul called “weakness” – it wasn’t the Authority of the Church. He was talking about God’s strength is made perfect his PAUL’S weaknesses. You just fell OFF of the balance beam during your Scriptural acrobatics . . .

Those who's precedence you are following, which is Israel, said very much the same thing about their actions during and leading up to the first coming of Christ. And now, it is you who think you have won. It would be funny...but it's sad - you won't know just how wrong you are until you are in His presence.

For a little bible study, do a word study of "hypocrites" and see just how comparable the words from Jesus are to what your fellows have been doing all this time. But I know that you will not, so I have only said so, that anyone really wanting to know the truth can simply look it up. The comparison to the Catholic church is astounding.

Oh, and remember, "Catholic" is your word...otherwise, I would have never brought it up.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who's precedence you are following, which is Israel, said very much the same thing about their actions during and leading up to the first coming of Christ. And now, it is you who think you have won. It would be funny...but it's sad - you won't know just how wrong you are until you are in His presence.

For a little bible study, do a word such of "hypocrites" and see just how comparable the words from Jesus are to what your fellows have been doing all this time. But I know that you will not, so I have only said so, that anyone really wanting to know the truth can simply look it up. The comparison to the Catholic church is astounding.

Oh, and remember, "Catholic" is your word...otherwise, I would have never brought it up.

Sure, Scott - whatever makes you feel better about losing . . .

 

[ScottA]

Sure, Scott - whatever makes you feel better about losing . . .

This is an opportunity...so I will engage:

You are operating in the darkness of this present age, so I will explain...again, not for you, because you have made your decision, but for anyone who actually wants to know the truth:

What you have not considered...is that this is "the second day" before Christ "shall be perfected." Luke 13:32

The first day (or "today" that Jesus referred to in Luke 13:32) pertained to the House of Israel (the first fold brought by Christ, and the first who are last). The second day (or "tomorrow" that Jesus referred to) pertains to the second fold brought by Christ, the times of the gentiles, and the last who are first - first to receive the spirit of God, following Christ the firstfruits.

As such, this being the second day referred to by Christ before His perfection the third day, we are not in a day of perfection...but rather a time when His "strength is made perfect in weakness." It is this point that makes it relevant to this discussion, for some believe that by being guided by the Holy Spirit that the church has acted righteously down through the ages instead of in weakness, which is a violation of what the scriptures say of our time.

Both the first day and Israel, and the second day and the gentiles exist within the times of Christ's "casting out demons and performing cures." And likewise, each ends with the rejection of Christ...or during these times, as has been foretold: "the falling away" or "great apostasy." The first day pertains to the sons of the first Adam, of whom Christ was and is the Last, while the second day pertains to the sons of God and the life-giving Spirit, of whom Christ is the First:

As it is written: "The first shall be last, and the last first." It is in this small statement that most do not understand. It would be easier if those born of the first fold were of flesh, and those born under the second fold were only spirit. But both are first born of the flesh...which is the path to redemption. Either way, the pieces of the puzzle begin and end with Christ...because there is "only one begotten Son." In the Son then, are the first fold are "the dead in Christ" or Israel, and also "the living in Christ" or those grafted into Israel. So, then, by the curse of sin the man ("of sin") of flesh are the dead, and only those born [again] of the Spirit are alive...of which both gain their life through, or rather, in Christ: Israel through His death (thus "the dead in Christ"), and those grafted into Israel through His life which He attained by being born of the spirit of God (thus "the living in Christ").

During these time it is most important to understand that in natural death, as it is written, "the flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it."

As pertains to this discussion for these end times, the church was presented with a choice of "life and death" just as was given to Israel by Moses in the desert. This is what Jesus also presented His disciples and those of the church age, where following the flesh (death) was personified by Peter, in contrast to how Peter came to know who Christ was by the spirit of God. No, Jesus did not give them the same choice in the same way, or the church would have caught on before the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. But it is a mistake to think that those grafted into Israel would actually be treated better than Israel, and not be faced with the same choice of life and death within the church. True, choosing Christ is life, in or out of what is perceived as the structure and leadership of the church - but whether it is the leaders of Israel or the leaders of the church, neither has been given life without making a choice.

Which brings us to the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" before the return of Christ. It is time to "look up" (not to men), but to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh (not just the leaders)...for "our redemption draws near."

Hallelujah!

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is an opportunity...so I will engage:

You are operating in the darkness of this present age, so I will explain...again, not for you, because you have made your decision, but for anyone who actually wants to know the truth:

What you have not considered...is that this is "the second day" before Christ "shall be perfected." Luke 13:32

The first day (or "today" that Jesus referred to in Luke 13:32) pertained to the House of Israel (the first fold brought by Christ, and the first who are last). The second day (or "tomorrow" that Jesus referred to) pertains to the second fold brought by Christ, the times of the gentiles, and the last who are first - first to receive the spirit of God, following Christ the firstfruits.

As such, this being the second day referred to by Christ before His perfection the third day, we are not in a day of perfection...but rather a time when His "strength is made perfect in weakness." It is this point that makes it relevant to this discussion, for some believe that by being guided by the Holy Spirit that the church has acted righteously down through the ages instead of in weakness, which is a violation of what the scriptures say of our time.

Both the first day and Israel, and the second day and the gentiles exist within the times of Christ's "casting out demons and performing cures." And likewise, each ends with the rejection of Christ...or during these times, as has been foretold: "the falling away" or "great apostasy." The first day pertains to the sons of the first Adam, of whom Christ was and is the Last, while the second day pertains to the sons of God and the life-giving Spirit, of whom Christ is the First:

As it is written: "The first shall be last, and the last first." It is in this small statement that most do not understand. It would be easier if those born of the first fold were of flesh, and those born under the second fold were only spirit. But both are first born of the flesh...which is the path to redemption. Either way, the pieces of the puzzle begin and end with Christ...because there is "only one begotten Son." In the Son then, are the first fold are "the dead in Christ" or Israel, and also "the living in Christ" or those grafted into Israel. So, then, by the curse of sin the man ("of sin") of flesh are the dead, and only those born [again] of the Spirit are alive...of which both gain their life through, or rather, in Christ: Israel through His death (thus "the dead in Christ"), and those grafted into Israel through His life which He attained by being born of the spirit of God (thus "the living in Christ").

During these time it is most important to understand that in natural death, as it is written, "the flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it."

As pertains to this discussion for these end times, the church was presented with a choice of "life and death" just as was given to Israel by Moses in the desert. This is what Jesus also presented His disciples and those of the church age, where following the flesh (death) was personified by Peter, in contrast to how Peter came to know who Christ was by the spirit of God. No, Jesus did not give them the same choice in the same way, or the church would have caught on before the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. But it is a mistake to think that those grafted into Israel would actually be treated better than Israel, and not be faced with the same choice of life and death within the church. True, choosing Christ is life, in or out of what is perceived as the structure and leadership of the church - but whether it is the leaders of Israel or the leaders of the church, neither has been given life without making a choice.

Which brings us to the "falling away" or "the great apostasy" before the return of Christ. It is time to "look up" (not to men), but to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh (not just the leaders)...for "our redemption draws near."

Hallelujah!

Sounds peachy - except for ONE thing:

YOU claim that the gentiles were the first to receive the Spirit of God – but the BIBLE says that about 3000 JEWS received it on Pentecost (Acts 2:41). God-fearing Jews who were staying in Jerusalem - from all over the world (Acts 2:5).

The fact that you can’t even get THIS right makes it transparently clear why you can’t get a grasp on the Real Presence.
The Early Church certainly did . . .

 

[ScottA]

Sounds peachy - except for ONE thing:

YOU claim that the gentiles were the first to receive the Spirit of God – but the BIBLE says that about 3000 JEWS received it on Pentecost (Acts 2:41). God-fearing Jews who were staying in Jerusalem - from all over the world (Acts 2:5).

The fact that you can’t even get THIS right makes it transparently clear why you can’t get a grasp on the Real Presence.
The Early Church certainly did . . .

I didn't mention the Jews...Mr. transparently.

Nonetheless, the truth remains the same: Just as Paul turned from the Jews and went and preached among the gentiles, so too and from the beginning, the court outside the temple was given to the gentiles, by the word of the Lord. It is during these times that your fellows have chosen to follow men to the making of many false christs.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn't mention the Jews...Mr. transparently.

Yes, I know - that's my whole point.

You only mentioned the Gentiles and stated that THEY were the first to receive the spirit.
WRONG, according to Acts 2 . . .

Nonetheless, the truth remains the same: Just as Paul turned from the Jews and went and preached among the gentiles, so too and from the beginning, the court outside the temple was given to the gentiles, by the word of the Lord. It is during these times that your fellows have chosen to follow men to the making of many false christs.

Not sure what "false Christs" you're talking about - but we have only ONE Christ.
The same Christ of Scripture that YOU deny, having invented your own . . .

And Paul didn't "turn from" the Jews. His mission was to the Gentiles.

 

[ScottA]

Yes, I know - that's my whole point.

You only mentioned the Gentiles and stated that THEY were the first to receive the spirit.
WRONG, according to Acts 2 . . .

Not sure what "false Christs" you're talking about - but we have only ONE Christ.
The same Christ of Scripture that YOU deny, having invented your own . . .

And Paul didn't "turn from" the Jews. His mission was to the Gentiles.

Wrong on both accounts:

1. Jesus explained your misunderstanding and how the Jews were the exception and not the rule, saying "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." But rather than admit your error, you act as if the times of Israel and the times of the gentiles...are not different or separate, and use God's grace in making exception, just to win an argument that was lost two thousand years ago.
2. Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."
   

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wrong on both accounts:

1. Jesus explained your misunderstanding and how the Jews were the exception and not the rule, saying "But many who are first will be last, and the last first." But rather than admit your error, you act as if the times of Israel and the times of the gentiles...are not different or separate, and use God's grace in making exception, just to win an argument that was lost two thousand years ago.
2. Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

Paul’s mission was ALWAYS to the Gentiles.

As for the Jews on Pentecost – I can’t argue with Scripture.
Acts 2:41 explicitly states that about THREE THOUSAND JEWS were added to their number that day.

YOUR problem – besides having a rather superficial understanding of Scripture – is that you make old, matter-of-fact statements about Scripture without having a proper understanding of what it actually says.

 

[ScottA]

Paul’s mission was ALWAYS to the Gentiles.

As for the Jews on Pentecost – I can’t argue with Scripture.
Acts 2:41 explicitly states that about THREE THOUSAND JEWS were added to their number that day.

YOUR problem – besides having a rather superficial understanding of Scripture – is that you make old, matter-of-fact statements about Scripture without having a proper understanding of what it actually says.

• Your first sentence contradicts scripture.
• Your second sentence says you can't argue with scripture.
• Your third sentence says [ I ] have a problem (not you).

Good job - your ship is on the rocks!

 

[BreadOfLife]

• Your first sentence contradicts scripture.
• Your second sentence says you can't argue with scripture.
• Your third sentence says [ I ] have a problem (not you).

Good job - your ship is on the rocks!

My statement about Paul contradicts Scripture??
HARDLY . . .

Eph. 3:1
Christ Jesus made me his prisoner, so that I could help you Gentiles.

Eph. 1:7-8
God treated me with kindness. His power worked in me, and it became my job to spread the good news. 8 I am the least important of all God’s people. But God was kind and chose me to tell the Gentiles that because of Christ there are blessings that cannot be measured.

Rom 15:15-16
Yet I have written you quite boldly on some points to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Again - YOUR problem is that you don’t know how to properly divide Scripture because you have such a poor understanding of it. You pit one verse against another instead of seeing the HARMONY in both.

No – I CAN’T argue with Scripture – even if YOU try in vain to do just that . . .

 

[ScottA]

My statement about Paul contradicts Scripture??
HARDLY . . .

Eph. 3:1
Christ Jesus made me his prisoner, so that I could help you Gentiles.

Eph. 1:7-8
God treated me with kindness. His power worked in me, and it became my job to spread the good news. 8 I am the least important of all God’s people. But God was kind and chose me to tell the Gentiles that because of Christ there are blessings that cannot be measured.

Rom 15:15-16
Yet I have written you quite boldly on some points to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Again - YOUR problem is that you don’t know how to properly divide Scripture because you have such a poor understanding of it. You pit one verse against another instead of seeing the HARMONY in both.

No – I CAN’T argue with Scripture – even if YOU try in vain to do just that . . .

I already gave you the scripture:

Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles."

...So this is yet another attempt by you to catch me in error to cover up you own inability to discern the scriptures...of course after you accuse me of the very thing you yourself are doing. All of which is evidence of a psychological symptom called "projecting."

You are not making things any better for yourself.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I already gave you the scripture:
...So this is yet another attempt by you to catch me in error to cover up you own inability to discern the scriptures...of course after you accuse me of the very thing you yourself are doing. All of which is evidence of a psychological symptom called "projecting."

You are not making things any better for yourself.

WRONG.

You are once again attempting to pit one verse of Scripture against another.
ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a lie. Learn to properly divide Scripture - or stop quoting it to your own destruction.

"WE turn to the Gentiles" could include other Apostles - as well as GOD Himself.
Paul was commissioned to the Gentiles from the beginning - as I have AMPLY shown (Eph. 1:7-8, Eph. 3:1, Rom. 15:15-16).

 

[ScottA]

WRONG.

You are once again attempting to pit one verse of Scripture against another.
ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a lie. Learn to properly divide Scripture - or stop quoting it to your own destruction.

"WE turn to the Gentiles" could include other Apostles - as well as GOD Himself.
Paul was commissioned to the Gentiles from the beginning - as I have AMPLY shown (Eph. 1:7-8, Eph. 3:1, Rom. 15:15-16).

Again you project what you yourself are doing on to me!

My comments have not been anything but harmonious reconciliation of all scripture. Do you even remember what the point was? You just keep making a federal case out of the details and lawyering the words, because you haven't got a case without a false win on some obscure technicality.

The point is...you and your fellows have made the same mistake that Israel did in taking what was spoken and written by the letter instead of spiritually, even after Israel became the example of what not to do and Jesus reprimanded then, and even after it was told to you that it was spiritual.

And after all that getting off track regarding the bread and wine and remembering what Jesus has done, and obscuring it and making an idol-like religious practice out of a simple example given by Jesus that would make it easier to pass down the remembrance to future generations - here you are arguing about the elements instead of the "remembrance"...which was the point, your defense has been that the early church leaders were all in "unanimous agreement" and under the Holy Spirit. Which is a joke, because they did not begin with the Holy Spirit when it was offered, but chose to follow a man instead - the same life and death choice that was given to Israel by Moses. So, now your defense is that they had what they did not choose, and they ended with what they did not start with.

Well, I am here to tell you that Israel ended up rejecting Christ in the flesh, and the church leaders rejected Christ in the spirit - and they both thought they were correct and yet were dead wrong.

And here you are in the jeering crowd saying much the same things the leaders of Israel said, to defend those who were wrong...not realizing that the order of the day from Christ was not "strength" via the Holy spirit, but "weakness" via the flesh - and you are about to get exactly what many in Israel got, for doing so.

Ready to stop Priesting, Pharaseeing and lawyering, and start listening...or should I give up on you?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again you project what you yourself are doing on to me!

My comments have not been anything but harmonious reconciliation of all scripture. Do you even remember what the point was? You just keep making a federal case out of the details and lawyering the words, because you haven't got a case without a false win on some obscure technicality.

The point is...you and your fellows have made the same mistake that Israel did in taking what was spoken and written by the letter instead of spiritually, even after Israel became the example of what not to do and Jesus reprimanded then, and even after it was told to you that it was spiritual.

And after all that getting off track regarding the bread and wine and remembering what Jesus has done, and obscuring it and making an idol-like religious practice out of a simple example given by Jesus that would make it easier to pass down the remembrance to future generations - here you are arguing about the elements instead of the "remembrance"...which was the point, your defense has been that the early church leaders were all in "unanimous agreement" and under the Holy Spirit. Which is a joke, because they did not begin with the Holy Spirit when it was offered, but chose to follow a man instead - the same life and death choice that was given to Israel by Moses. So, now your defense is that they had what they did not choose, and they ended with what they did not start with.

Well, I am here to tell you that Israel ended up rejecting Christ in the flesh, and the church leaders rejected Christ in the spirit - and they both thought they were correct and yet were dead wrong.

And here you are in the jeering crowd saying much the same things the leaders of Israel said, to defend those who were wrong...not realizing that the order of the day from Christ was not "strength" via the Holy spirit, but "weakness" via the flesh - and you are about to get exactly what many in Israel got, for doing so.

Ready to stop Priesting, Pharaseeing and lawyering, and start listening...or should I give up on you?

No - your comments have been anything BUT harmonious reconciliation of Scripture.

In your abject ignorance - you keep trying to pit one verse against another. ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a LIE. I don't know how many times I need to convey that to you.

You talk about the Church leaders rejecting Christ in the Spirit - YOU have rejected Him in BOTH the Flesh and the Spirit - in the Eucharist.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[epostle]

Why do the religious refuse to see that if the writers of the scriptures did not write what they wrote then there would be no Bible. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Scriptures were inspired at the time they were written. You refuse to believe the inspired scriptures HAD TO BE PROVEN INSPIRED BY HUMAN BEINGS GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. You leave out the necessary HUMAN factor to force the process of canonization to fit your man made system.

The religious, who claim they know God, refuse to see that it was the Holy Spirit, (GOD), who guided those that put the Bible together. If it was just men then the book is just a book of fiction.

Another polemical false dichotomy that separates the human from the divine. Please read carefully:
Inspiration is not the same as canonization.
Canonization demands the use of (sinful human beings) to DISCERN what is inspired and what is not, and make what is truly inspired binding on all Christians.
Study the following simplified equation with great care:
GOD / HUMAN = BIBLE it's both.

NOT GOD / GOD = BIBLE

A one sided view of Bible origins IS A FANTASY. The reason anti-authority Christians do this is that they refuse to accept the historical fact that canonization of inspired books was finalized by the Catholic bishops in 397 A.D. Why do they refuse to accept this FACT? Because then they would have to recognize the authority of the Catholic Church regarding Bible origins.
SO THEY INVENT BIBLE ORIGIN FANTASIES BY CREATING A FALSE DICHOTOMY BETWEEN THE DIVINE AND THE HUMAN.

 

[epostle]

.

Well, I am here to tell you that Israel ended up rejecting Christ in the flesh, and the church leaders rejected Christ in the spirit - and they both thought they were correct and yet were dead wrong.

The Catholic Church is the fulfilment of Judaism.
You demonize both.

4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

Footnotes:

6. Cf. Gal. 3:7
7. Cf. Rom. 11:17-24
8. Cf. Eph. 2:14-16
9. Cf. Lk. 19:44
10. Cf. Rom. 11:28
11. Cf. Rom. 11:28-29; cf. dogmatic Constitution, Lumen Gentium (Light of nations) AAS, 57 (1965) pag. 20
12. Cf. Is. 66:23; Ps. 65:4; Rom. 11:11-32
13. Cf. John. 19:6
14. Cf. Rom. 12:18
15. Cf. Matt. 5:45

Nostra aetate

 

[ScottA]

No - your comments have been anything BUT harmonious reconciliation of Scripture.

In your abject ignorance - you keep trying to pit one verse against another. ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a LIE. I don't know how many times I need to convey that to you.

You talk about the Church leaders rejecting Christ in the Spirit - YOU have rejected Him in BOTH the Flesh and the Spirit - in the Eucharist.

Good luck with that . . .

No, it has been you pitting scripture against scripture, with me offering the only harmonious possibility. You see...the flesh and the spirit have no harmony, which your fellows have tried to add.

As for the church leaders rejecting Christ spiritually - it is an historical fact...they built their own church made with hands following Peter with a host of men in place (instead) of Christ, assuming all the promises made for a church "made without hands" were for their earthly gain and authority. They were wrong, it is not a church made with hands, which disqualifies them on every front...except spreading the gospel, which they have done merely by maintaining the blind ignorance of the first century, of which we have the word of scripture to confirm.

 

[ScottA]

The Catholic Church is the fulfilment of Judaism.
You demonize both.

4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.

Footnotes:

6. Cf. Gal. 3:7
7. Cf. Rom. 11:17-24
8. Cf. Eph. 2:14-16
9. Cf. Lk. 19:44
10. Cf. Rom. 11:28
11. Cf. Rom. 11:28-29; cf. dogmatic Constitution, Lumen Gentium (Light of nations) AAS, 57 (1965) pag. 20
12. Cf. Is. 66:23; Ps. 65:4; Rom. 11:11-32
13. Cf. John. 19:6
14. Cf. Rom. 12:18
15. Cf. Matt. 5:45

Nostra aetate

Both very well should be demonized. That is why Jesus woed the leaders in Israel and even called Peter Satan, because of their tenancy to be anti-Christ - they crucified Him.

But...bla bla bla... I am not going to listen to or read your numbered religious doctrine that has been flawed for millennia.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, it has been you pitting scripture against scripture, with me offering the only harmonious possibility. You see...the flesh and the spirit have no harmony, which your fellows have tried to add.

As for the church leaders rejecting Christ spiritually - it is an historical fact...they built their own church made with hands following Peter with a host of men in place (instead) of Christ, assuming all the promises made for a church "made without hands" were for their earthly gain and authority. They were wrong, it is not a church made with hands, which disqualifies them on every front...except spreading the gospel, which they have done merely by maintaining the blind ignorance of the first century, of which we have the word of scripture to confirm.

YOUR idea that it was the intention of Christ to leave His Church in complete and utter chaos after the death of the last Apostle – i not only unbiblical – it’s STUPID. Regardless of what YOU may think of Him – Jesus was NOT some idiotic country bumpkin.

He established a Church with earthly leadership – TWELVE to be exact – with one leader.
Their Bishoprics were to be successive (Acts 1:20). It’s hilarious how you Protestants ALWAYS object to a Church hierarchy – yet you ALL have them in YOUR sects.

As for what the word of Scripture DOES confirm – it confirms the likes of YOU and your Protestant Fathers sewing the seeds of disharmony and heresy – leading untold millions away from the fullness of the Gospel (Matt 7:15-20, 2 Tim. 3-4).
YOU know – wolves in sheep’s clothing . . .