BAPTISM SAVES, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
YOUR idea that it was the intention of Christ to leave His Church in complete and utter chaos after the death of the last Apostle – i not only unbiblical – it’s STUPID. Regardless of what YOU may think of Him – Jesus was NOT some idiotic country bumpkin.

He established a Church with earthly leadership – TWELVE to be exact – with one leader.
Their Bishoprics were to be successive (Acts 1:20). It’s hilarious how you Protestants ALWAYS object to a Church hierarchy – yet you ALL have them in YOUR sects.

As for what the word of Scripture DOES confirm – it confirms the likes of YOU and your Protestant Fathers sewing the seeds of disharmony and heresy – leading untold millions away from the fullness of the Gospel (Matt 7:15-20, 2 Tim. 3-4).
YOU know – wolves in sheep’s clothing . . .
You misunderstand. He did not "leave His church in complete and utter chaos", but in the perfect care of the Holy Spirit...which you are not perceiving as even being possible, even though He did much the same thing for His people throughout all of history leading up to that time. On the contrary, He would have to have been an idiot to leave the future of the kingdom in the hands of men. But He did not. You are just being blind and naive, even when history has proved you wrong.

Regardless, that is the perfect plan...and the church and leaders have fallen right into doing what should be considered predictable. That is the brilliance of what God is doing: regardless of what appears to be failure, it is success, working all things together for good for those who love Him...thus, His strength is made perfect in weakness, just as He said. But you are in the river flowing with it perceiving nothing but the flow...which is not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of God poured out upon all flesh, giving power from on high even to the worst, i.e., great apostasy...and you are in it over your head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VictoryinJesus

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You misunderstand. He did not "leave His church in complete and utter chaos", but in the perfect care of the Holy Spirit...which you are not perceiving as even being possible, even though He did much the same thing for His people throughout all of history leading up to that time. On the contrary, He would have to have been an idiot to leave the future of the kingdom in the hands of men. But He did not. You are just being blind and naive, even when history has proved you wrong.

Regardless, that is the perfect plan...and the church and leaders have fallen right into doing what should be considered predictable. That is the brilliance of what God is doing: regardless of what appears to be failure, it is success, working all things together for good for those who love Him...thus, His strength is made perfect in weakness, just as He said. But you are in the river flowing with it perceiving nothing but the flow...which is not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of God poured out upon all flesh, giving power from on high even to the worst, i.e., great apostasy...and you are in it over your head.
Soooooo, did Christ eatablish a hierarchy in His Church or not?

CAREFUL how you answer this . . .
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Soooooo, did Christ eatablish a hierarchy in His Church or not?

CAREFUL how you answer this . . .
How I answer only matters on how it is perceived.

So, then, the most correct answer is: No, because we are a body, where no hierarchy is given to the right or the left, but to the Head only. He even clarified saying, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”

But you ask in a way that suggests that you are considering the church to be of and about the world, which it is not. This is the way of the gentiles. As He said, "Yet it shall not be so among you."
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How I answer only matters on how it is perceived.

So, then, the most correct answer is: No, because we are a body, where no hierarchy is given to the right or the left, but to the Head only. He even clarified saying, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”

But you ask in a way that suggests that you are considering the church to be of and about the world, which it is not. This is the way of the gentiles. As He said, "Yet it shall not be so among you."
Soooooo, the Apostles disobeyed Jesus when they appointed OVERSEERS (Episkopoi) and PRESBYTERS as “ELDERS” to lead the various churches??

You can’t have it BOTH ways, Scotty.
Either Jesus established a hierarchy within His Church – or He left is it complete CHAOS. 1 Cor. 12:27-31 states explicitly:

1 Cor. 2:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church FIRST of all apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.


Tell me – does YOUR sect have Elders or Pastors or Teachers??
Your hypocrisy is astounding . . .
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Soooooo, the Apostles disobeyed Jesus when they appointed OVERSEERS (Episkopoi) and PRESBYTERS as “ELDERS” to lead the various churches??

You can’t have it BOTH ways, Scotty.
Either Jesus established a hierarchy within His Church – or He left is it complete CHAOS. 1 Cor. 12:27-31 states explicitly:

1 Cor. 2:27-31
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And God has placed in the church FIRST of all apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.


Tell me – does YOUR sect have Elders or Pastors or Teachers??
Your hypocrisy is astounding . . .
You are missing the point and simply promoting your own perception of how things are.

Overseers, and elders are no different than commanders of thousand and commanders of hundreds - that is not an hierarchy with God...only in the world. "Yet it shall not be so among you."

Thus, the harmony that you are purposing is a harmony between light and darkness, of which there is none. But the harmony and light that is of the kingdom, though it is sent into darkness, does not become harmonious with the darkness. You have it backwards. There is to be no hierarchy - Christ "lowered" Himself...and that is how we are to follow Him.

And your fellows have failed miserably.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You are missing the point and simply promoting your own perception of how things are.

Overseers, and elders are no different than commanders of thousand and commanders of hundreds - that is not an hierarchy with God...only in the world. "Yet it shall not be so among you."

Thus, the harmony that you are purposing is a harmony between light and darkness, of which there is none. But the harmony and light that is of the kingdom, though it is sent into darkness, does not become harmonious with the darkness. You have it backwards. There is to be no hierarchy - Christ "lowered" Himself...and that is how we are to follow Him.

And your fellows have failed miserably.
And you can try to rationalize your Protestant hierarchies all day lomg but in the end, you'll still wind up wallowing in sanctimonious hypocrisy.

Whether your hieraerchies govern thousands, hundreds or just dozens - they are STILL hierarchies.
Pastors don't lead themselves . . .

1 Tim. 5:17

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And you can try to rationalize your Protestant hierarchies all day lomg but in the end, you'll still wind up wallowing in sanctimonious hypocrisy.

Whether your hieraerchies govern thousands, hundreds or just dozens - they are STILL hierarchies.
Pastors don't lead themselves . . .

1 Tim. 5:17

The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you,
As you have clearly established with your arguments, these hypocrisies are not mine, for they are written in the scriptures.

Thank you, that will be all.

But you call pointing to them "pitting" when I do it and "proof" when you do it, and yet you cannot reconcile them. You can only offer tit for tat, and yet have accomplished nothing. You have only pointed to more and more scriptures you cannot reconcile, while I have explained the mysteries of God, which is the separation of light from darkness, sheep from the goats, and wheat among the tares.

We were promised a sword, and you and your fellows...as well as the protestants you disdain, have lived by it. Pray your case is received as a confession, rather than it coming back upon you in the same measure of condemnation you have so fiercely wielded.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As you have clearly established with your arguments, these hypocrisies are not mine, for they are written in the scriptures.

Thank you, that will be all.

But you call pointing to them "pitting" when I do it and "proof" when you do it, and yet you cannot reconcile them. You can only offer tit for tat, and yet have accomplished nothing. You have only pointed to more and more scriptures you cannot reconcile, while I have explained the mysteries of God, which is the separation of light from darkness, sheep from the goats, and wheat among the tares.

We were promised a sword, and you and your fellows...as well as the protestants you disdain, have lived by it. Pray your case is received as a confession, rather than it coming back upon you in the same measure of condemnation you have so fiercely wielded.
WRONG again, Scotty.

I don’t pit verses against each other as YOU do. I show that NOT every verse is to be absolutized and turned into a doctrine. I show you the lunacy of what YOU are doing. You need to take ALL verses that deal with a subject to formulate and develop the doctrine.

It’s funny how you speak of the “Protestants” - as if you are NOT one. You may not belong to a mainstream congregation – but make NO mistake – you ARE a Protestant.

It’s even funnier how you keep referring to me and my “fellows” – whoever THAT means . . .
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,416
1,678
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But now, I have come identifying the error and offering the solution in the Spirit, and you do not receive it.
Many great men before you "have come identifying the error and offering the solution in the Spirit...". Your identification of errors are OPPOSITE of their identifications of errors. What makes your revelations sooooo much greater than theirs that we must "receive it"? By what authority do you proclaim these things?

Curious Mary
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG again, Scotty.

I don’t pit verses against each other as YOU do. I show that NOT every verse is to be absolutized and turned into a doctrine. I show you the lunacy of what YOU are doing. You need to take ALL verses that deal with a subject to formulate and develop the doctrine.

It’s funny how you speak of the “Protestants” - as if you are NOT one. You may not belong to a mainstream congregation – but make NO mistake – you ARE a Protestant.

It’s even funnier how you keep referring to me and my “fellows” – whoever THAT means . . .
What it means...is based on your post, you are a name-caller...and I am not.

As for the doctrine and you pitting scripture against scripture, when I have the time I will give you an example of your failure to reconcile the scriptures.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What it means...is based on your post, you are a name-caller...and I am not.

As for the doctrine and you pitting scripture against scripture, when I have the time I will give you an example of your failure to reconcile the scriptures.
Where did I engage in "name-calling" with you?
Dont add bearing false witness to your list of offenses before God . . .
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Many great men before you "have come identifying the error and offering the solution in the Spirit...". Your identification of errors are OPPOSITE of their identifications of errors. What makes your revelations sooooo much greater than theirs that we must "receive it"? By what authority do you proclaim these things?

Curious Mary
It is true that many should come, but in the fullness of time God has promised to tell us before things happen. What one believes aligns with the truth or not, and in the end we all follow what we are attracted to. But the scriptures and the Spirit must align, and while the many align with part, only the truth aligns with all.
 
Last edited:

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,416
1,678
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is true that many should come, but in the fullness of time God has promised to tell us before things happen. What one believes aligns with the truth or not, and in the end we all follow what we are attracted to. But the scriptures and the Spirit must align, and while the many align with part, only the truth aligns with all.
OK...lots of words but nothing said o_O

ONCE AGAIN
what makes your revelations greater than others AND who gave you the authority to 'identify errors'?

Patient Mary
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Where did I engage in "name-calling" with you?
Dont add bearing false witness to your list of offenses before God . . .
Oh, don't act with such a guilty conscience as though I was going to hold every name you have ever called against you... I was just referring to you calling me a "Protestant!"
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK...lots of words but nothing said o_O

ONCE AGAIN
what makes your revelations greater than others AND who gave you the authority to 'identify errors'?

Patient Mary
I answered all of that.

I will go back and highlight it for you, if you promise to go back and read it.
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,744
5,599
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WRONG again, Scotty.

I don’t pit verses against each other as YOU do. I show that NOT every verse is to be absolutized and turned into a doctrine. I show you the lunacy of what YOU are doing. You need to take ALL verses that deal with a subject to formulate and develop the doctrine.
Okay...regarding you pitting scripture against scripture without reconciling them, and then projecting that on me after saying that is lunacy and a lie unless it agrees. Which, is also hypocrisy.

So, you have defended the early church fathers and your fellows who have followed in their zeal, saying that they acted according to Christ's plans for His church and they had the Holy Spirit and therefore were correct in their dealings, specifically regarding the bread and the wine and it literally being the body and blood of Christ...or something to that effect. You get my point...which was actually your point, but me just paraphrasing it.

I then came back with the fact that scripture does not specifically say that the Holy Spirit would guide the church leaders clear of the gates of Hades, but that under the greater umbrella of scripture, that God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh...good flesh and otherwise, all: "None is good, no not one." Which, not only have you not reconciled, but it takes the legs out from under your entire position.

And then, because you kept on in your usual rudeness with multiple comebacks repeating the same defense, I gave you passage after passage, explaining that what you were considering should be strength and power in the Holy Spirit, should instead be "weakness" and "lowliness." And then you went on with the same line including "hierarchy" and "leadership", for which I pointed out was "the way of the gentiles" "but not so with you." Of which you assumed to have won every exchange, just because you had a comeback, regardless of the fact that none reconciled the scriptures that should be reconciled.

In addition, it was I who explained to you how His "strength is made perfect in weakness" and that the "blindness" of the church fathers was foreshadowed by Israel's own similar type of blindness. That in spite of this, the early church fathers had accomplished to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth.

But you have not conceded that each of the scriptures that I presented do overshadow every scripture that you have presented, showing the early church fathers and their followers to have been acting presumptuously and in error and blindness, worthy of no position of hierarchy, but of scorn just as was the case with Israel, who did not concede either but after killing the prophets, crucified Christ, and then as you yourself have testified of, they followed Peter instead of the spirit of God which was offered to them as "a choice of life and death", just as it had been offered to Israel.

But you have reconciled nothing except what you have picked out that suits what you have been caught up in and have believed with the same zeal that crucified Christ.

And yet there is still time. What will you do?
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Okay...regarding you pitting scripture against scripture without reconciling them, and then projecting that on me after saying that is lunacy and a lie unless it agrees. Which, is also hypocrisy.

So, you have defended the early church fathers and your fellows who have followed in their zeal, saying that they acted according to Christ's plans for His church and they had the Holy Spirit and therefore were correct in their dealings, specifically regarding the bread and the wine and it literally being the body and blood of Christ...or something to that effect. You get my point...which was actually your point, but me just paraphrasing it.

I then came back with the fact that scripture does not specifically say that the Holy Spirit would guide the church leaders clear of the gates of Hades, but that under the greater umbrella of scripture, that God would pour out His spirit upon all flesh...good flesh and otherwise, all: "None is good, no not one." Which, not only have you not reconciled, but it takes the legs out from under your entire position.

And then, because you kept on in your usual rudeness with multiple comebacks repeating the same defense, I gave you passage after passage, explaining that what you were considering should be strength and power in the Holy Spirit, should instead be "weakness" and "lowliness." And then you went on with the same line including "hierarchy" and "leadership", for which I pointed out was "the way of the gentiles" "but not so with you." Of which you assumed to have won every exchange, just because you had a comeback, regardless of the fact that none reconciled the scriptures that should be reconciled.

In addition, it was I who explained to you how His "strength is made perfect in weakness" and that the "blindness" of the church fathers was foreshadowed by Israel's own similar type of blindness. That in spite of this, the early church fathers had accomplished to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth.

But you have not conceded that each of the scriptures that I presented do overshadow every scripture that you have presented, showing the early church fathers and their followers to have been acting presumptuously and in error and blindness, worthy of no position of hierarchy, but of scorn just as was the case with Israel, who did not concede either but after killing the prophets, crucified Christ, and then as you yourself have testified of, they followed Peter instead of the spirit of God which was offered to them as "a choice of life and death", just as it had been offered to Israel.

But you have reconciled nothing except what you have picked out that suits what you have been caught up in and have believed with the same zeal that crucified Christ.

And yet there is still time. What will you do?
I'll do what I've been doing:
Admonishing and correcting you.

As I schooled you earlier - it's NOT an accident that Jesus, the Bread of Life (John 6:35) was born in the House of Bread (Bethlehem) and placed in a feeding trough/manger (Luke 2:7).

It's NOT an accident that Jesus told His Apostles that the Bread and Wine He gave them was actually His Body and Blood (Luke 22:18-20) - even calling it the "blood of the New Covenant" (Matt. 26:28).

It's NOT an accident that Jesus told ONLY the Twelve that the Holy Spirit would guide THEM to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
He didn't tell this to the crowds - but to His innermost circle - the LEADERS of His Church.

It's NOT an accident that God made the Office (Bishopric) of those Leaders a successive office (Acts 1:12-26).

In fact - It's NOT even an accident that wolves like YOU showed up in sheep's clothing spreading a false Gospel. Jesus warned about YOU and your ilk (Matt. 7:15-20).

After going round and round with you these last several days - I am comforted by the thought that, regardless of YOUR heretical views - God is in control . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,942
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, don't act with such a guilty conscience as though I was going to hold every name you have ever called against you... I was just referring to you calling me a "Protestant!"
That's not "name-calling" - it's a fact.
It is as much a fact as my daughter being female or my dog being a canine.

The fact that you have splintered from some other Protestant sect just makes you a good Protestant doing what you are SUPPOSED to do: Splinter off . . .
 

VictoryinJesus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2017
9,652
7,918
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is the brilliance of what God is doing: regardless of what appears to be failure, it is success, working all things together for good for those who love Him...thus, His strength is made perfect in weakness, just as He said.

Agree.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ScottA

Ac28

Active Member
May 18, 2016
425
119
43
Arkansas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
All of you are Gentiles. The ill-named Lord's supper is part of the Passover Mt 26, Mk 14, Lk 22. No Gentile has ever been permitted to participate in the Passover, Ex 12
 
Last edited: