Becoming a perfect Disciple of Christ

[justbyfaith]

When you believe wrong, you live wrong. You will sin, and confess, and repent, and talk about "abiding" and talk about having "indwelling sin".

I don't know about you; but I know that I live right for the most part. My tendency is not to sin; because the element of indwelling sin is rendered dead within me (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

Let me make it simple.
A person is born again.
Who did that? Did "abiding".?

As for the doctrine of abiding, you seem to be fighting against it; and yet it is a doctrine that is taught to the genuine believer by the anointing of the Holy Ghost Himself. Notice:

1Jo 2:27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 2:28, And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Do you believe that you can go to heaven, and never keep any of the 10 commandments, or the 2 commandments that Jesus gave?

Or do you believe that you have to keep commandments to go to Heaven. ????

One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not kill."

Do you believe that there are murderers in heaven?

Adulterers? Thieves? Covetous?

The fact of the matter is, that the law defines for us, what is sin? (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

Since sin will not be allowed in heaven (it is sin that Jesus died to deal with so that we could be separated from sin and thus made worthy of heaven), it can be said that those who will continue to violate the ten commandments will not be in heaven.

Now, can a person be forgiven for violating any of the ten? Most certainly, they can.

But you must know that repentance is required; or that, if you are truly forgiven much, it will be evidenced by the fact that you love much (Luke 7:36-50). And love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4); therefore, since sin is the transgression of the law, the one who loves will not be committing sin.

 

[Behold]

Maybe not assume that Everyone thinks that way . . . I know quite a few who don't.

Your thread is . . . becoming a perfect disciple of Christ, and to me, being a perfect disciple is not just a matter of trusting Jesus but doing nothing. Now, doing does not save, but abundant life is not motionless.
To free oneself to live that life, we must become free from self-effort, learning to rest in Christ. But make no mistake, all the things God desires for us to do will become our desire when we do in fact sacrifice ourselves by ceasing self-effort. And in ceasing our own efforts, and trusting in Jesus' finished work, we find that the new creation is released to live abundantly in the grace we stand in because we are trusting Him.

Much love!

To be a perfect disciple of Christ is to have His mind. = Right believing.
You have to have His mind to have His discipleship, as perfected.
Most religious unsaved people and most carnal believers have 2 things in common.
They both sin.
They both talk endlessly about commandments and self effort.

God talks about Jesus.
The Holy Spirit lifts up Jesus
While, Most believers talk about some type of works, self effort, abiding, end times, 1 John 1, repenting...

 

[Behold]

I don't know about you; but I know that I live right for the most part. My tendency is not to sin; because the element of indwelling sin .

As i told you, i dont have indwelling sin. I have indwelling Christ.
Im not the old sinning me, im the new Creation "in Christ", "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
Christ has my sin. All of it.. Colossians 2:13
He died, its gone, and He took the law that was my former dominion off of me.
Paul said to reckon yourself dead, not because the dead part is still alive, but because this is how you rightly believe.

You talk about your tendency to sin. well that is you self identifying with your old man, your carnal man.
So, as you believe this, you have succeeded in becoming what you believe, as that is your FAITH.

Your sin consciousness that was dealt with by the blood atonement..... you are not able to depart from because you believe wrong.

Your faith is to abide to please God.
You have faith in faith, and that is not faith in Christ, and you can't see this yet.
That is not God's Grace, as your faith.... and that is why you dont exist in the place of perfect peace with God at all times that would deliver you from your sinning issue.
You are striving to resist your "tendency" to want to sin, and that is empowering the Law to make you want to sin more.

Ive written 30 Threads on how to be free from this.
You dont study them, you just park on them and preach your self righteousness as "abiding" and tell us all about your "indwelling sin" issue.
You should have listened to me 6 weeks ago when i showed up here, as now you've wasted 6 more weeks in that sinning and confessing cycle.
Will you waste now more years doing the same?

 

[justbyfaith]

While, Most believers talk about some type of works, self effort, abiding, end times, 1 John 1, repenting...

Abiding...yes, of course, 1 John 2:27-28 teaches us plainly that it is the anointing of God that teaches us to abide; and that as it has taught us to abide, we shall abide in Him.

You talk about your tendency to sin. well that is you self identifying with your old man, your carnal man.
So, as you believe this, you have succeeded in becoming what you believe, as that is your FAITH.

My tendency to sin is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it has no more say over what I do.

That is not God's Grace, as your faith.... and that is why you dont exist in the place of perfect peace with God at all times that would deliver you from your sinning issue.
You are striving to resist your "tendency" to want to sin, and that is empowering the Law to make you want to sin more.

None of this is really even true of me. So if you think you are prophesying, it turns out that you are a false prophet. But if you are saying it to me because you consider it to be true of everyone, then you admit that it is also true of you. While it is not true of me.

Living in a place of transparency before God in no way precludes that I am focused on the law; or even striving to obey it. I am in a place of not striving before the Lord currently.

You should have listened to me 6 weeks ago when i showed up here, as now you've wasted 6 more weeks in that sinning and confessing cycle.

I have probably sinned like, one time, in the past three months. I failed to abide in Christ in doing so; or, more accurately, I did so because I ceased to abide in Christ. Did I lose my position in Christ in doing so? I don't think so. But when I realized that I had sinned, I did confess it to the Lord; for that is the transparency that He requires to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7-9, a passage that you specifically teach against). And relationship / connectedness / koinoneia fellowship was restored.

 

[RogerDC]

[QUOTE="RogerDC, post: 795649, member: 8498"[/QUOTE
What has happened is that they have never understood the Grace of God, or, as Paul says about the Galatians...>"who has bewitched you...who has DECEIVED YOU.?
How and why have you stopped trusting in Christ alone to keep you saved and are now trying to keep yourself saved.
= FALLEN FROM GRACE.
= walking in the flesh.

What Paul is referring to here is the problem of some of the Galatian Christians being misled into following Mosaic law. Paul is NOT referring to the "works of the flesh" that Paul warns can result in believers not inheritng the kingdom of God. These are two separate and disctinct problems that evidently occured similtaneously in the Galatian Church. Just because the two problems are mentioned in the same chapter (5) doesn't mean they are the one and the problem.
I have already pointed this distinction out to you, but you persist with your childish stupid interpretation of the text.
How is it possible to conduct an intelligent conversation with someone who is seemingly immune to reason and is unwilling to learn?

 

[RogerDC]

What commandment is that?
And why do you trust in commandments and not in Christ?

Hey, Wise Teacher of Lawlessness, ever heard of the "law of Christ"?

 

[Behold]

What Paul is referring to here is the problem of some of the Galatian Christians being misled into following Mosaic law. ?

Try reading a bit more of the New Testament and get out of the commentary.

Go here...

3 '"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH?

 

[Behold]

Hey, Wise Teacher of Lawlessness, ever heard of the "law of Christ"?

Ever heard of the Grace of God.?
Same thing.
Jesus is the Grace of God.
Grace is the "law" for the Born again.

You are "not under the Law, but under GRACE".

See that? "under Grace".. = Law of Christ

 

[Behold]

No, the problem is that you're a Bible dunce and your theology of lawlessness is childishly-stupid, poisonous rubbish.

Ever heard of this verse? "Faith without works is dead".
And please explain why James teaches that we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24)

You sound upset.
No need to be upset.
You just need to learn some simple basic Pauline Theology.

And about your "James verse"......Let me help you with that also, Roger.
-
"faith without works is dead".
I will show you my salvation by my FAITH...
Lot of confusion about "dead faith", because heretics twist this phrase into "dead salvation" or "lost your salvation".
And of course, James is not talking about salvation, he's talking about public discipleship, where you will be perceived in public "by your FRUIT". = YOU< shall know them.
---------

James is explaining that before MEN, you are justified by your lifestyle.
This is related to "you shall know them by their fruit."
"you shall know them"...= you shall watch their lifestyle, and discover if they are following Christ or NOT...."by their FRUIT".
See it?

So, this is what James is explaining.....that before people you are justified in THEIR EYES< by your Christian Discipleship, .....so, is it alive or dead? Thats what he is asking you.....Are you walking the walk in life, or are you just trying to troll on a Christian forum and create chaos and arguments because you are a carnal person who likes to upset peace and cause RELIGIOUS strife ?

So, before MEN< James says they have to SEE YOU LIVE IT, ( SPIRITUAL FRUIT) exactly as...="by your DEEDS, your FRUIT, shall nonbelievers and believers KNOW IF YOU ARE THE REAL DEAL"
Understand James now?
So, before men you are justified or not by your WORKS, but before GOD all your works are as "filthy rags"< as they are compared to Jesus.
So, do you understand that part?

You are never EVER justified by your works, or your enduring to the end, or your holding unto your faith, or whatever you think you need to DO to make yourself and keep yourself righteous, before God.
All that is a SELF RIGHTEOUS FAIL, as the only thing that God accepts on your behalf, to save you, and keep you saved, is never what you are doing before the PUBLIC, that James is talking about.
So, get that,......learn THAT.

Listen...
God never accepts you, based on you or your lifestyle.....never..... not ever.
God only saved you, accepted you, and KEEPS YOU = because of what CHRIST DID for you, on THE Cross.
So, you are justified before men (James) by your lifestyle, (Fruit) and God justifies you as His own, by your FAITH.
God only accepts your FAITH, to then give you HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, as that is what you have to have, and NOT YOURS, to be saved. = Born again.
Salvation, is God making you Righteous, thru the Blood of Jesus The Christ, so that He can accept you into His family, as Only God's righteousness given to you as a free gift can make you acceptable to God....and never your works.

 

[RogerDC]

Believers are justified by works in the sight of men (Romans 4:2); before God, who sees the invisible (1 Samuel 16:7) a man is justified by faith apart from works (Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5 (kjv), Ephesians 2:8-9).

Romans 4:1 says “according to the flesh”, so Romans 4:2 is referring to works done without faith, which it says will only impress men, but not God. It is not saying works done with faith mean nothing to God - on the contrary, God not only demands goods works from the faithful, God rewards good works from the faithful.
You’ve misinterpreted Titus 3:5 and Eph 2:8-9 in the same way.

We obey God's commandments because we are in Christ; not in order to be in Christ.

How do you know you are “in Christ”? 1John 2:3-5 tells us:
“if we keep his commandments … we know that we are in him”.

To be in Christ you must keep his commandments - if you don’t keep his commandments, you are not in Christ. If you are not in Christ, you will not be saved. Therefore, if you don’t keep his commandments, you are not in Christ and you will not be saved. That is simple logic that adds up to salvation through faith and works.

We enter into Christ through faith

That’s right, we ENTER through faith, but that is only the first step - and entering into Christ through faith we must STAY in Christ by keeping his commandments (obedience).
Hence, James says “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” and “faith without works is dead”.
Hence, Paul warns believers that their sins (not keeping God’s commandments) can result in them going to hell (Gal 5 and 1Cor 6).
Hence, John 3:36 says, ”He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (John 3:36).
Hence, the “saints” are describes as “those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev 14:12).

In other words, faith alone won’t save you - it must be accompanied by obedience to the commandments.

 

[RogerDC]

Ever heard of the Grace of God.?
Same thing.
Jesus is the Grace of God.
Grace is the "law" for the Born again.

You are "not under the Law, but under GRACE".

See that? "under Grace".. = Law of Christ

The law of Christ is explained in these verses:

“This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you” (John 15:12).​

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us" (1John 3:23).

So the "law of Christ" is a law of WORKS of charity. Christ demands these works from believers and that is how we abide in Christ:
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

 

[justbyfaith]

That’s right, we ENTER through faith, but that is only the first step - and entering into Christ through faith we must STAY in Christ by keeping his commandments (obedience).

No, my friend.

Salvation / the righteousness of God is by faith in the beginning, by faith in the end, and by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17).

We enter into salvation by faith (Romans 5:2).

We are then commanded to continue our salvation in the same manner that we started it in (Colossians 2:6).

We begin in the Spirit...by faith...and we are not to shift over to the flesh...by works / law-keeping / our performance to maintain our salvation (Galatians 3:1-3).

In other words, faith alone won’t save you - it must be accompanied by obedience to the commandments.

Faith alone does save...and this salvation includes an inclination to obey the Lord.

But that obedience does not save (Ephesians 2:9); otherwise there will be many braggarts in heaven relating about what they did to earn their way into the kingdom...and I don't think that anyone likes a braggart. Heaven would not be truly heavenly in such a situation!

 

[justbyfaith]

To be in Christ you must keep his commandments - if you don’t keep his commandments, you are not in Christ. If you are not in Christ, you will not be saved. Therefore, if you don’t keep his commandments, you are not in Christ and you will not be saved. That is simple logic that adds up to salvation through faith and works.

We do not keep His commandments in order to be in Him. We keep His commandments because we are in Him. And we are in Him because of faith alone in Him alone.

"Ye must be born again."

Doing good works to obtain salvation is to earn salvation; and the reward is not in this reckoned as grace but as debt.

God will not owe it to you to forgive you of your sins. You have offended a holy Creator; and you presume to tell Him that because you did this and that, that He owes it to you to forgive you. Think of what that would be if it were directed towards you.

 

[RogerDC]

But redemption is merely offered to all...not given to all

No, that is incorrect. The scriptures I quoted last time clearly states that the sacrifice of Jesus redeemed ALL mankind - believers and unbelievers alike. For example:
“he is the expiation of our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” (1John 2:2).

If you don’t want to accept the unambiguous words of that verse … fine.

But redemption is merely offered to all .. not given to all.

You are conflating the Redemption with Salvation - they are not the same thing. It is Salvation that is “offered to all”. The Redemption is not offered - it is GIVEN to all mankind, unconditionally, as a free gift. No one has to ask or do anything at all to be redeemed by the Cross - everyone is redeemed as soon as they are conceived in their mother’s womb. Even if someone doesn’t want to be redeemed by the Cross … too late! … they already are, whether they like it or not. All have been redeemed but not all accept what the Redemption makes possible - salvation.

because the gift of salvation must be received in order for it to take effect.

The free gift of the Redemption takes effect only if the offer of salvation is received.

 

[justbyfaith]

The law of Christ is explained in these verses:

“This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you” (John 15:12).​

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us" (1John 3:23).

So the "law of Christ" is a law of WORKS of charity. Christ demands these works from believers and that is how we abide in Christ:
“All who keep His commandments abide in Him, and He in them.” (1John 3:24)

The law is given to show mankind that he is a sinner (Romans 3:20).

When a person comes to a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in his heart (Romans 5:5); and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4); in that love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

No, that is incorrect. The scriptures I quoted last time clearly states that the sacrifice of Jesus redeemed ALL mankind - believers and unbelievers alike. For example:
“he is the expiation of our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” (1John 2:2).

If you don’t want to accept the unambiguous words of that verse … fine.You are conflating the Redemption with Salvation - they are not the same thing. It is Salvation that is “offered to all”. The Redemption is not offered - it is GIVEN to all mankind, unconditionally, as a free gift. No one has to ask or do anything at all to be redeemed by the Cross - everyone is redeemed as soon as they are conceived in their mother’s womb. Even if someone doesn’t want to be redeemed by the Cross … too late! … they already are, whether they like it or not. All have been redeemed but not all accept what the Redemption makes possible - salvation.
The free gift of the Redemption takes effect only if the offer of salvation is received.

Redemption and salvation are synonymous terms.

 

[RogerDC]

That is a very common misunderstanding of the meaning of the word "hope" in Scriptures. In common English "hope" has the connotation of a "wish."

I see - so every time the word “hope” appears in the NT it actually means “wish” … or is it only when the word “hope” refers to salvation that it means “wish”? Either way … what nonsense. Please cite one professional Bible-linguistics scholar who agrees with your idiotic claim.

This is what happens when you subscribe to a false doctrine - you have to twist and pervert the meaning of other verses and words in order to accommodate it. If you try and force a square peg into a round hole, all you end up with is a mess.

But in the Bible, "hope" is a future certainty. This isn't just my conviction. This is a very common Christian view of the semantics of the word "hope."

In other words, it is a very common mistake make by Bible-dunces who twist the words of the Bible to suit their childishly-illogical doctrines.
A thousand wrongs don't make a right - millions of Christians delude themselves that they are already saved, but that doesn't mean they're right.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, that is incorrect. The scriptures I quoted last time clearly states that the sacrifice of Jesus redeemed ALL mankind - believers and unbelievers alike. For example:
“he is the expiation of our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD” (1John 2:2).

If you don’t want to accept the unambiguous words of that verse … fine.You are conflating the Redemption with Salvation - they are not the same thing. It is Salvation that is “offered to all”. The Redemption is not offered - it is GIVEN to all mankind, unconditionally, as a free gift. No one has to ask or do anything at all to be redeemed by the Cross - everyone is redeemed as soon as they are conceived in their mother’s womb. Even if someone doesn’t want to be redeemed by the Cross … too late! … they already are, whether they like it or not. All have been redeemed but not all accept what the Redemption makes possible - salvation.
The free gift of the Redemption takes effect only if the offer of salvation is received.

I think that this doctrine that you are purporting represents a stronghold of the enemy.

I think that because of it you somehow believe that salvation is by works and that everyone is redeemed universally.

But both salvation and redemption are by faith in Jesus Christ...they are one and the same thing.

I am bought with a price...and this is my salvation.

I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb...and this is my salvation.

I have been ransomed from the hand of the enemy...and this is my salvation.

I can see it in no other way.

I know that my redemption means that I am saved.

Is there a verse or passage that will tell us both that salvation and redemption are not synonymous terms?

Salvation and redemption are offered to all...but only those who have faith alone in Jesus Christ alone are both redeemed and saved.

 

[RogerDC]

If you don’t know you’re saved then you aren’t saved

That’s actually correct - I don’t know that I’m saved yet, because I will be saved only after I die, judged by Christ and then (hopefully) granted eternal life. So after I am granted eternal life I will know I’m saved.

You don’t know you are saved either, because you are not yet saved. You only think you’re already saved, which is nothing but a delusion based on an ignorant interpretation of scripture.

and have no authority by which to judge even if someone is saved

Wow … talk about away with the fairies. Of course I don’t have the authority to judge if someone is saved - and neither do you - only Christ has that authority! I don’t even have the authority to judge myself saved, so how could I possibly have the authority to judge someone else? You need to get your head out the clouds and get a grip on reality.

Read what Paul says on the matter:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not therefore acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgement before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God." (1Cor 4:3-5).

The only way to know you’re saved is to know the Lord Himself.

The only way to know you’re saved is to die and be judged “saved” by the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see - so every time the word “hope” appears in the NT it actually means “wish” … or is it only when the word “hope” refers to salvation that it means “wish”? Either way … what nonsense. Please cite one professional Bible-linguistics scholar who agrees with your idiotic claim.

This is what happens when you subscribe to a false doctrine - you have to twist and pervert the meaning of other verses and words in order to accommodate it. If you try and force a square peg into a round hole, all you end up with is a mess.
In other words, it is a very common mistake make by Bible-dunces who twist the words of the Bible to suit their childishly-illogical doctrines.
A thousand wrongs don't make a right - millions of Christians delude themselves that they are already saved, but that doesn't mean they're right.

Hope in scripture actually denotes a sure expectation....and I believe that the whole of Randy's post did bear that out, if I remember it correctly.

As for Christians knowing that they are saved, I believe that there is a biblical case that can be made for such a thing. For example, Romans 8:16 and 1 John 5:13.

But I think that you are jealous because you do not have such assurance.

No matter. It will provoke you to emulation.