"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[Aunty Jane]

You may choose not to believe what Paul, Peter and John teach.....
but they teach that Jesus is God.

Not once did Jesus, or any of his apostles call the son, “God” ( with a capital “G”)
“Theos” is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh. Only when it is prefaced by the definite article (ho) is it referring to Yahweh. All other references are indicated by context, as this word is used for angels, false gods and even human Judges who represented Yahweh to the people. (John 10:31-36)

Every Scripture you quoted is mistranslated because the phrasing in Greek is different to English. The translators were trinitarians, and saw advantage in twisting the meaning of Scripture where a trinitarin concept could be inserted, thus perpetuating an ancient lie that has almost the whole of Christendom, worshipping the wrong “god”, thereby breaking the first Commandment. (Ex 20:3)

Familiarity with the Greek language is beneficial when studying the Bible. When you understand the way it was written and understood by a Greek speaking audience, you get a completely different view of who “the Son of God” is.

An example is found in 1 John 5:19-20....word for word we see an example of how the Greek is phrased....

“19 οἴδαμεν We have known ὅτι that ἐκ out of τοῦ the θεοῦ God ἐσμέν, we are, καὶ and ὁ the κόσμος world ὅλος whole ἐν in τῷ the πονηρῷ wicked (one) κεῖται. is lying. 20 οἴδαμεν We have known δὲ but ὅτι that ὁ the υἱὸς Son τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἥκει, is come, καὶ and δέδωκεν he has given ἡμῖν to us διάνοιαν mental perception ἵνα in order that γινώσκομεν we are knowing τὸν the ἀληθινόν· true (one); καί and ἐσμεν we are ἐν in τῷ the ἀληθινῷ, true (one), ἐν in τῷ the υἱῷ Son αὐτοῦ of him Ἰησοῦ to Jesus Χριστῷ. Christ.”

Yahweh is “the God”....and Jesus is “the son of the God”.

Now look at Titus 2:13...(that you quoted)
“13 προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδα hope καὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus”.

By phrasing this verse differently, it appears as if Jesus is “the great God and Savior of us”, instead of speaking about two separate individuals....only one of which is “the Great God and Savior of us” because he “sent” his son to do just that.
A “Savior” is a deliverer or rescuer....both Yahweh and his son are deliverers...this is not a title exclusive to God. Just as the one who directs a rescue is also a life saver, so God and his Christ are personally involved in the redemption of mankind.

In the first century when the NT was written, the trinity did not exist, so none of the Bible writers had this in mind when they wrote their contributions. Only later when translations were introduced do we see verses phrased to infer what was never believed or written by them.

They snuck a different “god” into the Scriptures long after Jesus died...a very different “god” to the one worshipped by the nation of Israel (Deut 6:4)....and he’s been there ever since, but he is not, and never has been, “God the Son”....a term invented by the Catholic church....and “God the Holy Spirit” is not found in Scripture either. “God the Father” is clearly stated, but the other two are “from” The Father, “Yahweh”, who is always referred to as “τοῦ the θεοῦ God”(“ho theos”)

Reference to Jesus as “theos” without the definite article, indicates his divinity not his deity.

Many interlinear translations ignore the definite article and you will see a dash instead. The presence of that little dash is very revealing.....it means that the translators know it is there, and they know what it means, but they omit it because it fights with their doctrine.

Nowhere is that more obvious that in John 1:1 where the definite article reveals who is God (capital “G”) and who is not.

“In ἀρχῇ beginning ἦν was ὁ the λόγος, Word, καὶ and ὁ the λόγος Word ἦν was πρὸς toward τὸν the θεόν, God, καὶ and θεὸς god ἦν was ὁ the λόγος. Word.”

Correctly phrased in English, it should read...
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god” (God-like or divine one)
The God that Jesus preached was not a multiple god....only the pagans worshipped multiple gods.
Since Jesus was Jewish, it would have been blasphemy for him to claim to be “God”....something he never once did. Nor did the apostles believe he was God....they plainly stated that “the Father was their “one God”.(1 Cor 8:5-6)

I prefer to believe the New Testament writers.

That’s the problem....you don’t believe the NT writers...you believe trinitarian translators.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Correct, and Also These, The Simply explained GodHead, Including "Submission", eh?:

A) "For There Are Three That Bear Record in heaven, The Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost:

and These Three Are One." (1 John 5:7 AV)​

B) The SON Humbly Submitted To The Father, and Was Sent To earth, as The Humble Servant!

(Luke 4:18; John 5:30, 5:36-37, 6:39, 6:44, 6:57, 7:29, 20:21 AV)​

C) The Holy Spirit Was Doubly Humble, Being Sent By Both The Father And The SON!!

(John 14:26, 15:26 AV)​

Excellent Examples For the saints, eh?

Amen.

And, of course, we should not Avoid Any Of These, either, eh?

View attachment 77049​

I think you will find 1John5:7 was not in the original manuscripts, but added later. Absolutely, we should avoid nothing written. However, in my many years experience of debating this subject, it is those opposing mine and others views like mine you should really be telling that to.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is my testimony, that I am scarred from years in stupidity. I was functionally dissociative and mentally shattered until only very recently, having overcome drugs, alcohol, trauma, abuse, and various sufferings over the course of my life. I sought God with a desperation I rarely encounter in another. And I love every bit of affliction I endured for where it has brought me today.

I hope I may help someone here. I mean no offense. I do not lie.

Here's how you help people:

By being understanding.
By not belittling them.
By replying with scripture instead of insults.
By being NICE to persons.
By treating them the way they treat you.
By being Christlike: humble and loving.

The greatest miracle of all if finding God and becoming a friend of His.
Everyone that reads the above will be happy for you.
Many have sought God with desperation - don't be so proudful as to think you're the only one.

If you mean no offense, stop insulting members here.

Christians believe Jesus is God.
Do not belittle those that are following §Christianity.

And,,,if Jesus were not God,,,,He would be unable to save anyone.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Here's how you help people:

By being understanding.
By not belittling them.
By replying with scripture instead of insults.
By being NICE to persons.
By treating them the way they treat you.
By being Christlike: humble and loving.

Would you say the following is an example of your words?
'''i would like you to now explain to me
HOW did GOD create . give it a whirl . IT MIGHT HELP you understand more clearly .
Go ahead . give it a try .'''

 

[GodsGrace]

Not once did Jesus, or any of his apostles call the son, “God” ( with a capital “G”)
“Theos” is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh. Only when it is prefaced by the definite article (ho) is it referring to Yahweh. All other references are indicated by context, as this word is used for angels, false gods and even human Judges who represented Yahweh to the people. (John 10:31-36)

Every Scripture you quoted is mistranslated because the phrasing in Greek is different to English. The translators were trinitarians, and saw advantage in twisting the meaning of Scripture where a trinitarin concept could be inserted, thus perpetuating an ancient lie that has almost the whole of Christendom, worshipping the wrong “god”, thereby breaking the first Commandment. (Ex 20:3)

Familiarity with the Greek language is beneficial when studying the Bible. When you understand the way it was written and understood by a Greek speaking audience, you get a completely different view of who “the Son of God” is.

An example is found in 1 John 5:19-20....word for word we see an example of how the Greek is phrased....

“19 οἴδαμεν We have known ὅτι that ἐκ out of τοῦ the θεοῦ God ἐσμέν, we are, καὶ and ὁ the κόσμος world ὅλος whole ἐν in τῷ the πονηρῷ wicked (one) κεῖται. is lying. 20 οἴδαμεν We have known δὲ but ὅτι that ὁ the υἱὸς Son τοῦ of the θεοῦ God ἥκει, is come, καὶ and δέδωκεν he has given ἡμῖν to us διάνοιαν mental perception ἵνα in order that γινώσκομεν we are knowing τὸν the ἀληθινόν· true (one); καί and ἐσμεν we are ἐν in τῷ the ἀληθινῷ, true (one), ἐν in τῷ the υἱῷ Son αὐτοῦ of him Ἰησοῦ to Jesus Χριστῷ. Christ.”

Yahweh is “the God”....and Jesus is “the son of the God”.

Now look at Titus 2:13...(that you quoted)
“13 προσδεχόμενοι awaiting τὴν the μακαρίαν happy ἐλπίδα hope καὶ and ἐπιφάνειαν manifestation τῆς of the δόξης glory τοῦ of the μεγάλου great θεοῦ God καὶ and σωτῆρος of Savior ἡμῶν of us Χριστοῦ of Christ Ἰησοῦ, Jesus”.

By phrasing this verse differently, it appears as if Jesus is “the great God and Savior of us”, instead of speaking about two separate individuals....only one of which is “the Great God and Savior of us” because he “sent” his son to do just that.

How many languages do YOU speak Auntie Jane?
I speak three and know very well about the translation for
OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR.

This is referring to ONE PERSON.
Sorry your JW doctrine does not agree with what every other denomination teaches.

A “Savior” is a deliverer or rescuer....both Yahweh and his son are deliverers...this is not a title exclusive to God. Just as the one who directs a rescue is also a life saver, so God and his Christ are personally involved in the redemption of mankind.

In the first century when the NT was written, the trinity did not exist, so none of the Bible writers had this in mind when they wrote their contributions. Only later when translations were introduced do we see verses phrased to infer what was never believed or written by them.

I guess then,,,that the NT was written AFTER the 1st century since it teaches a Triune God...
the Godhead....
the Trinity.

They snuck a different “god” into the Scriptures long after Jesus died...a very different “god” to the one worshipped by the nation of Israel (Deut 6:4)....and he’s been there ever since, but he is not, and never has been, “God the Son”....a term invented by the Catholic church....and “God the Holy Spirit” is not found in Scripture either. “God the Father” is clearly stated, but the other two are “from” The Father, “Yahweh”, who is always referred to as “τοῦ the θεοῦ God”(“ho theos”)

Reference to Jesus as “theos” without the definite article, indicates his divinity not his deity.

Many interlinear translations ignore the definite article and you will see a dash instead. The presence of that little dash is very revealing.....it means that the translators know it is there, and they know what it means, but they omit it because it fights with their doctrine.

Nowhere is that more obvious that in John 1:1 where the definite article reveals who is God (capital “G”) and who is not.

“In ἀρχῇ beginning ἦν was ὁ the λόγος, Word, καὶ and ὁ the λόγος Word ἦν was πρὸς toward τὸν the θεόν, God, καὶ and θεὸς god ἦν was ὁ the λόγος. Word.”

Correctly phrased in English, it should read...
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god” (God-like or divine one)

Yes.
I know that this is what the New World Translation states.
Too bad no other version agrees with it.

It must just be one big conspiracy!

The God that Jesus preached was not a multiple god....only the pagans worshipped multiple gods.
Since Jesus was Jewish, it would have been blasphemy for him to claim to be “God”....something he never once did. Nor did the apostles believe he was God....they plainly stated that “the Father was their “one God”.(1 Cor 8:5-6)

That’s the problem....you don’t believe the NT writers...you believe trinitarian translators.

Yes ma'am.
I believe translators of the bible...
In 3 languages - and they all AGREE!

YOU, OTOH, believe the NWT.
It is your right to do so.

But to try to convince me or any other CHRISTIAN will be a total waste of time on your part.

 

[GodsGrace]

Would you say the following is an example of your words?
'''i would like you to now explain to me
HOW did GOD create . give it a whirl . IT MIGHT HELP you understand more clearly .
Go ahead . give it a try .'''

I don't know what you're talking about.

If you think I stated those words up above...
you're sadly mistaken.

You could apologize once you've checked out your source.

 

[saved by grace 101]

I don't know what you're talking about.

If you think I stated those words up above...
you're sadly mistaken.

You could apologize once you've checked out your source.

I don't know what you're talking about.

If you think I stated those words up above...
you're sadly mistaken.

You could apologize once you've checked out your source.

Nothing to apologise for, I know you did not state those words, never suggested you did. I just asked your opinion of whether you thought those words were covered by the examples you gave in the post I responded to of yours

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing to apologise for, I know you did not state those words, never suggested you did. I just asked your opinion of whether you thought those words were covered by the examples you gave in the post I responded to of yours

Perhaps you could be more precise with your wording because I don't know what you're asking.

 

[saved by grace 101]

Perhaps you could be more precise with your wording because I don't know what you're asking.

You wrote:

Here's how you help people:

By being understanding.
By not belittling them.
By replying with scripture instead of insults.
By being NICE to persons.
By treating them the way they treat you.
By being Christlike: humble and loving.

Someone else wrote:
'''i would like you to now explain to me
HOW did GOD create . give it a whirl . IT MIGHT HELP you understand more clearly .
Go ahead . give it a try .'''

Would you say what the other person wrote is a good example of what you wrote?

 

[XtraPercept]

THIS is what you stated:

"It may be the mere presence of a higher meaning which offends those who prefer the base"

This statement of yours implies that you are capable of understanding the higher meaning
while WE, the offended ones according to you, prefer the base.

I find it entertaining that those that wish to bring peace...
are those that most bring discord.

When Jesus elevated the standards of "don't kill" and "don't fornicate" to matters of internal perspective, was He belittling those to whom He taught? Do you think Paul would soften his words for you?

Do you seek God or are you sealed with the Spirit?

I think you will find 1John5:7 was not in the original manuscripts, but added later. Absolutely, we should avoid nothing written. However, in my many years experience of debating this subject, it is those opposing mine and others views like mine you should really be telling that to.

Twisted, not added. The original says that it is the water, the blood and the Spirit which testify.

Here's how you help people:

By being understanding.
By not belittling them.
By replying with scripture instead of insults.
By being NICE to persons.
By treating them the way they treat you.
By being Christlike: humble and loving.

The greatest miracle of all if finding God and becoming a friend of His.
Everyone that reads the above will be happy for you.
Many have sought God with desperation - don't be so proudful as to think you're the only one.

If you mean no offense, stop insulting members here.

Christians believe Jesus is God.
Do not belittle those that are following §Christianity.

And,,,if Jesus were not God,,,,He would be unable to save anyone.

Did Jesus insult anyone?
Was anyone insulted by Him?
What makes you think that you would not be among the offended of Him?
Is it that you take offense to me?
These are His words I use.
That is my only offense to you, and that is not my shame.

 

[GodsGrace]

You wrote:

Here's how you help people:

By being understanding.
By not belittling them.
By replying with scripture instead of insults.
By being NICE to persons.
By treating them the way they treat you.
By being Christlike: humble and loving.

Someone else wrote:
'''i would like you to now explain to me
HOW did GOD create . give it a whirl . IT MIGHT HELP you understand more clearly .
Go ahead . give it a try .'''

Would you say what the other person wrote is a good example of what you wrote?

Oh. I see.

Well, I don't know who wrote those words.
It might be someone that USUALLY does not speak this way but has become frustrated from the insults that have been rampant on this thread by some.

IF the member always speaks this way...I'd say that, no, it does not reflect what I wrote.

But here's the difference.

Some resort to insults as a matter of practice.
Some slip every now and then due to frustration caused by those that would divide the people of God by disrespecting them.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Jesus elevated the standards of "don't kill" and "don't fornicate" to matters of internal perspective, was He belittling those to whom He taught? Do you think Paul would soften his words for you?

Do you seek God or are you sealed with the Spirit?

No business of yours my good man.

Twisted, not added. The original says that it is the water, the blood and the Spirit which testify.



Did Jesus insult anyone?
Was anyone insulted by Him?
What makes you think that you would not be among the offended of Him?
Is it that you take offense to me?
These are His words I use.
That is my only offense to you, and that is not my shame.

YOU are not Jesus.

And you should worry about YOUR soul,,,
not mine or anyone else's.

 

[XtraPercept]

@GodsGrace ,

You are the one who brought your business into question. I have no shame among mine and actively seek to discuss the entirety of it for my faith in the One who trains me in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace ,

You are the one who brought your business into question. I have no shame among mine and actively seek to discuss the entirety of it for my faith in the One who trains me in it.

I don't know WHO trains you in it.
You have much to learn.

Good night.

 

[XtraPercept]

I don't know WHO trains you in it.
You have much to learn.

You are correct.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Speaking as one who has in the past discussed this subject endlessly. Equal Trinitarians will not debate the scriptures you bring forth, they are only prepared to debate their own. Indeed, in this thread where someone refused to address what I wrote concerning Heb1:8&9, they proclaimed to people I had stated something different from what I obviously had stated concerning Heb1:8. So then sadly the bearing false witness started. They haven't got any verse in the entire bible that states you must believe Jesus is the one true God to inherit eternal life, but it doesn't stop them demanding it. Sadly, some peoples heads are so crammed full of theology there is no room left for discernment.

Agreed. I often step back and observe would-be scholars pressing morphology and syntax into service to uphold a complex Trinitarian formula. When Christ returns and the truth of his origin is finally revealed, it will be clear in a way the simple-hearted readily grasp. Only then will this debate be laid to rest.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It must just be one big conspiracy!

Perhaps it is and “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”. (1 John 5:19)

How much of “the whole world” is Satan not influencing? You think he cannot fool the masses?

How many in the whole nation of Israel did he convince that Jesus was a fake Messiah?

How many of Noah’s contemporaries perished in the flood because they didn’t believe this one man?
Majority opinion is no indication of truth. Satan has the majority....the faithful have always been “few”. (Matt 7:13-14)

We will all find out soon enough.....and the “many” will be the ones offering their excuses to Jesus for swallowing their own “cool-ade”. (Matt 7:21-23)

The majority will ignore the warnings at their own peril....

 

[Hiddenthings]

Perhaps it is and “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”. (1 John 5:19)

How much of “the whole world” is Satan not influencing? You think he cannot fool the masses?

How many in the whole nation of Israel did he convince that Jesus was a fake Messiah?

How many of Noah’s contemporaries perished in the flood because they didn’t believe this one man?
Majority opinion is no indication of truth. Satan has the majority....the faithful have always been “few”. (Matt 7:13-14)

We will all find out soon enough.....and the “many” will be the ones offering their excuses to Jesus for swallowing their own “cool-ade”. (Matt 7:21-23)

The majority will ignore the warnings at their own peril....

I understand that this is how you have been taught, but the reality is far simpler, just as the Apostle Paul warned on many occasions.

Hebrews 2:1–3 – “lest we drift away”
Hebrews 3:12 – “an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God”
Hebrews 6:4–6 – those once enlightened who fall away
Hebrews 10:26–29 – willful sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth
Hebrews 12:15–17 – falling short of the grace of God

I could list every occurrence and not once is this falling away attributed to a fallen angel holding a pitch fork.

1 John 5:19 & 1 John 2:13

The words “wicked one” translate the Greek ponēros, which denotes that which is evil in itself and in its influence. From its usage in Matthew 6:13 and 13:19, it is evident that John is referring to the flesh, which these “young men” had overcome through their acceptance of Christ. The evil tendencies of the flesh dominate the world (1 John 3:12; 5:18–19), but these “young men” had separated themselves from the world and learned to bring the flesh under control.

I'm certain you will get it eventually Jane!

 

[saved by grace 101]

IF the member always speaks this way...I'd say that, no, it does not reflect what I wrote.

Well as you endorsed the post I assumed you would think it must reflect what you wrote

 

[GRACE ambassador]

When Christ returns and the truth of his origin is finally revealed, it will be clear in a way the simple-hearted readily grasp. Only then will this debate be laid to rest.

Precious friend, we have "beared with", prayed, and are still for them, Because "if trusting in
Another Jesus (2Co 11:4 AV) is an Eternal Problem", then what would be our excuse for not
trying to share God's Truth With them? - ie: God's Books Are Opened?:

Concerning the Undiluted Wrath of God, we humbly and kindly ask:

And, what will the 'dead' unbelievers have? - "For excuse" at:

The Great White Throne Judgment, When Three Books Are Opened:

(1) The Word Of God, Which Plainly And Clearly Shows:

A) Only "God Is The Righteous Judge"

(Romans 2:3, 5; Hebrews 12:23, 13:4; Revelation 18:8 AV)​

B) All Judgment Was Committed To The SON! (John 5:22-23 AV)

Why? = To Honor The SON!! ** ​

C) Revelation 20:11-12 Clearly And Plainly Teaches This Warning:

"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him That Sat On It, from Whose Face the​

earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw​

the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another​

book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were Judged out of those​

things which were written in the books, according to their works."​

​

(2) the book "of their life" which shows: 'works' of Denial Of all the above,

refusing "Grace Through faith" Redemption By God's OWN BLOOD​

(Ephesians 2:5-9; Acts 20:28 AV) For Eternal Life?​

(3) The Lamb's (God, The SON's) Book Of Life Is Opened Showing "they were Blotted Out"?

Will, they, "being cast Into The Lake Of Fire" (v 15) At That Time, still continue to "Deny His Deity,
As The Almighty God" still "Dishonoring The Father Whom they claimed they worshipped on earth"?:



Still praying that God's Grace, Peace, Mercy And Love Prevails For All To "Believe!"
Trusting Not Another, But The Correct LORD Jesus Christ!

While It Is Still Today = The Day Of God's Salvation, Which Is The Undiluted Grace Of God!

Amen.

** The LORD Jesus Christ Is God!