Beware Of Increasing Debt

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Hidden In Him

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But Wilkerson has always come back to me, and I do see how horrible TV has become. Fortunately, I watch very little of it anyway--so much now caters to homosexuality, the occult, and sadism of various kinds.

Yes. Very little my wife and I can watch either. Mostly older stuff.
I don't think the apostles all believed in the imminency of Christ's return, as if often reported. But I do think many Christians may have mistaken the urgency of spiritual decision Jesus asked for with eschatological imminency.

It's an interesting question. I think they were expecting it personally. But it was clear after the destruction of the temple that the Lord had revealed to the Body of Christ that the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel would actually be fulfilled at the end of six thousand years from the time of creation, as is spelled out in the Epistle of Barnabas, which I myself believe dates to around 80 A.D.
My own interpretation of Rev 17 sees the Harlot Babylon as Rome... But I continue to believe that Rome is the "Mystery Babylon" in Rev 17 for the present.

As do I, although I have been taking some heat for it lately (in case you missed it, which I doubt you have):
Satanism In The Vatican

Thanks. I'll try and take a look tomorrow.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes. Very little my wife and I can watch either. Mostly older stuff.


It's an interesting question. I think they were expecting it personally. But it was clear after the destruction of the temple that the Lord had revealed to the Body of Christ that the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel would actually be fulfilled at the end of six thousand years from the time of creation, as is spelled out in the Epistle of Barnabas, which I myself believe dates to around 80 A.D.


As do I, although I have been taking some heat for it lately (in case you missed it, which I doubt you have):
Satanism In The Vatican


Thanks. I'll try and take a look tomorrow.

I started reading thru the material about the girl going through the death ritual, and that's about where I quit. I had a hard time believing this was something going on in the Vatican. Didn't know what to think of it. I often have a hard time with drama and sensationalism, but perhaps there's something to it?

On the septa-millennial issue, I quite agree. The belief in the 6000 years until the Millennium has apparently been around a long time.

I've heard for years that the apostles expected Christ to come back in their lifetime. But there is the parable Jesus told in which he said the owner went away from a *long time.* Luke 12.45; 20.9.

In Luke 21, Jesus said the Jews would be defeated when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem, and would be taken away into many nations until the end of the time of the Gentiles. To think that an exile will be over in less than a generation would, I think, be naive.

So now, I think all the passages that indicate expectation of a "soon" coming of the Kingdom have to do with the urgency of moral commitment, in view of the fact Jesus was killed on behalf of sin's atonement and that only judgment remains for those who do not repent, whether in this lifetime or in the next.

It is true that early on the Disciples did expect, along with the Jews, some kind of Messianic deliverance from the Romans. But Paul put that idea to rest when he reiterated Jesus' warning, that any claim to be the Kingdom of God operating on earth is a false Messiah, and should not be trusted. Jesus said false Christs and false prophets would precede the day of judgment, and that it is the job of believers to expose these deceptions so that holy living can be preserved and modeled for others.

To expect Christ to come imminently would require that Rome suddenly evolve into a 10 state confederation in Europe, which was hardly likely in the days of the apostles. The image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream indicated the 4th Kingdom would consist of 2 long legs that ultimately evolve into 2 feet with 10 toes. The long legs represent, to me, 2000 years of Roman imperial history leading to the Antichrist. Antichrist had to appear first, before Jesus could return, just as Paul said in 2 Thes 2. And before he appears, the Roman imperial tradition had to break up into European states, as I see it. That was not likely in the time of the apostles. It really only happened after the collapse of the Holy Roman Empire, and maybe only after the collapse of the Soviet Empire.

As for John Paul Jackson, I was told for years to ignore him as a self-proclaimed prophet who had been telling false prophecies. I never took him seriously until recently. My wife and I had seen him on Christian TV, and he seemed impressive. But I was biased against him, until recently. I discovered he had died, and had made this incredible prophecy of the Coming Perfect Storm. And I find it incredibly accurate! Like Wilkerson, some things have yet to happen. But he said in 2008 or so that much of what he predicted would take place in about 10 years, which is right about now. Let me know what you think?

The strangest thing is that he said something weird would happen--some kind of woe--in the year 2012. The only thing that I can think of happened that was weird was Obama got elected for a 2nd term! ;) I guess Hurricane Sandy hit in that year as well. Jackson predicted 2 upcoming storms, one with wind speeds up to 180 mph, and one with a 500 mile diameter. These were the exact measurements on records for the future super storms that came! Irma and Irene.
 
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Huperetes

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I remember well when Wilkerson released "Set the Trumpet to thy Mouth" The guy on the front cover blowing the trumpet looked just like a friend of mine. After the elders in my church at the time read it,they called a men's meeting and it was discussed with excitement. Good times.
 
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Randy Kluth

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I remember well when Wilkerson released "Set the Trumpet to thy Mouth" The guy on the front cover blowing the trumpet looked just like a friend of mine. After the elders in my church at the time read it,they called a men's meeting and it was discussed with excitement. Good times.

That's pretty funny! lol The guys in your church look and dress like rugged old prophets? ;)

My question in all seriousness is: Why would your men's meeting discuss these prophecies of the destruction of the US "with excitement?" Is it just the fact God is speaking to the Church? Is it that God is giving us instructions on how to clean things up? What?
 

Hidden In Him

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I started reading thru the material about the girl going through the death ritual, and that's about where I quit. I had a hard time believing this was something going on in the Vatican. Didn't know what to think of it. I often have a hard time with drama and sensationalism, but perhaps there's something to it?

Tough reading. I also had to put it on the back burner when I first heard that account on a YouTube video many years ago. It was only when we started receiving dreams that kept insinuating there was something going on under the Vatican that it suddenly came back to my remembrance and I started doing some research on it. Many don't see it yet, and I fully understand because I went through the same thing once. But I'm now fully convinced it is real, especially in light of the revelations that keep coming out about it. There's a lot of smoke, which means there's fire.
I've heard for years that the apostles expected Christ to come back in their lifetime. But there is the parable Jesus told in which he said the owner went away from a *long time.* Luke 12.45; 20.9.

Yes. That's likely what immediately came to their minds when the Romans conquered Jerusalem yet the prophecies were not fulfilled.
In Luke 21, Jesus said the Jews would be defeated when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem, and would be taken away into many nations until the end of the time of the Gentiles. To think that an exile will be over in less than a generation would, I think, be naive.

Well, now keep in mind that the scripture doesn't specifically reference them coming back. It only mentions them being led captive into many nations. Wouldn't take long to do that in modern times; certainly something that could be accomplished during a 3 1/2 year period.
So now, I think all the passages that indicate expectation of a "soon" coming of the Kingdom have to do with the urgency of moral commitment

Hmm... well, I'd hate to examine that too closely for fear of you thinking I was picking you apart. I seem to be making quite a few enemies these days enough already, LoL. But while it's an interesting theory, I'm not sure it would hold up under scrutiny of the passages in question.
To expect Christ to come imminently would require that Rome suddenly evolve into a 10 state confederation in Europe, which was hardly likely in the days of the apostles.

Now THIS is insightful, and it is something that I have known for quite some time refutes the eschatology of Preterists. You are absolutely right here. There were no 10 nation-states capable of fulfilling the prophecy at that time.
The strangest thing is that he said something weird would happen--some kind of woe--in the year 2012. The only thing that I can think of happened that was weird was Obama got elected for a 2nd term! ;)

LoL! That would have been a "Woe" in my book, I can assure you.
 

Randy Kluth

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Tough reading. I also had to put it on the back burner when I first heard that account on a YouTube video many years ago. It was only when we started receiving dreams that kept insinuating there was something going on under the Vatican that it suddenly came back to my remembrance and I started doing some research on it. Many don't see it yet, and I fully understand because I went through the same thing once. But I'm now fully convinced it is real, especially in light of the revelations that keep coming out about it. There's a lot of smoke, which means there's fire.


Yes. That's likely what immediately came to their minds when the Romans conquered Jerusalem yet the prophecies were not fulfilled.


Well, now keep in mind that the scripture doesn't specifically reference them coming back. It only mentions them being led captive into many nations. Wouldn't take long to do that in modern times; certainly something that could be accomplished during a 3 1/2 year period.


Hmm... well, I'd hate to examine that too closely for fear of you thinking I was picking you apart. I seem to be making quite a few enemies these days enough already, LoL. But while it's an interesting theory, I'm not sure it would hold up under scrutiny of the passages in question.


Now THIS is insightful, and it is something that I have known for quite some time refutes the eschatology of Preterists. You are absolutely right here. There were no 10 nation-states capable of fulfilling the prophecy at that time.


LoL! That would have been a "Woe" in my book, I can assure you.

Don't worry about pushing back on any of my beliefs. I'm very used to it, and I don't dismiss anybody simply because they honestly disagree. Since I've discussed these things for a long time I'm prepared to look at all of the options. Feel free, brother.

It's absolutely impossible that I not invite flack or rebuttal with my unique positions on eschatology. I have only been able to solve my personal questions about biblical eschatology by capitulating to a number of arguments from different eschatological schools. For example, I do borrow from Preterists, as well as from Dispensationalists. And I place a premium on what the Church Fathers believed. That invites a real debate! :)
 
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Hidden In Him

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youtube john paul jackson storm - safesearch.norton.com Video Search Results

@Randy Kluth. Stunning. Takes him a while to get going - almost turned him off - but by around 19:00 he is saying stuff that is just amazing. He was dead on about Mubarak and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

I'm looking for a transcript to copy and can't find one that is complete... so I guess I will have to write it out myself:

On the economic side of things, a bubble of hope is going to come to this nation, but it will be short-lived. And in that span, there is going to be just enough time for godly people to make the necessary adjustments. However it will not be a time to take on additional debt. Commercial paper and credit card payments are another domino that is yet to fall, and I have seen it fall, as joblessness increases and buildings lay empty. I saw malls that were more than half empty, and stores that were closed; strip malls and other types of malls. With this, nobody's leasing the buildings or very few are leasing the buildings, and so there's no lease payment that the owner needs in order to cover the debt service on those buildings. Commercial paper will be problematic in economic issues, especially with lending institutions. We had a financial planner the other day ask me, "Will there be stagflation, or deflation or inflation or hyperinflation?", and I had to look at him and tell him, "It's gonna be all of these. They are all waves on a quickly changing economic sea, and what has worked in the past will only work for a brief period of time in this changing economic era..." The dollar is going to begin to lose value, and is going to become near on par with the Mexican peso and the Canadian dollar. (19:22 - 21:07).

Is that not exactly what I have been citing in this thread? :eek: Good Heavens. It spells it out almost word for word, and that was like 10 years ago... amazing how the Lord uses people sometimes.

The "bubble of hope" that was short-lived was the first three years of the Trump Presidency, and it is now over. "In that span, there is going to be just enough time for godly people to make the necessary adjustments. However it will not be a time to take on additional debt." That is practically word for word with the Selveraj prophecy and my title for this thread. The rest is virtually an exact summation of the scenario described in the articles I quoted... unbelievable.

And some say the gifts have passed away, LoL. I'm tempted to invite a few Cessationist members to this thread (although I'm guessing they'd still tell me it's all just a coincidence).

Thank you for the video. I might never have seen it if you hadn't posted a link.

Need to share this with the other forum. There's a Christian investor over there that would benefit from what he said about God trusting some to invest very wisely and profit in the midst of the downfall.
 
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marks

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Posted this elsewhere, but out of care for this community I thought it should be posted here as well. Some are saying the world economy will rebound from Covid-19, but as much as I would like to believe that to be true, I think it is a very uninformed opinion.

The following vision is instead what is likely about to come to pass. It is a warning for believers to trust the Lord for their financial welfare rather than keep borrowing from creditors, because the standard of living we enjoyed up until now, especially in the States, is now about to become a thing of the past. Those who incur more debt now will place themselves in danger of being in bondage to it for a very long time to come, as paying off debt will become extremely difficult in the not too distant future.

The following vision was given two decades ago, but I believe its fulfillment is now at hand.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him
_______________

A Field Of Dreams Or Nightmares?

While praying about the future of our economy, I was given a vision of a long, lush green field. I felt that this represented a long period of economic prosperity, which has generally been the case since that time. While praying in August 1995, I saw this field in a vision again, but with much more detail. The end of the field was covered in fog. Not far into the fog there was a very steep cliff. In the middle of the cliff, there was a narrow, twisting, steep path that appeared like a descending bridge. It had the same green grass on it that the field did and went all the way to the bottom.

Those who walked into the fog almost all missed the little path and fell over the cliff. Some of these died, but nets below the cliffs caught many of them. However, these nets were not there to save the people but to trap them. Others entered the fog carefully, dropping to their knees and searching for the path, which they seemed to intuitively know was there. Most of those looking for the path were able to find it and carefully started down on their knees. A few people had parachutes, and they jumped off the cliff into the fog.

At the bottom there was a sea with four kinds of ships in the harbor: slave ships, warships, luxury liners, and hospital ships. Most of the ships were slavers. The next greatest number was warships. There were only five hospital ships, all of which were on clean, well-kept docks right in the middle of the harbor. The two luxury liners were docked at each end of the harbor. An abundance of supplies were on their docks, but both the docks and ships looked filthy and poorly maintained. No warships were docked, but all kept moving about in the harbor.

The people who fell into the nets were put on the slave ships...


Interpretation and Insights

That I can now see the end of this field indicates that the end of our economic prosperity is now in sight. What I saw at the end was much more catastrophic than I had ever thought. There are some very dark times ahead, but at the same time there is a whole new world being built right in our midst that is more wonderful than we can even imagine.

To the degree that we have built our lives and faith on the economy of the world, we have built on a very shaky foundation. We know that the time will come when everything that can be shaken will be. The time that we have been given until that happens is for the purpose of preparation. Let us build our hope and trust on the kingdom that alone cannot be shaken.

Those who kept walking into the fog just as they had been walking in the open field, not discerning or not acknowledging the change, either perished or fell into slavery. Those who immediately fell to their knees found a safe way down, but it still led down. They had to stay on their knees all the way; no one could have stood up on that slope because it was too steep and narrow. Falling to our knees speaks of prayer. As soon as we see the fog, or confusion, we must pray for every step we take thereafter.

That no one ascended, but all went down to the bottom of the cliff, spoke to me that the economy of the whole world was going down. Many will survive what is coming, but not at the level they are presently. Much of our present standard of living has been built upon credit, borrowing from the future, and the future is now here. We are fast approaching the time when the bills will have to be paid. That will cause a drastic reduction of our present lifestyles.

I felt that the slave ships were banks. During the Great Depression, banks were so over extended that most of them failed. Somehow, they have now positioned themselves to not only survive another economic collapse, but will actually be in a place to enslave those who are in debt to them...

A Field of Dreams or Nightmares? by Rick Joyner | MorningStar Prophetic Bulletins 2012
Just finished reading this. Extremely vague. Could be applied to any number of situations.

Certainly I can prophesy, the world economy will crash, many will become unemployed, many will be foreclosed upon, many businesses will fail . . .

And then wait.

10 years from now, 20 years, 30 years, and economic collapse!

I'm not convinced.

But then, I've been watching this sort of prophecy for decades now. Vague words that will be matched to anything that resembles them.

Interestingly, precious few have actual details that could be pointed to. This is a good example. Let's say . . .

There is economic collapse, and standards of living fall. What is there to make me think that Rick Joyner actually prophesied That Collapse? This is so general, it could be any collapse.

"There is a storm coming, and it's going to rain really hard!" Prophecy?
 

marks

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The prophecy states as follows:

"2020 is a year of preparation. From 2021 on... the President of China will arise mightily and strong like the mighty statue of Nebuchadnezzar. He will seek to bring all nations under his control. He will gain great strength to dominate the world's economy... once a nation becomes economically strong, other nations will bow down to listen. Thirdly, the United States of America. It will weaken in strength and dominance. It will be like a molting eagle without strength or vigor. Its feathers will be plucked away. Its beak will be broken and cast away. Even its eyes will be gouged out and thrown away. It will become helpless, purposeless." - Sadhu Selveraj.
Thank you! I'm printing this one for my collection. I love it when they put dates!
 

marks

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"purposeless" here likely refers to mass unemployment, which again will be all the more reason not to incur increasing debt.
What did the prophet say it meant?

Or should we all interpret for ourselves?
 

marks

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Who gave this prophecy? I have heard some prophesy quite the opposite. I wouldn't worry about China. The globalist have a set agenda for her and it doesn't include becoming the world's number 1 economy. In fact, their near monopoly on manufacturing has been exposed. The US and other western nations are developing backup plans that will siphon off a large amount of China's industry. The real fear that presents itself is the judgement of God on this nation for it's casual acceptance of homosexuality and the murder of the unborn.
I've heard the opposite also. I guess someone's not a true prophet!
 

Hidden In Him

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Just finished reading this. Extremely vague. Could be applied to any number of situations.

Certainly I can prophesy, the world economy will crash, many will become unemployed, many will be foreclosed upon, many businesses will fail . . .

Marks, we've been through 20 pages of this discussion before, remember? No need to do it again here, and allow it to completely detract from the issues posed in this thread.
The fulfillment of this prophecy.

And since it appears to be the direction you intend on going again with this line of questioning, I'm going to have to decline. If you wish to start another thread, do so. But don't hijack yet another thread just so you can turn it into "The Marks Show" again. That's irritating.
 

marks

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I am so sorry, but there is something very wrong here.....don’t know what it is exactly, a bit like the other thread- a sense that YOU yourself lay behind some of the words, and not God ........anyway, the test of anything given will be time ...........
I am sure you are aware of what it says in scripture about proclaiming something as being from God, that isn’t............
I don’t mean to cause offence in anyway, but cannot just sit here and say nothing x
I will be the first one to apologise if I am wrong x
Rita
Hi Rita,

I have the same difficulties.

The one way I know to be sure is when it happens. If a "prophecy" is so vague that you can point to any number of things to say, see, it happened, what good is it?

When Ezekiel prophesied that Tyre would be scrapped off into the sea, and that the fishermen would dry their nets where it was, well, Alexander scraped the old city into the sea to make a causeway to the island they all moved to so he could take it. And the archeologist, sitting on a hill in Lebanon, watching the fishermen drying nets below, remembered that passage, and found the ancient ruins.

That's prophecy!
 
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marks

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That is what I believe actually gets true prophets in trouble sometimes. Even they don't realize how distant the fulfillment will be, so they start setting guesstimations (sorry, had to create a word) on the timing of their fulfillment because of their certainty that they are from the Lord, only to end up being wrong on the timing, judging it as happening far sooner than it actually will. But if one looks closely, the apostles were making the same mistake in NT times. They were publicly proclaiming that the Lord's return was at hand because they fully believed in the prophecies going forth about His return. But they assumed it would be fulfilled in their lifetimes, and they were mistaken.
I'd love to see you back this up!

I'd hate to think that you were trying to make the Apostles into false prophets, to give a pass on those who said things that didn't come about.
 

marks

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Randy Kluth said:
But prophets do not have to have perfect theology to see visions and to relate them to us. I also had a problem with Wilkerson identifying the US with Harlot Babylon, and wrote him about my concern. He said he was not expositing the Rev 17 passage, but explaining how he saw US as Harlot Babylon in his vision.

Very good! Yes, I would have strongly disagreed with him as well. Even if not referencing Revelation 17 and 18 directly, he would have been confusing things by making indirect reference.

Not Wikerson making things confusing, rather, if his vision was from God, then the US is the harlot. Or you are piecemealing the vision to make it palatable to your understandings.

And if that is how you look at prophetic visions, then what is any of it worth? If you pull out this part, but leave that part?
 

marks

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But the church will be a bastion of hope, and the TRUE source of help and ministry to the world; one which even the most corrupt and violent elements in future society will give way to and respect.
So . . . does this prophecy come from a "dominionist" setting?
 

Hidden In Him

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I'd love to see you back this up!

I'd hate to think that you were trying to make the Apostles into false prophets, to give a pass on those who said things that didn't come about.

Marks, again this is something we have been through before. You are resorting to false accusation again, and you are a better man than that.

Continue making false accusations against me if you must, but I will trust that readers know I wouldn't teach something as ridiculous as that. But I will not go round and round with you again.