Bible Study: The Gospel is in the Torah

[Lizbeth]

It's easy to put oneself in the favour column...but how many who say Lord, Lord, will use that very kind of logic as they weep and gnash their teeth in anger because they were duped?

Who is God for? The widow, the fatherless, the poor, the meek...those who left all to follow Christ.

Who is He against? The proud, the rich the smug, those who use unrighteous judgment and take away righteousness from the righteous.

Who is taking away righteousness from the righteous? Who is righteous? Though just about everyone is capable of at least some righteous seeming deeds, fallen human beings are all fundamentally flawed and unrighteous in the old man of the flesh......ALL have sinned.....all are dead in sins who don't have Christ. Only Jesus takes away and cancels anyone's unrighteousness if and when we come to faith in Him, by giving us a new man who is perfect and righteous - a new creation made in the image of Christ, says the bible, because our new man is OF Him. We are instructed then to reckon our old man dead and crucified and live as those who are alive to God. All those wonderful things that are said of the child of God belong to our new man, the new creature, not the old. This is the GOSPEL, Epi......it's what the bible teaches:

Rom 6:1-8
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

The question then becomes one of whether we walking in our new man, walking in the Spirit (or how much or to what degree etc) and manifesting the fruits of the Spirit. First of all we need to receive the Holy Spirit after we believe, and then also it is a matter of learning and growing and the Lord working in our life and heart as we reach for, pay the price for, and seek and cooperate with Him and submit to Him and allow Him to keep taking more ground. And take into account that everyone is given a different measure of grace and faith too and will be judged individually according to the measure each received, not according to what they didn't receive. There are greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven, much like how earthly life mirrors that.

In my observation most churches quench the Spirit and don't teach or disciple on life in the Spirit or even believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit so growth gets limited from the get-go. And no one can be greater than their teacher......at some point we need to be weaned off most human teachers to be taught by THE Teacher if we are to keep growing in the Lord.

 

[Lizbeth]

Only a pretender would come to your conclusion. You are not understanding the bible narrative nor the gospel. Notice what Peter says after seeing God's acceptance of the Gentiles...


“But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.” Acts 10:35

In order to fear the Lord one must first of all believe on Him. This is not talking about unbelieving Gentiles, but believing.

 

[Lizbeth]

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Tim 2:20-21

A person who is not yet purged runs the risk of being rejected as a vessel of DISHONOUR although fully saved. Outer darkness is an eternal destiny. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Are you purged yet Epi? This is an ongoing work of the Lord, if we are submitting to it and allowing Him to.

 

[Episkopos]

In order to fear the Lord one must first of all believe on Him. This is not talking about unbelieving Gentiles, but believing.

Believing what? How? Again, you filter out the truth with your own judgments. Why do you put so much emphasis on having certain beliefs? We will not be judged against our beliefs but by our works. I haven't found many modern type believers with the honesty to admit what is plainly written in the bible. And these same "experts' put undue emphasis on misunderstood verse that cancel the weight of scripture.

Of course other religions also believe in God...and some of these God could see as righteous, especially if they qualify as being meek, How many modern believers in the West are meek? Not many. So for these, they better be holy and perfect. As Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The fear of the Lord is universal...the sacrifice of Jesus was for all people that qualify in MEEKNESS. No religion has a monopoly on meekness. The wise don't try to get in the way of a merciful God and those on whom He wishes to have mercy.

 

[Lizbeth]

I uphold Jesus. You deny Him...and I can prove it right now...I can post the "wholesome" words of Jesus and you will rail against them.

A certain young ruler came and asked Jesus DIRECTLY...what must I do to be saved...to INHERIT eternal life???

Jesus answered ....obey the commandments.

Which commandments? The righteousness commandments. Loving your neighbour as yourself.....DOING righteousness.

Is that you what you teach? Do you teach what Jesus taught?

The young man asked what else was there? Since he already understood the law of righteousness.

Jesus said...if you would be PERFECT, sell you have and you will have treasure in heaven...and come follow Me.

Now, based on your dogmatic indoctrination, you will deny this and NOT obey Christ...you will deny Him and His words.

Show everyone here what you really think of Jesus...

Make a sad face and ignore His words. That's all you have. I'm sure there are others here who likewise have no love for the truth.

It's so unfortunate that you keep throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[mailmandan]

In order to fear the Lord one must first of all believe on Him. This is not talking about unbelieving Gentiles, but believing.

Amen! In regard to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of having been saved through faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are the fruit of, but not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as 'descriptive' of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ. We must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:35) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (Acts 10:43). We must rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15) The question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only or is now available to Gentiles also (those in every nation who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right) which Peter learned in his vision in Acts 10.

 

[Episkopos]

Who is taking away righteousness from the righteous?

I have only ever seen you do this...and you are convinced in your judgment.

Who is righteous?

Who you say is? Or God? (I know you think you understand God and His judgments from a cursory reading of the bible)

Though just about everyone is capable of at least some righteous seeming deeds, fallen human beings are all fundamentally flawed and unrighteous in the old man of the flesh......ALL have sinned.....all are dead in sins who don't have Christ.

Most who claim to be in Christ are also dead in sin. The irony here is that you believe in a (at least partially) sinful holiness which makes any pretense of righteousness moot.

Only Jesus takes away and cancels anyone's unrighteousness if and when we come to faith in Him, by giving us a new man who is perfect and righteous - a new creation made in the image of Christ, says the bible, because our new man is OF Him. We are instructed then to reckon our old man dead and crucified and live as those who are alive to God. All those wonderful things that are said of the child of God belong to our new man, the new creature, not the old. This is the GOSPEL, Epi......it's what the bible teaches:

Rom 6:1-8
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him

The question then becomes one of whether we walking in our new man, walking in the Spirit (or how much or to what degree etc) and manifesting the fruits of the Spirit. First of all we need to receive the Holy Spirit after we believe, and then also it is a matter of learning and growing and the Lord working in our life and heart as we reach for, pay the price for, and seek and cooperate with Him and submit to Him and allow Him to keep taking more ground. And take into account that everyone is given a different measure of grace and faith too and will be judged individually according to the measure each received, not according to what they didn't receive. There are greater and lesser in the kingdom of heaven, much like how earthly life mirrors that.

In my observation most churches quench the Spirit and don't teach or disciple on life in the Spirit or even believe in baptism of the Holy Spirit so growth gets limited from the get-go. And no one can be greater than their teacher......at some point we need to be weaned off most human teachers to be taught by THE Teacher if we are to keep growing in the Lord.

You are confusing a human righteousness (Like that of Abraham or Abel or John the Baptist) which is simple and flawed with the perfection of walking under the covering of God's righteousness by entering INTO Christ. A mistake which will cause serious harm to multitudes who think they can judge others who don't believe as they do to be unrighteous and beyond God's mercy.

The eternal truth is that non-Christians cannot be HOLY...but they can be justified on the human level if they are meek and fear the Lord. Humility is for ALL. God is merciful. Jesus died for mankind not just the church. These are ETERNAL truths yet to be discovered by the vast majority...to their detriment.

 

[Lizbeth]

The fear of the Lord is universal

No it isn't. If you are equating the fear of idols and demons with the fear of the Lord, that is blasphemous. Even believers can be lacking the fear of the Lord, like Israel of old forgot the fear of the Lord in her apostasy, so even just from that alone it cannot be universal.

 

[Episkopos]

No it isn't. If you are equating the fear of idols and demons with the fear of the Lord, that is blasphemous. Even believers can be lacking the fear of the Lord, like Israel of old forgot the fear of the Lord in her apostasy, so even just from that alone it cannot be universal.

This is of course totally untrue. There were Greeks (pagan background) who attended Jewish synagogues before Jesus came who were called "God-fearers". If that's the case then at least some Jews also feared God.

Your ideology is made up and not biblical at all.

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance, not the righteous.

The righteous are called to the upward walk in Christ. Like Cornelius the Roman Centurion. Of course a sinner can repent and be let into the higher walk, as I was, but then righteousness must be LEARNED, or else one is disqualified from any proximity to God. God is righteous...and He treats people as they show themselves to be.

If you really knew the bible you would see how much is contained in what I say....far too deep for the casual believer. A Berean will investigate.

 

[Episkopos]

When one is spiritual in Christ, one sees the world differently...as Jesus does. Vain religion is seen for what it is...a human and sinful version of the truth that perverts justice as God sees it.

God is more merciful than those who claim to represent Him attest to. God is love...but also righteous. If we are meek and non-judgmental God goes easy on us. Otherwise God's law destroys and burns away. May the Lord be glorified always.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is of course totally untrue. There were Greeks (pagan background) who attended Jewish synagogues before Jesus came who were called "God-fearers". If that's the case then at least some Jews also feared God.

Some Jews and some Greeks......is not universal. And only God knows how many of those had the kind of faith that pleases Him, like Abraham and other OT saints.

 

[Brakelite]

The gospel was presented to the world at the time of the early church through a living testimony backed up by the Old Testament Scriptures. The written New Testament came later. Does our understanding of the gospel line up with the Scriptures?

"Thy way O God is in the sanctuary."
The OT sanctuary was the gospel to Israel. In the sanctuary is found all the aspects of God's process designed for our redemption. Sacrifice, Grace, Prayer, Spirit, Word, Truth, Mercy, and Law.
The Hebrew penitent couldn't just drop the lamb off and walk away. He has to kneel down and feel the emotion, the shame, and even the terror of the animal as he pulled the knife across the throat. How can we do any different... Treat Jesus as a get out of jail free card like some cow grazing in the back paddock awaiting his execution?...or confess our sinfulness and shame and bow in humility before God each time we fail Him, trusting in hope and rising up with joy knowing Jesus bore all our guilt and shame at Calvary, thanking Him for His faithfulness and love. We ought to be in a community also which allows us that freedom to express such emotions. The OT sanctuary services encouraged such confessions with all the accompanying emotions and of sorrow and joy.

 

[Episkopos]

Some Jews and some Greeks......is not universal. And only God knows how many of those had the kind of faith that pleases Him, like Abraham and other OT saints.

Ignorance is not bliss here. People all over the world have come to certain understandings in every culture. Read the bible without the blinders an you will see that is EVERY nation God has those who fear Him.

 

[Episkopos]

"Thy way O God is in the sanctuary."
The OT sanctuary was the gospel to Israel. In the sanctuary is found all the aspects of God's process designed for our redemption. Sacrifice, Grace, Prayer, Spirit, Word, Truth, Mercy, and Law.

I can tell you didn't listen to the video. What I'm saying is that the NEW Covenant gospel is in the Torah.

 

[Brakelite]

I can tell you didn't listen to the video. What I'm saying is that the NEW Covenant gospel is in the Torah.

Yep, I'm aware. Starting with Adam and Eve in the garden. Genesis 3:15. God providing Himself a sacrifice for sin. Just as Abraham said to his Isaac on the way up the hill. And the entire sanctuary service pointed to that truth, ultimately found in Jesus.

 

[GracePeace]

Why do you put so much emphasis on having certain beliefs? We will not be judged against our beliefs but by our works.

Those verses are just "extra pieces". They're in there by mistake. I know this because "faith alone"--I make it the "Sun" of my Bible "solar system", and whatever verses threaten that, too bad, I don't need them, they don't exist, they're "extra", put in there by mistake.

 

[Brakelite]

Those verses are just "extra pieces". They're in there by mistake. I know this because "faith alone"--I make it the "Sun" of my Bible "solar system", and whatever verses threaten that, too bad, I don't need them, they don't exist, they're "extra", put in there by mistake.

I agree with @Episkopos . We are judged (not saved) by our works. Several parables and specific teachings depict that truth. Yes, we are saved by grace alone through faith alone. But God judges whether our faith is real by judging our works.
EDIT... And it isn't for His own benefit that God investigates our works in order to judge them. It's for the rest of the universe. First, the angels, that they may be assured that those entering into their home aren't a threat to their eternal security as Lucifer, aka Satan, was. Then there's the inhabitants of other worlds, and finally of course, there's other men and women of this world who will be asking questions, and looking at me in particular, what's he doing here???

 

[Episkopos]

Those verses are just "extra pieces". They're in there by mistake. I know this because "faith alone"--I make it the "Sun" of my Bible "solar system", and whatever verses threaten that, too bad, I don't need them, they don't exist, they're "extra", put in there by mistake.

Here is a typical case of an ideology based on a misunderstood verse or verses making one reject the words of God...and all wisdom. As if what is rejected isn't stated over and over again in many places. Oh wait, didn't the builders also reject the chief corner Stone? Was Jesus and what He taught about inheriting life through obeying the commandments...just an "extra" ? Are His words also there by mistake?

So what do you call your religion?

 

[GracePeace]

Here is a typical case of an ideology based on a misunderstood verse or verses making one reject the words of God...and all wisdom. As if what is rejected isn't stated over and over again in many places. Oh wait, didn't the builders also reject the chief corner Stone? Was Jesus and what He taught about inheriting life through obeying the commandments...just an "extra" ? Are His words also there by mistake?

So what do you call your religion?

Too late, sucker! I built the bike, and my son's riding it--told you I didn't need those extra pieces!

 

[GracePeace]

I agree with @Episkopos . We are judged (not saved) by our works.

Ro 2:6-16 says eternal life depends on whether you are justified (which depends on your works) on that Day : are you saying can be saved AND condemned (not justified) and not repaid eternal life but wrath on that Day? I thought salvation was FROM His righteous wrath on unrighteousness.