Bible Translation Study

[DuckieLady]

An interesting claim of the date for the crucifixion as the actual day Christ was born is still debated. I have seen a seven year spread as to the year in which Christ was born. How close to Jerusalem was the earthquake's epicentre is not given as a 8.2 earthquake would probably levelled Jerusalem not shaken it such that the curtain in the temple was torn from top to bottom. There is evidence of fractured rocks on steps near the temple mould, but as the Governmental and historical records of that time do not indicate such a large earthquake as claimed, occurred, I am happy with the account only in Matthew that the ground was shaken and rocks were split. This could have been as a result of an 8.2 earthquake some distant from Jerusalem as we see occurring today.

Shalom

I would say look at what is said

rocks split and graves opened are signs of an earthquake not turmoil

what’s your thoughts

Do ya'll see this ridiculousness here with this 8.0

Feel like I'm watching Cloverfield IRL

NO THANK YOU

How is that not big enough? I'm going to have to take 2MG of melatonin tonight instead of 1MG

 

[amadeus]

@Mayflower
By the time God drew me to Him I already had my degree with a major in Spanish and a minor in German [1971] as well as being married with two toddlers in tow. At the age of 32 I began reading the Bible for the first time in my life. I had never even owned one before. I really got into it, the KJV, of course as that the only they used in the UPC [Oneness Jesus Only group].

Working for Uncle Sam I met an Episcopalian brother in the Lord who had a degree in Russian. We worked the same job for Social Security but as side jobs both of us were also official translators for SSA [Social Security Administration]. We used to get into lengthy and thoroughly enjoyable Bible discussions during our breaks. He was reading the Bible in Russian as well as English and asked me about my Spanish and German. We were working together at the huge new SSA Program Center in Richmond, CA. at the time.

I don't remember the occasion, but that brother in Christ went to a bookstore in San Francisco [across the Bay from us] and bought me two new Bibles, one in Spanish, the Casiodoro de Reina (1569) Revised by Valera (1602) translation and the other an original Martin Luther translation in German. I received those on June 28, 1978 and began reading the Bible from that time in 3 languages. By then my German especially was very rusty as translating mostly German birth and marriage certificates does not compare with reading a Bible. [I still have those two well worn old Bibles, but I don't read from them anymore.]

A lot of water under the bridge but now I read three Bibles regularly, which really gives me a different perspective with difficult passages.

@marks mentioned the "thees" and "thous" of the KJV as corresponding more directly to what one would find in the original Greek of the Bible. I am sure he is correct. The grammatical usages in both Spanish and German are much closer to the KJV than to any modern English Bible. The German more so than the Spanish! My German and Spanish versions were both in use prior to 1611 the date of the KJV.

While I have lots of other English Bibles for reference I would not ever change my primary one from the KJV. The 3 languages for me complement each other. I always have a second Bible open when I am reading from any one of the three. I rotate daily which one is primary. I always have handy Spanish and German dictionaries as well as a concordance and lexicon during my morning reading and prayer time. When I come across an apparent discrepancy or difference in meaning I can and do check the other two Bibles to see how the idea is expressed there. I annotate all of my Bibles regularly in pencil and cross refer verses in them to one another as well as other verses in the same Bible.

When do we stop growing closer to God? While we still have time the answer should be, I believe: Never!

I do strongly recommend for anyone who can... to read the Bible in a language other than English. I tried once getting in the original languages myself, but I was already old and set in my ways. This old dog can learn new tricks but the process is much slower than it used to be so I soon gave up on the Hebrew and Greek. For those who can, make use such knowledge... but never depend on what your brain can do above what God can do in your heart. I strayed away from that one time and it cost me a lot...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do ya'll see this ridiculousness here with this 8.0

Feel like I'm watching Cloverfield IRL

NO THANK YOU

How is that not big enough? I'm going to have to take 2MG of melatonin tonight instead of 1MG

Crazy?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I know some verses are omitted. I see some NIV versions with a star by it, the part that was omitted, and why. Ill look up an example if there is one online. I own a few versions, but not NIV. I read it online.

Whenever a new translation comes out, the first thing I check is if it includes whole verses, or half verses.

Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 (NASB)
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The missing words are the "condition." Without that condition there will be many to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:21-23.

1 John 5:7 (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 (NASB)
7 For there are three that testify:

God is missing here. Apostates tell us that the missing portion was ADDED, rather than deleted. If so, then how could an early church father, before the codices without the words, quote the whole verse?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Whenever a new translation comes out, the first thing I check is if it includes whole verses, or half verses.

Romans 8:1 (NKJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 (NASB)
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

The missing words are the "condition." Without that condition there will be many to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness. Matthew 7:21-23.

?

the missing is not a condition, but a description, that’s if it is even origional, considering the same words are used a few verses after

 

[DNB]

so long as you stuck with one of them primarily. Again, this is just my suggestion. The idea is that you are trying to commit scripture to memory.

Using multiple translations can in some ways serve like studying commentaries would, only like commentaries, you will get a number of different takes on certain verses, leaving you to have to select which one is correct. This is what led me to study the languages themselves.

Very sound advice!

 

[CharismaticLady]

the missing is not a condition, but a description, that’s if it is even origional, considering the same words are used a few verses after

The problem with deleting those crucial words, are the false doctrines of demons believing in Jesus as your Savior with no condemnation for the sins you keep committing. But you are right. They are without excuse as the message is repeated. Too bad Martin Luther didn't keep reading. "Even if you were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, they wouldn't separate you from God."

 

[marks]

the missing is not a condition, but a description, that’s if it is even origional, considering the same words are used a few verses after

Just so.

"There is THEREFORE now no condemnation . . ."

The condition is of course preceeding "therefore".

Simplicity itself!



Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Just so.

"There is THEREFORE now no condemnation . . ."

The condition is of course preceeding "therefore".

Simplicity itself!



Much love!

The "condition" is Jesus. Romans 7:25. What does Jesus give us instead of the Law? The Spirit. If you don't have the Spirit, you don't belong to Christ.

 

[Mayflower]

Let's put it this way. I got saved on the Living Bible (a paraphrase, like The Message Bible), I was raised spiritually, i.e. by the Lord, on the King James Bible, and I entered into spiritual maturity through study of the original languages. The idea if you are in the "being raised" stage is to really read a Bible (a genuine transition, like NKJV) that will help you remember verses and passages, preferably one with good cross-referencing in it, so you can find where similar things are said in other verses. KJV bibles are known for this. The NASB and NIV would be good as well, IMO, so long as you stuck with one of them primarily. Again, this is just my suggestion. The idea is that you are trying to commit scripture to memory.

Using multiple translations can in some ways serve like studying commentaries would, only like commentaries, you will get a number of different takes on certain verses, leaving you to have to select which one is correct. This is what led me to study the languages themselves.

So as for choosing a translation, i.e. a genuine translation, pray about it, and then maybe the Lord will lead you on what to decide. But again, I would suggest one with cross-referencing.

Best I can do. For all of us it's a journey.

I can quote pretty much 500 or so scriptures NASB... my church uses the Message, NIV, TLB, NCV...just shows the same scripture in multiple word for thought translations with the word for word on paper. I think that is amazing. The Msssage got me back into just enjoying Bible reading again. Most churches Ive grown up in were KJV only. I have a solid foundation. But getting the head to the heart is how transformation and renewal of the mind comes about. We just need to renew our minds in the Word of God. My prayer is that God shows me the best way to study His Word to grow even deeper in Him. I am sold out for Jesus, but I didnt realize how far I drifted from personal study and devotion. Like waking up in a way. Bigger fire in my soul lately

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The problem with deleting those crucial words, are the false doctrines of demons believing in Jesus as your Savior with no condemnation for the sins you keep committing. But you are right. They are without excuse as the message is repeated. Too bad Martin Luther didn't keep reading. "Even if you were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day, they wouldn't separate you from God."

I forgot, you think Jesus did not pay for all sins, you think although we can pay for our past sins, we somehow can pay for future.

as I said I did not delete them they are descriptive, gods people do that, non believers do not, it fits with John who said whoever sins has never seen or known God. Whoever is born of God does not live in sin

 

[DNB]

I didn't think this fit in Bible study. But I did want to open a thread to discuss the differences in translations of word for word versus word for thought Bibles, and how to identify when the meaning is changed. I believe the best translation is the one a person applies. But at the same time, it is also a slow fade.

My thing with KJV, is I was raised on it, and I do find it accurate in teaching. My thought though, is even when the people spoke in Hebrew and Greek, it didn't mean "Thee and Thou." It was translated first in the 1600s. I personally like NASB as a good Word for Word translation.

If the Bible changes in meaning though, from even these Word for Words, I would really like some examples and to learn how to identify these things. I like to use multiple translations, because I do not know Greek and Hebrew. I think the Bible translating the Bible is better then commentaries, but only if the same message is being put across. I love to just read The Message translation. It really brings context to passages even if it is just the thought rather then the exact translated Word.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of, as a regular practice, using multiple versions, I even read it in French for the same purpose. But, as HiddenInHim said, you are now the textual critic, ...which is fine, but it is a concession to learning the original languages.
With the first principle in mind, I bought an 8 version parallel Bible, this was a great study resource.

And, recently, I bought the NIV chronological Bible, ...people, this is an indispensable tool. Not only is it advantageous primarily due to the harmonization aspect of it, but it is filled with historical and explanatory notes in between the events, as they happen. Because of this though, the reading is at least twice as long, but the awareness, understanding and retention are four-fold. I wish that I had this 30 years ago!

 

[marks]

I can quote pretty much 500 or so scriptures NASB... my church uses the Message, NIV, TLB, NCV...just shows the same scripture in multiple word for thought translations with the word for word on paper. I think that is amazing. The Msssage got me back into just enjoying Bible reading again. Most churches Ive grown up in were KJV only. I have a solid foundation. But getting the head to the heart is how transformation and renewal of the mind comes about. We just need to renew our minds in the Word of God. My prayer is that God shows me the best way to study His Word to grow even deeper in Him. I am sold out for Jesus, but I didnt realize how far I drifted from personal study and devotion. Like waking up in a way. Bigger fire in my soul lately

It was the NLT that did the same for me when I first discovered it. Renewed my excitement in the Bible!

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It was the NLT that did the same for me when I first discovered it. Renewed my excitement in the Bible!

Much love!

Have to be careful with that translation (new living), it is easy to read but full of errors, we tried to teach with it but kept having to go to NASB and Greek to correct the errors.

 

[marks]

Have to be careful with that translation (new living), it is easy to read but full of errors, we tried to teach with it but kept having to go to NASB and Greek to correct the errors.

It was good for me for that time. I definitely agree that it's best in conjuction with a word for word literal translation, the NASB or KJV would be my first picks.

One thing, the NLT really helped me sort out some of Paul's more difficult passages, such as Romans 8, so that I could go back to the KJV et al, with a better sense of the flow of the passage.

And Romans 8 makes a great example of the limitations of the NLT, as you cannot find a good bit of the detail in that part the NLT as appears on the Greek, or other more literal translations.

I'm one of those who will read the KJV along with an interlinear, or read the interlinear along with Holman, or some such.

Much love!

 

[Mayflower]

@Mayflower
By the time God drew me to Him I already had my degree with a major in Spanish and a minor in German [1971] as well as being married with two toddlers in tow. At the age of 32 I began reading the Bible for the first time in my life. I had never even owned one before. I really got into it, the KJV, of course as that the only they used in the UPC [Oneness Jesus Only group].

Working for Uncle Sam I met an Episcopalian brother in the Lord who had a degree in Russian. We worked the same job for Social Security but as side jobs both of us were also official translators for SSA [Social Security Administration]. We used to get into lengthy and thoroughly enjoyable Bible discussions during our breaks. He was reading the Bible in Russian as well as English and asked me about my Spanish and German. We were working together at the huge new SSA Program Center in Richmond, CA. at the time.

I don't remember the occasion, but that brother in Christ went to a bookstore in San Francisco [across the Bay from us] and bought me two new Bibles, one in Spanish, the Casiodoro de Reina (1569) Revised by Valera (1602) translation and the other an original Martin Luther translation in German. I received those on June 28, 1978 and began reading the Bible from that time in 3 languages. By then my German especially was very rusty as translating mostly German birth and marriage certificates does not compare with reading a Bible. [I still have those two well worn old Bibles, but I don't read from them anymore.]

A lot of water under the bridge but now I read three Bibles regularly, which really gives me a different perspective with difficult passages.

@marks mentioned the "thees" and "thous" of the KJV as corresponding more directly to what one would find in the original Greek of the Bible. I am sure he is correct. The grammatical usages in both Spanish and German are much closer to the KJV than to any modern English Bible. The German more so than the Spanish! My German and Spanish versions were both in use prior to 1611 the date of the KJV.

While I have lots of other English Bibles for reference I would not ever change my primary one from the KJV. The 3 languages for me complement each other. I always have a second Bible open when I am reading from any one of the three. I rotate daily which one is primary. I always have handy Spanish and German dictionaries as well as a concordance and lexicon during my morning reading and prayer time. When I come across an apparent discrepancy or difference in meaning I can and do check the other two Bibles to see how the idea is expressed there. I annotate all of my Bibles regularly in pencil and cross refer verses in them to one another as well as other verses in the same Bible.

When do we stop growing closer to God? While we still have time the answer should be, I believe: Never!

I do strongly recommend for anyone who can... to read the Bible in a language other than English. I tried once getting in the original languages myself, but I was already old and set in my ways. This old dog can learn new tricks but the process is much slower than it used to be so I soon gave up on the Hebrew and Greek. For those who can, make use such knowledge... but never depend on what your brain can do above what God can do in your heart. I strayed away from that one time and it cost me a lot...

Thanks for your testimony Amadeus. Very interesting and informative. I know a bit of Spanish enough to maybe pick out some of one....but if there is any language Id like to learn to read, it is Greek/Hebrew. I love what you said about not depending on the brain as much as what God can do in your heart. Id like to think I live the Word a lot more then I understand in a Doctorate sort of way. Id like to know/understand on a deeper level also though.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I think that the best Greek and Hebrew scholars to compile a translation of the Bible would be those who are not Christians, and therefore not biased according to a particular theology. They would be totally professional and work to achieve the highest standard of accuracy. They wouldn't attempt to put a theological interpretation on an obscure and difficult to understand passage of Scripture. They would translate it as it is.

The trouble is that religious translators would have their preconceived theological bias, and this is seen in some Bible translations. The Message Bible, Good News For Modern Man, and The Living Bible are paraphrases and contain heavy bias toward the theological views of those who compiled them. The New World translation has been edited to comply with JW doctrine. The NIV is a modern translation heavily influenced by Liberal Modernists and therefore much care has to be taken with it. Schofield was a Cessationist, and therefore his translation would have marginal notes that support that doctrine.

 

[Mayflower]

I think whatever version you read, you're going to have to switch versions every once in a while. I don't think there is anything wrong with the AMP but someone else might know something I don't. The most important thing, IMO, is cross referencing, and having a concordance. Sometimes looking at the word provided gives a deeper meaning.

If you go to Free eBooks | Project Gutenberg you might find some really good resources there. It just gives you a different understanding on things you wouldn't have thought of yourself. I prefer the historical books because they lean so much towards Christ. (But since you're being busy mommy with little ones it would probably be something you get to do every once in a while, but you can transfer them to Kindle if you have one.) I recommend the Martin Luther and especially Andrew Murray if you want a deep, deep Bible Study.

Plus you might run across Luther's ranting about his frustrations towards the pope in his commentaries... and they're kind of humorous.

Lots of Christian stories on there for kids, too. Good for bedtime reading. Though maybe check them out first if you do that, because some can be a bit dark. (They weren't as protective back then when it came to that stuff.)

@Mayflower Your baby is adorable. Thought your little girl might like to see my kitty. (Your older child... Realized I needed to clarify that... probably came up confusing.) After I witnessed the "incident" I said, "God it's been less than ten minutes, I know you have time to do this, if you're going to do it, let it be only one and make it a white one that will love me."

I ended up with one and named her Ayn because the name site said the Finnish version meant "The only one." (I'm 1/3rd Finnish .. Hence my weird name.) The Hebrew version means " "He (God) has favored me."

AWWWWWW

 

[Mayflower]

One thing on this . . . Greek uses plural and singular pronouns, while modern English does not. In the KJV, Thee and Thou translate the Greek "plural you", while You and Your translate the singular Greek.

Much love!

Wow. I feel there is an important point here, but I am a bit lost. What do you mean by "plural you" . Like more then one, like showing the Trinity as "I?"

 

[dev553344]

I didn't think this fit in Bible study. But I did want to open a thread to discuss the differences in translations of word for word versus word for thought Bibles, and how to identify when the meaning is changed. I believe the best translation is the one a person applies. But at the same time, it is also a slow fade.

My thing with KJV, is I was raised on it, and I do find it accurate in teaching. My thought though, is even when the people spoke in Hebrew and Greek, it didn't mean "Thee and Thou." It was translated first in the 1600s. I personally like NASB as a good Word for Word translation.

If the Bible changes in meaning though, from even these Word for Words, I would really like some examples and to learn how to identify these things. I like to use multiple translations, because I do not know Greek and Hebrew. I think the Bible translating the Bible is better then commentaries, but only if the same message is being put across. I love to just read The Message translation. It really brings context to passages even if it is just the thought rather then the exact translated Word.

Thoughts?

I'm terrible at translation stuff and really don't care to try and re-invent the wheel by trying to translate it myself. But I always refer to the King James bible or New King James.

 

[Mayflower]

Perhaps this may from PC Study Bible may help: -

View attachment 13400

Where the <XXXX> numbers represent the Greek Root words for the particular source Greek Texts and <9999> indicates that the Greek text is missing from the primary source Greek text for the translation.

What is of concern to me with respect to our English Translations is where wrong English words are used for a particular Greek word such that the context of the translated text is very different to the Source text being translated.

One such English word is the word, "earthquake," from the Greek Root word <G4578> which I believe is better understood if the English word "turmoil" is used instead.

Here is a list of where the <G4578> is found in the New testament and where the word "turmoil" would be better in our English translations: -

View attachment 13401

Here is the interlinear of Matthew 27:54: -

View attachment 13402

When we read the Matthew account of Jesus dying, we read of the earthquake in verse 51, which torn the veil in the temple from top to bottom, but the centurion was watching the turmoil in the people in and around Jerusalem because of all the events that happened on that day.

Matthew 27:45-54: - Jesus Dies on the Cross
(Mark 15:33-41; Luke 23:44-49; John 19:28-30)

45 Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!" 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.

49 The rest said, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him."

50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"​

An error introduced into our English Translations is multiplied a number of times and gives the wrong impression of the actual context of the Source language documents.

Shalom

Yeh pretty much lost honestly. Will have to read this several times. I am trying to point this out more to focus in on things, even if it means slowing down a bit.