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Featured Biblical Foreknowledge

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Anthony D'Arienzo, Jul 22, 2019.

  1. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Here us the difference, @Grailhunter :

    The pups (Calvinist as a religion) hold Calvinism as their gospel.

    Men are totally depraved (no gospel here).
    The Father uncolditionally chooses (no gospel here)
    Christ died to save the elect (close, but no actual gospel here)
    God's grace prevails (again, no gospel)
    Those who are saved will remain so (no gospel).

    Calvinism as a gospel is another gospel - a Christ-less gospel, and a false religion.

    But Calvinism as an explanation of God's activity of redemption is an understanding of this work specifically targeting divine providence in salvation. It is an understanding, not the gospel itself.

    And there are several understandings within this category. John Calvin defined "foreknowledge" as God knowing beforehand. Edwardian Calvinism has divine omniscience at its base
     
  2. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    John Caldwell,
    Now Gh, see it is happening again. This statement does not answer the question.
    Did God just know or...Did God plan decree and purpose what would come to pass?
    Here is how real Calvinists answer;from the 1689;
    Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
    ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
    ( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
    ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

    4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
    ( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

    5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
    ( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

    6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
    ( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

    [QUOTE]This is saying God knew what would
    It it will happen a set way (in accord with Hod's foreknowledge) then it is predestined by definition
    .[/QUOTE]

    This is not the biblical answer, but this poster is free to offer it.


    This is one foot in and one foot out,do the hokey pokey,lol
    God knows because He planned and purposed it


    9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

    Calvinists do not say or teach this. this is what I mean by a fifth column.The robot and puppet arguments are used primarily to attack Biblical Calvinism

    In other words...you will not get a Calvinist answer from JonC, you will get an answer, yes, but not one that Calvinists would give,
     
  3. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    Do you know what providence means?
     
  4. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    1aoften capitalized : divine guidance or care
    bcapitalized : God conceived as the power sustaining and guiding human destiny.

    Definition of PROVIDENCE

    Colossians 1:16-17
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Proverbs 16:9
    The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
     
  5. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    People like to use big words but most the time they don't know what they mean. Providence is a good description of God's interaction in our lives. It has nothing to do with predestination. And God's does not have favorites. No elite in the working principles of Christianity. The scriptures say many things like you have to hate your father and your mother to be a disciple of Christ....but is that a thought or a doctrine? Paul said it was better not to touch a woman...how do you think that would have turned out? Christ said only few would find the way....few....probably full by now.
     
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  6. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Almost. When I got in I noticed a few seats in the nose bleed section.
     
  7. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    John Caldwell,

    Here comes the attack,lol

    This is an attack on real Cals....but hey, everyone has an opinion.

    The teaching of biblical Calvinism is the scripturally teaching to bring the whole man to the whole Christ,
    The teaching of the T...is to show men their need of a Saviour. It is not a stand alone but part of the whole truth. Calvinists know this.
    JonC does not.



    Election is a great blessing to the elect sheep. The apostle Paul burst out in Eph1 and praised God for it
    To say there is no gospel here is ludicrous;
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    For anyone to suggest no gospel here is Spiritually blind.


    No good news in the accomplishment of redemption??? Wow...somebody throw in the towel for JonC....wow this is shocking, The Work of the Cross is not good news:eek::eek::eek:o_O

    [QUOTE]God's grace prevails (again, no gospel)[/QUOTE]

    Again, God saves a multitude and savingly draws them to Jesus in love....and you suggest no gospel here....good to see who you are JonC

    God securing His people so none are lost, He is not willing that any perish...is not good news to you???
    I do not want anything to do with your version of things.


    Even the non Cals here on this board can see how foolish this agenda you have is. In trying to attack bible truth , you make radical unbiblical ideas you view...Consider your ways.

     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  8. Grailhunter

    Grailhunter Well-Known Member

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    lol
     
  9. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    This reminds me - when my son was five years old I taught him "anthropomorphism" and sent him to have a conversation about trees waving with his grandmother.

    When I was in graduate school I read about every book with a dictionary by my side. I am not the sharpest tool, but a certain amont of dullness aids in skill development. Give me a dictionary and a calculator and I can survive any assessment (as long as there is no test).
     
  10. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Honestly John, I hear you say that you're a Calvinist but... you don't sound like one at all.
     
  11. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Again.. if you're taking the Calvinist point of view: isn't a JW a JW because God created him that way and wills him to be that way?
     
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  12. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    No.
    A jw is a jw because of sin from the fall.
    While they are alive they have he posibility of being saved by the real Jesus.
     
  13. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    You are correct Jane Doe, 22. It is just to confuse the real issues.
    Notice how far away he has drifted?
    He can believe what he wants as it is a free country, but it is not what we believe, not even close .
    Now you and others can see why this dispute has gone on for so long here.
    I am glad you and others can see it.
    He has read many books, so he can help with some things.
    However when he attempts to say there is no gospel in the 5 points he reveals his real agenda.
    Grailhunter, enoch,Gg, and others might not like my answers, but they are truthful and represent the actual teaching as best as I can
    I am still learning, but will remain faithful even if people oppose it from"within" or without.
     
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  14. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Jane,

    I have fought the label, and would just as soon not have it. So that suits me as well.

    On another forum it was decided by the administration and posted on the forum that affirming the five points, to include Edwardian Calvinism, equated to Calvinism insofar as the board was concerned. I got in the habit of using the short cut. But every group is different.

    My claim that I was not a Calvinist while affirming the five points was that my reasoning is different. I do not believe Calvin was justified in contextualizing redemption as a legal transaction. And many believe Edwardian Calvinism (because of the omniscience base) to be no Calvinism at all.

    Technically I cannot be a Calvinist because I am a Baptist (infant baptism was also affirmed in the Canons of Dort).

    I am a Christian, and that is really the only title I want. I enjoy discussing my views, and to be honest I do not want to be associated with an element on these boards.

    My use of "Calvinism" was a carry over from another board which used the word to describe certain ideas within a Baptist context. It probably does not apply on a broader forum such as this.

    I lean more to traditional Christianity than to Reformed Theology so you are right. It is better to stick with "Christian" and just discuss positions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
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  15. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    On the other forum, nothing was decided, lol...JonC declared his view is what would be the acceptable view,lol.
    This discussion could not have taken place because he deletes those who differ from him. In this thread, he calls them, the clique, or the group.
    He does not want to be associated with a
    an "element" on these boards...yes there he has tried to silence each and every one.
    All views should be heard as long as they are not profane or blasphemous .
    I will defend his right to his views. I will defend the right of others to answer and offer correction also.
    Nice and simple.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  16. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    All of these labels are subjective because ideas have spread out from its origin and have become something else.

    For example, dispensationalism was originally a Calvinistic idea. It spread outside of Calvinism. Arminianism was for decades a view within orthodox Calvinism. Amyraldianism was for over a century an orthodox view within Calvinism.

    What some call “Calvinism” is a mutation of the Canons of Dort. It is some (not all) of its conclusions divorced from Calvinism.

    As far as I can see, no Calvinists (no real Calvinists) have posted on this thread. @Anthony D'Arienzo and @SovereignGrace are not Calvinists. They are Baptists who affirm bits and pieces of the Calvinist answer to the five articles of Remonstrance. Reformed Baptist is an amalgamation of theologies. They hold a position that did not exist within Christianity for the first sixteen centuries of the existence of the Church.

    I believe that penal substitution is correct, but that it does not encompass the entirety of the Atonement. Calvinism is based on Penal Substitution Theory which did not exist until the Reformation and the re-working of Aquinas' theory held by the Roman Catholic Church (a shift from a substitution based on merit to a legal transaction based on debt). But I do believe that God is in control of everything, that God works out everything in accordance to His plans. And I can affirm the ends of the five points. But this is not, as @Jane_Doe22 points out, Calvinism.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  17. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Okay...whatever JonC....let it go.
    No one is buying what you are selling.
    Feel free to voice your strange opinions, that is just wonderful.
    I do not put anyone on ignore because you can not interact with someone on ignore.
    I would not delete or edit your comments as it is better to let them speak for themselves. ...everyone can see now.
     
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  18. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    Adam didn't create the JW. Neither did the JW himself (because he lacks any will, according to Calvinism).
    Neither can the JW choose to come to the "real Jesus" (because he lacks any will). trying to convince him to do so seems completely contradictory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2019
  19. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    So you are an "Edwardian Calvinist"? What do you mean by that?

    (To state the obvious, of course you are a Christian. I'm just trying to get a better grasp of the more detailed picture. I majorly appreciate your responses here, they show thought).
     
  20. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I would not call me an Edwardian Calvinist, but the way that I understand predestination is related to that theology (Jonathan Edwards).

    Edward's argument was that if God is omniscient then everything is predestined to occur as God knows (from eternity past) that they will unfold. In a sense, our future is history to God. By the act of creation God has predetermined (or decreed) that all will actually occur as God has known it would occur.

    This is why many Calvinists believe that Edwardian Calvinism is closer to Arminianism than it is to Calvinism (I tend to agree with that assessment).

    The difference is where John Calvin put forward that God knows all because God has decreed all, I do not think that we can truly know the mind of God. Edward's presentation was that at a minimum all things are predestined based on foreknowledge and beyond this is nothing but speculation.
     
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