Biblical Foreknowledge

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John Caldwell

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Isn't 'He by Himself purged our sins' (Hebrews 1) penal substitution? (leaving aside Calvinist labels).
Penal substitution , perhaps. Not Penal Substitution Theory (not God punishing Christ with our punishment to satisfy the demands of justice which was Calvin's ...who was a lawyer - contextulization).
 
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GodsGrace

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Most evangelucals hold positions that originated with Calvinism (like Penal Substitution Theory). These positions make more sense in Calvinism just like "calvinism" (the 5 points) makes more sense within the Presbyterian faith. People start seeing the flaws and are searching.

This is why there has been a growing movemrnt within Calvinism to reform it and bring it closer to a biblical standing.

I attribute the reason to the availability of resources.
Yes. Although I do look to the ECFs, we DO have more resources available to us today and many more manuscripts. (although nothing major has changed).

The penal substitution theory makes God sound like a sacrifice god that is wrathful toward man-kind.

There are so many other theories that make sense..although, IMO, no one theory covers it all.

This is a site I like for this:
I wouldn't be able to pick just one...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison
 

John Caldwell

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lol this is funny. Getting you to commit to something is like nailing jello to a wall!
I am commiting to predestination while affirming we freely choose.

I am actually surprised the "calvinists" (@Anthony D'Arienzo and the like) here are unwilling to affirm that we choose freely while at the same time believing salvation is God's work as it ia a basic Reformed belief. (I suspect the disagreement is less than honest to the actual comment and more to a "campish" mentality....but with their philosophy who knows).
 
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John Caldwell

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I must be fuzzy headed, but I don't follow you.

My instinct is simply to follow Scripture.
Yes, please follow Scripture. I am not seeking disciples.

My comment is directed to the fact that nowhere in Scripture is God wrathful to Christ (Christ did not experience God's wrath when He experienced what would be wrath to us). God is faithful and it is this faithfulness we see at the cross.
 

Enoch111

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What would have happened IF Mary had said NO?
God would have found another young woman who would qualify.

There is no need to complicate matters, or bring in the false Catholic legends about Mary. God already knew that Mary would be perfectly willing to be the mother of Jesus of Nazareth BEFORE He created the world!

God already knew that Jesus would be the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world BEFORE He created the world!

This is all a part of divine foreknowledge -- God knows the end from the beginning.
 

Jane_Doe22

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You are welcome. I am sorry it was so poorly articulated.
When convey complex ideas like beliefs, articulation always leaves something to be desired. What makes up a lot of the difference is a person's willingness to answer questions another person is actually asking and explain things. And I give you points for that.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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God would have found another young woman who would qualify.

There is no need to complicate matters, or bring in the false Catholic legends about Mary. God already knew that Mary would be perfectly willing to be the mother of Jesus of Nazareth BEFORE He created the world!

God already knew that Jesus would be the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world BEFORE He created the world!

This is all a part of divine foreknowledge -- God knows the end from the beginning.
No....that is omniscience.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Are you REALLY posting Joshua to me?
Incredible.
Guess you don't read any of my posts.

What would have happened IF Mary had said NO?
Speaking from the non-Calvinist viewpoint:
God knows what we are going to do (everyone agrees on that). He knew Mary would say yes and be willing. But he didn't force or manipulate such an outcome. It was her own free choice.
 

John Caldwell

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When convey complex ideas like beliefs, articulation always leaves something to be desired. What makes up a lot of the difference is a person's willingness to answer questions another person is actually asking and explain things. And I give you points for that.
It probably would have been easier if I just said I do not believe our choices are ever uninfluenced (whether by experience, other people, tradition or God). :)
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Everyone agrees that God is omniscient and knows what's going to happen. That's not really a point of debate.
The more common point of debate is *how* it happens.
The poster confused omniscience ...with biblical foreknowledge.
They are different.
How it happens was answered by the 1689 Confession of faith quoted.
It is clearly revealed in scripture .
They explain the work of the trinity in taking dead sinners from death to life and making them willing. Did you not read that post?
 

Jane_Doe22

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It probably would have been easier if I just said I do not believe our choices are ever uninfluenced (whether by experience, other people, tradition or God). :)
Speaking just from my limited understanding of what you seem to believe:
The influence of non-God things is rather beside the point. What the big point is God specifically arranging events so that person X does Y, akin to you throwing the ball so your dog fetches.
 

Jane_Doe22

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The poster confused omniscience ...with biblical foreknowledge.
They are different.
How it happens was answered by the 1689 Confession of faith quoted.
It is clearly revealed in scripture .
They explain the work of the trinity in taking dead sinners from death to life and making them willing. Did you not read that post?
As I've said before, I'm just asking questions so I can better understand what other people believe and spend an afternoon pleasently chatting about God.
I'm not here to discover "what's biblical" or "what's True". I turn to God and scripture for that, not forum threads.
 
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Grailhunter

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I am commiting to predestination while affirming we freely choose.

I am actually surprised the "calvinists" (@Anthony D'Arienzo and the like) here are unwilling to affirm that we choose freely while at the same time believing salvation is God's work as it ia a basic Reformed belief. (I suspect the disagreement is less than honest to the actual comment and more to a "campish" mentality....but with their philosophy who knows).
just funny
 
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John Caldwell

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Speaking just from my limited understanding of what you seem to believe:
The influence of non-God things is rather beside the point. What the big point is God specifically arranging events so that person X does Y, akin to you throwing the ball so your dog fetches.
I don't know the big point (except that God causes all things to work for the good). Maybe the big point was that I understand God is sovereign in all things yet we freely decide. If the future depends on my choices apart from providence I should never decide as I cannot see the future. If my choices do not matter then I have no responsibility. But if my choices matter AND God is in control then I can act trusting in God for the outcome.

As Scripture says - The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
 
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John Caldwell

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Speaking from the non-Calvinist viewpoint:
God knows what we are going to do (everyone agrees on that). He knew Mary would say yes and be willing. But he didn't force or manipulate such an outcome. It was her own free choice.
I think the first thing we have to do is realize we are dealing with philosophy. We are trying to know about God "through the back door" rather than through Christ - so it is more philosophy than theology (as is Calvinism).

If God knew and made his plans on what he knew then we have a problem of process. God is now looking, planning, and deciding (which is clairvoyance....peering into the future....not omniscience).

All sides have similar things that can be picked apart because we are dealing with human wisdom anout God rather than what God has actually revealed.

I see this as a way to understand one another - not to persuade the other to our philosophical view.

If you want divine truth then we have Christ. Don't look to Calvinism but to Scripture. We can have divine truth (the "deep" things of scripture) regardless of our theology.
 
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