Biblical Foreknowledge

[John Caldwell]

This is what James White offered:

"To be perfectly honest with you over the past number of years I've become pretty sick and tired of the Calvinist club...I don't even want to be part of this 'club'....I find it grossly inconsistent that those who claim to embrace this theology could at the same time be arrogant, ungracious, unloving, unkind,and constantly drawing their swords and lopping people's Arminian ears off just for the bloodsport of it. Those of you on Facebook and Twitter and chat rooms and things like that to call yourself Calvinist, if you can't start acting with grace get back in your cage please for the good of the rest of us and for the good of everybody"

What White observes here is the result of a philosophy divorced from Calvinism and adopted as the core of a system of belief. This is why it is rare to find a gracious "calvinist" outside of his or her own environment. The philosophy does not stand up on its own.

I think that we can discuss things that are brought up by Calvinistic philosophy (it is a Christian philosophy, but a philosophy nonetheless). There are no "real Calvinists" discussing the topic here that I know of. This is not a negative (I appreciate the works of Calvinists like R.C. Sproul and Tim Keller, but I do not agree with their theology as a whole).

What we often deal with and call "Calvinism" is the philosophy divorced from Calvinism (a part of the Canons of Dort summarized as the Five Points or TULIP and that diluted or adulterated to be incorporated into various theologies. No Calvinist has ever practiced believers baptism, for example, because Reformed baptism is not symbolic of belief but rather of a covenant acceptance into the community of faith (and this is evidenced in the Canons of Dort).

 

[GodsGrace]

My answer (to all of the verses here) is that we may hold different views of what it means to be saved (insofar as this question goes).

I would view the one in whom the Word is received and does not take root, or sprouts and then is destroyed, or who believes gladly and the worries of life take over, or turns back, etc. as never having been saved.

In other words, when I look at “saved” I mean that final state. I may believe today, but if that belief does not result in the gifting of eternal life then I am not saved.

Those who are righteous in Christ will go away into eternal life on “that Day” (Matthew 25; John 5:29). What we have now is a hope which is in Christ. Our knowledge today is based in that Hope.

I can agree with your explanation.
Our hope is for eternal life....
It is not that we have attained it now, for a thing hoped for is not received yet.

I'm not going to argue this except to say this.

1. Jesus said in Luke 8:13 that the person was saved [FOR A WHILE],,,the BELIEF WAS TEMPORARY, and then the person FELL AWAY. That sounds like becoming lost after being saved.

2. The reason I think it's important to understand that becoming lost again is because of the OSAS belief. I'm told sometimes, that a person could so what he want to once having believed and never become lost again.

This cannot be true since Revelation tells us that nothing unclean will enter into heaven.

I agree that we have to believe in our final state.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not getting many responses for other reasons.
I am an ex catholic and know the core teaching. I had my St.Josephs missal and my rosary beads and scapular

Believe me, that does not make you a catholic.
Or you would not have posted such an incorrect doctrine of that church.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Believe me, that does not make you a catholic.
Or you would not have posted such an incorrect doctrine of that church.

My christening and confirmation does not count? I even wore the white suit with white bucks as shoes?? I ate the wafer a few times?
I think one might still be stuck on the roof of my mouth,lol

 

[John Caldwell]

Believe me, that does not make you a catholic.
Or you would not have posted such an incorrect doctrine of that church.

Very often people do not understand the "beliefs" they hold. Conversations frequently bear this out. Unfortunately many hold religious ideas a tradition (either passed down tradition or one into which they decided to enter). I can think of a few people who have moved from Catholic to Baptist and vise versa simply picking a tradition they like. The issue is not the religion or denomination but the heart. Religion simply does not save a person. In fact, often a person is worse for it. Christ saves (Christ saves the Baptist, the Catholic, the Calvinist and the atheist all the same).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

John Caldwell,
[Very often people do not understand the "beliefs" they hold. ]

Yes... you still cannot give it up.We saw last night that you do not understand the doctrines of grace, denying the gospel is in any of it.
That is Classic. Your post makes Charles Finney look good.
Why not go away and post about something you know about, rather than these veiled insidious comments.
Everyone is onto you now.
It is out in the Open. Stop it JonC...give it a rest.
You tried but failed once again

 

[John Caldwell]

The *how* here is very important though.
Did it happen XYZ because God forced it to be that way?
Or did a mortal act (of their own choosing) to make XYZ happen?

It is both. By the act of creation God determined all would actually happen as God know it would. We choose of our own will (man makes his plans, God directs his steps).

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I was talking about, @GodsGrace ,


"To be perfectly honest with you over the past number of years I've become pretty sick and tired of the Calvinist club...I don't even want to be part of this 'club'....I find it grossly inconsistent that those who claim to embrace this theology could at the same time be arrogant, ungracious, unloving, unkind,and constantly drawing their swords and lopping people's Arminian ears off just for the bloodsport of it. Those of you on Facebook and Twitter and chat rooms and things like that to call yourself Calvinist, if you can't start acting with grace get back in your cage please for the good of the rest of us and for the good of everybody"

I watched it.
I couldn't agree more with what he said.
I learned way back in jr. High School that one can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

A person stops listening when he's insulted or demeaned.
I find James White to be super intelligent and he properly represents other faiths....he has never said anything wrong about catholicsim--one faith I do know about...so I can only assume he knows all of those he debates about with reps of those faiths.

WHY are some calvinists so arrogant is my question.
I think it's for the same reason that some Catholics are.
One grows up hearing that the CC is the one true church...it kind of makes a person look down at all other denominations.

One finds out that GOD has CHOSEN him...It kind of makes a
person look down at all others denominations.

But why are the younger folk so interested in calvinism?
Could it be because they feel like a lucky chosen one and it removes all
responsibility from them?

 

[GodsGrace]

When Mary received that message, God already knew in advance (foreknowledge) that she would be ready, willing, and able. But there was no compulsion whatsoever. She could have also refused to be involved. But it was her desire to please God. There is always a choice.

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15)

Are you REALLY posting Joshua to me?
Incredible.
Guess you don't read any of my posts.

What would have happened IF Mary had said NO?

THIS is the mystery, E.
God's SOVEREIGNTY and
Man's FREE WILL.

How do the two work together?

The Catholic theologians teach that Mary was born without original sin.
At what point of her birth did she NOT have original sin?

At conception?
At the embyonic stage?
At the fetus stage?
Immediately after birth?
When Gabriel went to speak to you to ADVISE her that she would be the Mother of the awaited Messiah?

So God knew she would say YES, you say.
So WHAT made her say yes?

 

[John Caldwell]

But why are the younger folk so interested in calvinism?

Most evangelucals hold positions that originated with Calvinism (like Penal Substitution Theory). These positions make more sense in Calvinism just like "calvinism" (the 5 points) makes more sense within the Presbyterian faith. People start seeing the flaws and are searching.

This is why there has been a growing movemrnt within Calvinism to reform it and bring it closer to a biblical standing.

I attribute the reason to the availability of resources.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I would not call me an Edwardian Calvinist, but the way that I understand predestination is related to that theology (Jonathan Edwards).

Edward's argument was that if God is omniscient then everything is predestined to occur as God knows (from eternity past) that they will unfold. In a sense, our future is history to God. By the act of creation God has predetermined (or decreed) that all will actually occur as God has known it would occur.

This is why many Calvinists believe that Edwardian Calvinism is closer to Arminianism than it is to Calvinism (I tend to agree with that assessment).

The difference is where John Calvin put forward that God knows all because God has decreed all, I do not think that we can truly know the mind of God. Edward's presentation was that at a minimum all things are predestined based on foreknowledge and beyond this is nothing but speculation.

A you using the word "predestined" here to mean:
A) God knows that this is what is going to happen. No forcing or manipulation, people have will.
B) God is going to force this to happen. No will for anyone else.
C) _____________________

It is both. By the act of creation God determined all would actually happen as God know it would. We choose of our own will (man makes his plans, God directs his steps).

You can't have both here: they are opposites. One man has will (God permits), one he does not (God forces all).

 

[John Caldwell]

A you using the word "predestined" here to mean:
A) God knows that this is what is going to happen. No forcing or manipulation, people have will.
B) God is going to force this to happen. No will for anyone else.
C) _____________________


You can't have both here: they are opposites. One man has will (God permits), one he does not (God forces all).

Not "forcing".

Knowing my dog will run if I throw the ball, I throw the ball. Did cause my dog to run? Yes. I force my dog to run? No.

Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will.

Knowing what will occur God created.

 

[GodsGrace]

My christening and confirmation does not count? I even wore the white suit with white bucks as shoes?? I ate the wafer a few times?
I think one might still be stuck on the roof of my mouth,lol

I don't blame you.
It's the fault of the CC.
It's trying to catch up but it waited a bit too long.
Most catholics DO NOT know their doctrine.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not "forcing".

Knowing my dog will run if I throw the ball, I throw the ball. Did cause my dog to run? Yes. I force my dog to run? No.

Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will.

Knowing what will occur God created.

lol this is funny. Getting you to commit to something is like nailing jello to a wall!

 

[GodsGrace]

Very often people do not understand the "beliefs" they hold. Conversations frequently bear this out. Unfortunately many hold religious ideas a tradition (either passed down tradition or one into which they decided to enter). I can think of a few people who have moved from Catholic to Baptist and vise versa simply picking a tradition they like. The issue is not the religion or denomination but the heart. Religion simply does not save a person. In fact, often a person is worse for it. Christ saves (Christ saves the Baptist, the Catholic, the Calvinist and the atheist all the same).

Agreed.
I DO believe that it would be a good idea to at least KNOW the doctrine of one's faith or denomination I should say.

I left the CC and had to learn about the doctrine of THAT church and the one I went to.

And I mean learn...not just what some THINK about it.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Not "forcing".

Knowing my dog will run if I throw the ball, I throw the ball. Did cause my dog to run? Yes. I force my dog to run? No.

Everything is predestined to occur as God knows it will.

Knowing what will occur God created.

That would be called manipulation and ultimately puppeteering. Which I thought you didn't believe in.
(No judgement here, either way. I'm just trying to understand what your beliefs are).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

lol this is funny. Getting you to commit to something is like nailing jello to a wall!

Winner...lol
That is why he is so loveable

 

[farouk]

Most evangelucals hold positions that originated with Calvinism (like Penal Substitution Theory). These positions make more sense in Calvinism just like "calvinism" (the 5 points) makes more sense within the Presbyterian faith. People start seeing the flaws and are searching.

This is why there has been a growing movemrnt within Calvinism to reform it and bring it closer to a biblical standing.

I attribute the reason to the availability of resources.

Isn't 'He by Himself purged our sins' (Hebrews 1) penal substitution? (leaving aside Calvinist labels).

 

[John Caldwell]

That would be called manipulation and ultimately puppeteering. Which I thought you didn't believe in.
(No judgement here, either way. I'm just trying to understand what your beliefs are).

I disagree it is manipulation.

I believe that God does work in the hearts of men. At the same time I believe we choose.

When we are shown a truth we can believe it or not.

Remember the plagues of Egypt? God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't believe.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I disagree it is manipulation.

I believe that God does work in the hearts of men. At the same time I believe we choose.

When we are shown a truth we can believe it or not.

Remember the plagues of Egypt? God hardened Pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't believe.

That does explain your position, thank you for taking the time.