Biblical Foreknowledge

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Anthony D'Arienzo

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It's a matter 1) letting the Spirit be the testifier/converter, not us. And 2) just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you're not off the hook for understanding and loving them.

My point is biblical love does not equal agree with error.
If I respect you as a person, that would mean getting to truth. If you hold error and I do not confront you and let you go to perish, that is not love
then we would say, we loved jane doe, she was a nice person, except for holding false teaching, she will be one of the nicest sinners to perish, however, and it was nice to chat with her???

No..many do not see this as love. A believer who does not seek to inform others of truth, is not loving at all.
 

John Caldwell

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It's a matter 1) letting the Spirit be the testifier/converter, not us. And 2) just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you're not off the hook for understanding and loving them.
Absolutely, Jane.

We are, in fact, not only commanded to love our fellow believers but to also love and be at peace with all men (even our enemies). The second song @Nancy posted on this thread is wonderful (both are): As it is in Heaven...song.

I've explained that I believe at a minimum predestination can be based on divine omniscience (so obviously the doctrine of divine omniscience is important to me). Others here have explained that they hold (if I understand them correctly) a less than traditional idea of omniscience (that God does not know the future completely). They take the time to explain to me their view, and for that I am grateful (as I should be). This does not mean I agree with them. But I do not listen to people's understanding to belittle them. We can never give another person our understanding, and we can never adopt the understanding of another. We are unique beings.

God has given us four important commands that helps to make these types of forums a better place to be:

Do not judge the world
Do not judge the servant of Another (He can make them to stand)
Love one another
Obey God's commands
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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More of the antidote from AW.Pink;

Now the Divine knowledge of the future is not a mere abstraction, but something which is inseparably connected with and accompanied by His purpose. God has Himself designed whatsoever shall yet be, and what He has designed must be effectuated. As His most sure Word affirms, “He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand” ( Daniel 4:35).

And again, “There are many devices in a man’s heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand” ( Proverbs 19:21).

The wisdom and power of God being alike infinite, the accomplishment of whatever He hath purposed is absolutely guaranteed. It is no more possible for the Divine counsels to fail in their execution than it would be for the thrice holy God to lie.

Nothing relating to the future is in anywise uncertain so far as the actualization of God’s counsels are concerned. None of His decrees are left contingent either on creatures or secondary causes. There is no future event which is only a mere possibility, that is, something which may or may not come to pass, “Known unto God are all His works from the beginning” ( Acts 15:18).

Whatever God has decreed is inexorably certain, for He is without variableness, or shadow, of turning. ( James 1:17). Therefore we are told at the very beginning of that book which unveils to us so much of the future, of “Things which must shortly come to pass.” ( Revelation 1:1).

The perfect knowledge of God is exemplified and illustrated in every prophecy recorded in His Word. In the Old Testament are to be found scores of predictions concerning the history of Israel, which were fulfilled to their minutest detail, centuries after they were made. In them too are scores more foretelling the earthly career of Christ, and they too were accomplished literally and perfectly. Such prophecies could only have been given by One who knew the end from the beginning, and whose knowledge rested upon the unconditional certainty of the accomplishment of everything foretold. In like manner, both Old and New Testament contain many other announcements yet future, and they too “must be fulfilled” ( Luke 24:44), must because foretold by Him who decreed them.

It should, however, be pointed out that neither God’s knowledge nor His cognition of the future, considered simply in themselves, are causative.

Nothing has ever come to pass, or ever will, merely because God knew it.

The cause of all things is the will of God. The man who really believes the Scriptures knows beforehand that the seasons will continue to follow each other with unfailing regularity to the end of earth’s history ( Genesis 8:22), yet his knowledge is not the cause of their succession. So God’s knowledge does not arise from things because they are or will be but because He has ordained them to be. Godknew and foretold the crucifixion of His Son many hundreds of years before He became incarnate, and this, because in the Divine purpose, He was a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world: hence we read of His being “delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God” ( Acts 2:23).
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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This error has continued in this thread;

When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this “foreknowledge” is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men. It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature.

It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors ( Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect .

Ere proceeding further with our discussion of this much misunderstood theme, let us pause and define our terms. What is meant by “foreknowledge?” “To know beforehand,” is the ready reply of many. But we must not jump at conclusions, nor must we turn to Webster’s dictionary as the final court of appeal, for it is not a matter of the etymology of the term employed. What is needed is to find out how the word is used in Scripture. The Holy Spirit’s usage of an expression always defines its meaning and scope. It is failure to apply this simple, rule which is responsible for so much confusion and error. So many people assume they already know the signification of a certain word used in Scripture, and then they are too dilatory to test their assumptions by means of a concordance.

THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
 

Jane_Doe22

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Jane_Doe22



Human wisdom might suggest this jane, but scripture does not. If a person holds error that will keep them out of the kingdom, it is not loving to withhold the truth from them.
It is nice to get to know someone and be friendly, the truth can offend. The goal is not to offend, but to offer a way of correction.
If my JW neighbor has the wrong God, and a works gospel he will perish. God uses people to bring truth, not enable the person to stay in sin.
A Dr. sees a patient has cancer, he does not joke and make long-range plans for entertainment and recreation with a seriously ill patient...he must inform the patient and lay out the truth for him. Not agree and say, you are just fine, I love you and do not want to upset you at all...I all about love.
My point is biblical love does not equal agree with error.
If I respect you as a person, that would mean getting to truth. If you hold error and I do not confront you and let you go to perish, that is not love
then we would say, we loved jane doe, she was a nice person, except for holding false teaching, she will be one of the nicest sinners to perish, however, and it was nice to chat with her???

No..many do not see this as love. A believer who does not seek to inform others of truth, is not loving at all.
Going with some general rules of conduct I hold to:

1) A disciple of Christ should always act in a Christ-like manner. That includes when talking to another person who has different beliefs than you or is flaming or is acting in a horrible fashion. That's no excuse to abandon Christ and start with the horrible behaviors ourselves.
2) Acknowledge good wherever it is. If a person holds some good beliefs, I will acknowledge those points, even if I don't agree with them about everything.
3) The second great commandment is to love your neighbor. And the first is to love the Lord. By listening and being truthful about what a person actually believe, I better fulfill both of these commandments. Shoving socks in my ears and clinging to misconceptions about another person fails both great commandments.
4) The Holy Spirit is the one whom testifies and converts people. Not me or any other mortal.
5) Being a jerk, being prideful, and generally acting un-Christ-like isn't going to show anyone you're a disciple of Christ or that you know the Truth. It can have quite the opposite effect though.
6) Let God reveal Truth to you and listen to Him.
 
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GodsGrace

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John Caldwell,

Last night we were told that there is no gospel, in the doctrines of Grace.
Now we are being told that there are things and all-knowing God has unknowable things!


No, what we find is people objecting to your departure from scripture and substituting your philosophical notions instead.
your lack of truthfulness has come into question,yes it has.


Anyone who corrects your error has a lack of love? No biblical love speaks the TRUTH, In love.

Living in sewage would be, to be a talebearer.
I'd like to tell you the following AD:

First your absolute belief that YOU are right and everyone else is wrong is rather very presumptive on God Himself who alone knows the truth and has allowed us to know a small part of that truth.

Second, I find that when THEOLOGIANS cannot agree on something,,,there is space for difference of OPINION. It means we cannot get to the truth with our limited knowledge. This would include open theism and closed theism or determinism. The bible allows for either one. Why was God sorry He made man?
Didn't He know man would sin? OTOH, EVERYTHING worked out JUST RIGHT for Jesus to be crucified. Coincidence?

My third point I've already made to you.
Those that study the bible ALSO study philosophy because it's a part of theology...
If you choose not to believe this, it's up to you; but, apparently, those more intelligent than us have seen fit to include it.

I used to have very nice conversations with a philosopher some years ago on another forum and he knew more about theology than most.

You and @SovereignGrace and @Preacher4Truth should stop telling everyone they're wrong AND SHOW THEM WHY.

Apparently, you'all can't.
 

TheWind

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From A.W.Pink;

When that term is used in connection with God, it often signifies to regard with favor , denoting not mere cognition but an affection for the object in view. “I know thee by name” ( Exo.33:17). “Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you” ( Deut. 9:24). “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee” ( Jer. 1:5). “They have made princes and I knew it not ”( Hosea 8:4). “You only have I known of all the families of the earth” ( Amos 3:2).

In these passages knew signifies either loved or appointed .

In like manner, the word “know” is frequently used in the New Testament, in the same sense as in the Old Testament. “Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you” ( Matt. 7:23). “I am the good shepherd and know My sheep and am known of Mine” ( John 10:14). “If any man love God, the same is known of Him” ( 1 Cor. 8:3). “The Lord knoweth them that are His” ( 2 Tim. 2:19).

Now the word “foreknowledge” as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form “to know.” If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that “foreknowledge” is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons . It is persons God is said to “foreknow,” not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, “Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Personcrucified: “Him (Christ) being delivered by,” etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called,” etc.

Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view. “God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew” ( Rom. 11:2).

Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.

The last mention is in 1 Pet. 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.” Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the “strangers scattered” i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.

see pt2;
The elect are those who hear the word of God by the gospel and are baptized into the new man by the Spirit of God.
 

John Caldwell

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I graduated seminary quite a while back. Until this past year I’ve taught and preached (I recently move to another state). I have seen firsthand people enter a study only to exchange the gospel for an understanding of the gospel. To an extent I did this myself early on. I’ve delivered sermons that I now regret. But this is how we learn.

My son is in high school and called into the ministry. He is looking at colleges and seminaries and in a way I would worry less if he were entering a secular vocation. My concern for him is that he does not lose his First Love, that he does not take his eyes off Christ.

It is easy to get carried away by philosophies and theologies. It is easy to lean on our own understanding. It is, in fact, a very human thing to do. Theology makes no demands of us while the gospel demands everything. But theology does not have the power to save while the gospel is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes.

The world does not need more theologians. The world needs more Christians. The world does not need our philosophy. The world needs Christ.
 

John Caldwell

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The elect are those who hear the word of God by the gospel and are baptized into the new man by the Spirit of God.
Scripture agrees. The Bible never speaks of a man being "elect" except that one be among the "elect" as member of the Body. Scripture never speaks of an "elect person" becoming saved. We examine ourselves to make our election sure (to make sure that we are a member of the Body of Christ).
 

TheWind

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Scripture agrees. The Bible never speaks of a man being "elect" except that one be among the "elect" as member of the Body. Scripture never speaks of an "elect person" becoming saved. We examine ourselves to make our election sure (to make sure that we are a member of the Body of Christ).
2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification(BAPTISM) of the Spirit(GOD) and belief of the truth:
 

John Caldwell

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2 Thessalonians 2:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification(BAPTISM) of the Spirit(GOD) and belief of the truth:
Yes. We are all to give thanks to God because God has from the beginning chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth. This is, of course, a letter to believers speaking of people who believe (Christians).

A Presbyterian speaker (I cannot remember who) gave the illustration of a man going to Heaven. Above the gate as he entered was the words "Whosoever Believes". When he went through the gate he looked back and saw on the other side the words "chosen from the foundation of the earth".

Scripture never speaks of a lost person as being "elect". The "elect" are those who are saved. I do not think that God calls us to reconcile these things. I think that God calls us to believe them.
 

TheWind

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Yes. We are all to give thanks to God because God has from the beginning chosen us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth. This is, of course, a letter to believers speaking of people who believe (Christians).

A Presbyterian speaker (I cannot remember who) gave the illustration of a man going to Heaven. Above the gate as he entered was the words "Whosoever Believes". When he went through the gate he looked back and saw on the other side the words "chosen from the foundation of the earth".

Scripture never speaks of a lost person as being "elect". The "elect" are those who are saved. I do not think that God calls us to reconcile these things. I think that God calls us to believe them.

No man has entered into heaven without the Spirit of Christ, which is the Spirit of God.

As it is written, the Spirit of Christ is the way to God, the Spirit of Christ is the truth of God and the Spirit of Christ is the eternal life of God: no man goes to heaven but by the Spirit of Christ

John 3:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he(the Spirit of Christ) that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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The elect are those who hear the word of God by the gospel and are baptized into the new man by the Spirit of God.
Hello wind,
Yes, the elect are sinners who are quickened by the Spirit, and made new men.Spirit baptism was a one time event that every quickened believer was included in.
 
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TheWind

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Hello wind,
Yes, the elect are sinners who are quickened by the Spirit, and made new men.Spirit baptism was a one time event that every quickened believer was included in.

I was referring to water baptism, which is to be done in the name of Jesus(God) and by his Spirit.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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I'd like to tell you the following AD:

First your absolute belief that YOU are right and everyone else is wrong is rather very presumptive on God Himself who alone knows the truth and has allowed us to know a small part of that truth.

Second, I find that when THEOLOGIANS cannot agree on something,,,there is space for difference of OPINION. It means we cannot get to the truth with our limited knowledge. This would include open theism and closed theism or determinism. The bible allows for either one. Why was God sorry He made man?
Didn't He know man would sin? OTOH, EVERYTHING worked out JUST RIGHT for Jesus to be crucified. Coincidence?

My third point I've already made to you.
Those that study the bible ALSO study philosophy because it's a part of theology...
If you choose not to believe this, it's up to you; but, apparently, those more intelligent than us have seen fit to include it.

I used to have very nice conversations with a philosopher some years ago on another forum and he knew more about theology than most.

You and @SovereignGrace and @Preacher4Truth should stop telling everyone they're wrong AND SHOW THEM WHY.

Apparently, you'all can't.
Wonderful. Maybe now you could attempt to answer the OP.
There are not many truths, just one. The closer we get to it, the better off we are..you say what you do and accuse because you cannot take a correct stand.
Trying to insult me is not necessary , we ha ve JonC for that,lol
 
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GodsGrace

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Wonderful. Maybe now you could attempt to answer the OP.
There are not many truths, just one. The closer we get to it, the better off we are..you say what you do and accuse because you cannot take a correct stand.
Trying to insult me is not necessary , we ha ve JonC for that,lol
Please post the statement I made which was to insult you....

I've posted two scriptures for you to answer and you haven't asnwered either one.
One was John 3:16 and you said you had already answered it...so I guess I should start at post one if I'm to have the privilege of an answer from you and keep going till I get to your former response.

The other scripture I posted was John 12:32

Again....no reply.

AND they were posted at YOUR request!
You said to post any verse and you'd answer it.

still waiting.....
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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GodsGrace,

I'd like to tell you the following AD:

ok, what?

First your absolute belief that YOU are right and everyone else is wrong
I do not post unless I think I have a good bit of truth.
That might be those who can explain it better, and perhaps add to it.
If I am not certain, I will indicate that in the post.


is rather very presumptive on God Himself who alone knows the truth and has allowed us to know a small part of that truth.

Whatever is written is written for us to know...

29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God:
but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

King James Version (KJV)


Second, I find that when THEOLOGIANS cannot agree on something,,,there is space for difference of OPINION.
sometimes a difference that can be worked out.
Some differences are just flat out truth versus error.
A person who denies the trinity has a fatal error unless they are confronted and repent.
when such persons get confronted with the truth they resist sometimes, in fact quite often on here.


It means we cannot get to the truth with our limited knowledge.
I do not agree. that is not what scripture teaches.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.




This would include open theism and closed theism or determinism. The bible allows for either one.

No it does not. They are mutually exclusive.

Why was God sorry He made man?
Didn't He know man would sin? OTOH, EVERYTHING worked out JUST RIGHT for Jesus to be crucified. Coincidence?
God was not "sorry". There are no coincidences.If you would read the links posted you would not offer these errors.

My third point I've already made to you.
Those that study the bible ALSO study philosophy because it's a part of theology...
If you choose not to believe this, it's up to you; but, apparently, those more intelligent than us have seen fit to include
it
I do not agree with this.
.
You and @SovereignGrace and @Preacher4Truth should stop telling everyone they're wrong AND SHOW THEM WHY.

I have seen these men post, If they say you are wrong, for the most part, you are. They try and offer help. People fight against them because they get right to it and do not dance around.
They want a sincere and biblical response that is truthful. Mant lie. You would not expect liars on a Christian board, but we have seen it even here. None of us are perfect but we try to help. To help someone does not mean to agree with error, but rather show it to be error.


Apparently, you'all can't.

We have, but you will not look...you refused to address the OP. remember.
 
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Grailhunter

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God was not "sorry". There are no coincidences.If you would read the links posted you would not offer these errors.

Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart." KJV
Genesis 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that He made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." NASB
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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God was not "sorry". There are no coincidences.If you would read the links posted you would not offer these errors.

Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart." KJV
Genesis 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that He made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart." NASB

Yes I know the verse, and I repeat...God was not sorry. It was an anthropomorphism.
 
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