Biblical Foreknowledge

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't know the big point (except that God causes all things to work for the good). Maybe the big point was that I understand God is sovereign in all things yet we freely decide. If the future depends on my choices apart from providence I should never decide as I cannot see the future. If my choices do not matter then I have no responsibility. But if my choices matter AND God is in control then I can act trusting in God for the outcome.

As Scripture says - The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

I agree that the hard-care Calvinism complete denial of free will is complete removal of responsibility.

A hard-core Arminian (like myself) would say that God gives a person free will to make their choices. No manipulation, no pupeeterring, no rigging. Real free will. And real responsibility.

It was my understanding that your position was a sort of soft Calvinism: a person has will, but like the human throwing the dog's ball, it is being manipulated* to ensure a certain outcome.

(*I'm sorry, I don't want to use a word that's so negatively loaded here, but I really can't think of a better one. My apologies for my short coming in that regard).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

just funny

Yes you have asked for answers but you.might wait a long time for that to happen

 

[John Caldwell]

I agree that the hard-care Calvinism complete denial of free will is complete removal of responsibility.

A hard-core Arminian (like myself) would say that God gives a person free will to make their choices. No manipulation, no pupeeterring, no rigging. Real free will. And real responsibility.

It was my understanding that your position was a sort of soft Calvinism: a person has will, but like the human throwing the dog's ball, it is being manipulated* to ensure a certain outcome.

(*I'm sorry, I don't want to use a word that's so negatively loaded here, but I really can't think of a better one. My apologies for my short coming in that regard).

My position is one of compatiblism. But I think we take it as it comes in Scripture. When scripture presents man as planning his way or casting the lots, we accept that men have a free will. When Scripture has God determining man's steps and the outcome of the cast lots we accept that as well.

We think of God's will as if God's will was like ours. I know this is necessary, but I reconcile passages like I offered from Proverbs by reminding my self this is anthropomorphic. God is God and we are not. I have no need to reconcile the apparent antinomy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Speaking from the non-Calvinist viewpoint:
God knows what we are going to do (everyone agrees on that). He knew Mary would say yes and be willing. But he didn't force or manipulate such an outcome. It was her own free choice.

I agree.
This is also for @Enoch111
He knew Mary would be wiling...
So God PREPARED Mary....
Just like He prepared Pharaoh?
We then cannot complain and debate that Pharaoh was not hardened by God.
(which I don't BTW).

How did Judas just happen to come along at JUST THE RIGHT TIME?
Did God FOREKNOW that Judas would betray Jesus and so God made Jesus be born at just the right time that Judas was also born?

I don't make this concept to be so simple....
I think we need to admit that we do not know EVERYTHING about God and how He brings HIS WILL about.

 

[GodsGrace]

Speaking from the non-Calvinist viewpoint:
God knows what we are going to do (everyone agrees on that). He knew Mary would say yes and be willing. But he didn't force or manipulate such an outcome. It was her own free choice.

I agree it was her own free choice.
But you say that God also foreknew the choice.

So how did it come about that
John the B. was born 6 mos prior to Jesus....
Judas was born at just the right time.
Jesus was born at just the right time.

Could these all be coincidences?

 

[John Caldwell]

I agree.
This is also for @Enoch111
He knew Mary would be wiling...
So God PREPARED Mary....
Just like He prepared Pharaoh?
We then cannot complain and debate that Pharaoh was not hardened by God.
(which I don't BTW).

How did Judas just happen to come along at JUST THE RIGHT TIME?
Did God FOREKNOW that Judas would betray Jesus and so God made Jesus be born at just the right time that Judas was also born?

I don't make this concept to be so simple....
I think we need to admit that we do not know EVERYTHING about God and how He brings HIS WILL about.

Determinism removes "working" from God working everything for the good.

Calvinists, just like non-Calvinists, can err in what they deny.

 

[GodsGrace]

My position is one of compatiblism. But I think we take it as it comes in Scripture. When scripture presents man as planning his way or casting the lots, we accept that men have a free will. When Scripture has God determining man's steps and the outcome of the cast lots we accept that as well.

We think of God's will as if God's will was like ours. I know this is necessary, but I reconcile passages like I offered from Proverbs by reminding my self this is anthropomorphic. God is God and we are not. I have no need to reconcile the apparent antinomy.

What do you mean that you think this is anthropomorphic.
You mean NOT anthropomorphic?

 

[prism]

How did Judas just happen to come along at JUST THE RIGHT TIME?
Did God FOREKNOW that Judas would betray Jesus and so God made Jesus be born at just the right time that Judas was also born?
I don't make this concept to be so simple....
I think we need to admit that we do not know EVERYTHING about God and how He brings HIS WILL about.

Yes God is infinitely multi dimensional (as He is infinitely so many other things) that we can't fully wrap our finite minds around. I believe the closest we can come is that God is 100% sovereign while simultaneously holding our choices/responsibility 100% fully intact.

 

[GodsGrace]

Determinism removes "working" from God working everything for the good.

Calvinists, just like non-Calvinists, can err in what they deny.

Good point.
Determinism removes God working for the good...
If God is STILL WORKING, then we have open theism....
thinks CAN change.
Which makes sense because otherwise prayer would be useless.

And I am not an arminian....I read what that is and I don't agree with all of it.
What I prefer to discuss is whether we are monergistic or synergistic in our belief system.

I believe in synergism.
I believe once we're saved, we work WITH GOD to bring about His Kingdom on earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes God is infinitely multi dimensional (as He is infinitely so many other things) that we can't fully wrap our finite minds around. I believe the closest we can come is that God is 100% sovereign while simultaneously holding our choices/responsibility 100% fully intact.

Right.
If this were not true,,,then we would not be responsible for our moral choices and we'd be dealing with a God that sends persons to hell because of what HE determined or predestined.

This would not be a just God and we know that He is.
Plenty of scripture...but I guess we all know the same verses so we won't post any unless asked.

 

[HammerStone]

Late to the discussion here, but maybe part of the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism is that we lack the vocabulary to describe how it works. I've always been relatively comfortable with some level of ambiguity, but I know that my nature is to seek clarity on something that we're probably not going to see this side of the second coming.

I fall back to my hard drive definition. Our hard drives (minds) are simply smaller than God's so how can we understand everything when it comes to an unlimited hard drive (the mind of God)?

Pondering Calvinism as philosophically obsessed is an interesting thought. I have long felt that both sides get into making statements as absolutes that get them into trouble. Eventually those fully finite statements lead into circumstances or syllogisms that conflict with the nature of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Late to the discussion here, but maybe part of the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism is that we lack the vocabulary to describe how it works. I've always been relatively comfortable with some level of ambiguity, but I know that my nature is to seek clarity on something that we're probably not going to see this side of the second coming.

I fall back to my hard drive definition. Our hard drives (minds) are simply smaller than God's so how can we understand everything when it comes to an unlimited hard drive (the mind of God)?

Pondering Calvinism as philosophically obsessed is an interesting thought. I have long felt that both sides get into making statements as absolutes that get them into trouble. Eventually those fully finite statements lead into circumstances or syllogisms that conflict with the nature of God.

I agree.
Did you happen to read my post 406?
This type of chronology of events makes me believe God had A LOT to do with what transpired.

OTOH, I am not calvinist in any sense and believe fully in free will.

 

[John Caldwell]

What do you mean that you think this is anthropomorphic.
You mean NOT anthropomorphic?

No, I mean anthropomorphic. We attribute to God a human will in order to understand God, but God infinity exceeds our comprehension. We can fellowship and learn about each other by debating these topics, but we can never know God except as He has revealed Himself to us.

 

[Grailhunter]

Right.
If this were not true,,,then we would not be responsible for our moral choices and we'd be dealing with a God that sends persons to hell because of what HE determined or predestined.

This would not be a just God and we know that He is.
Plenty of scripture...but I guess we all know the same verses so we won't post any unless asked.

Caught that @GodsGrace .......Here is a scripture for him IF he wants to know who Christ thought was the elicit.....

Matthew 10:5&6 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

 

[John Caldwell]

Late to the discussion here, but maybe part of the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianism is that we lack the vocabulary to describe how it works. I've always been relatively comfortable with some level of ambiguity, but I know that my nature is to seek clarity on something that we're probably not going to see this side of the second coming.

I fall back to my hard drive definition. Our hard drives (minds) are simply smaller than God's so how can we understand everything when it comes to an unlimited hard drive (the mind of God)?

Pondering Calvinism as philosophically obsessed is an interesting thought. I have long felt that both sides get into making statements as absolutes that get them into trouble. Eventually those fully finite statements lead into circumstances or syllogisms that conflict with the nature of God.

I's say we not only lack the vocabulary but we lack the capacity. God never revealed what some Calvinists often see.

There is a condition worse than blindness, and that is, seeing something that isn't there. Thomas Hardy

 

[John Caldwell]

Good point.
Determinism removes God working for the good...
If God is STILL WORKING, then we have open theism....
thinks CAN change.
Which makes sense because otherwise prayer would be useless.

And I am not an arminian....I read what that is and I don't agree with all of it.
What I prefer to discuss is whether we are monergistic or synergistic in our belief system.

I believe in synergism.
I believe once we're saved, we work WITH GOD to bring about His Kingdom on earth.

I think the question is can things change for us or for God. I agree with the former, but the latter is a denial of the traditional definition of divine omniscience. I hold that traditional definition, but to be fair I hold it out of tradition (I have not challenged the definition).

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the question is can things change for us or for God. I agree with the former, but the latter is a denial of the traditional definition of divine omniscience. I hold that traditional definition, but to be fair I hold it out of tradition (I have not challenged the definition).

IOW, IF things DO change...God would still have had foreknowledge of them...

I study with a Catholic friar together with about 12-15 other persons, once a month.
He delves into things and has deep thoughts about everything.

He keeps telling me I don't understand God's time.
One day I plan to go up there alone and have him really explain this to me.

He agrees that God is omniscient, of course.
God knows EVERYTHING, from the beginning of time - which didn't have a beginning.

But he tells me God only knew it when it happened.
This boggles my mind every time he says it and I do need to have it explained better...it seems that the others understand this.

I don't. And just because it's HIM doesn't mean that I agree with everything anyway..but he's been right about a lot of things.

 

[GodsGrace]

Caught that @GodsGrace .......Here is a scripture for him IF he wants to know who Christ thought was the elicit.....

Matthew 10:5&6 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The verse above, Mathew 10:5-6 is the verse that lead me to believe that Judas was saved at one point. Would Jesus send out an unsaved Apostle to preach and to heal?
Would Jesus have anointed him as well as the other 11?
Do you have any ideas on this?
Not to change the topic....
I fits because after this Jesus DID say that Judas was the son of perdition and it seemed that Jesus always knew this...SEEMED...toward the end of His ministry, Jesus knew that Judas would be the betrayer.

 

[John Caldwell]

IOW, IF things DO change...God would still have had foreknowledge of them...

I study with a Catholic friar together with about 12-15 other persons, once a month.
He delves into things and has deep thoughts about everything.

He keeps telling me I don't understand God's time.
One day I plan to go up there alone and have him really explain this to me.

He agrees that God is omniscient, of course.
God knows EVERYTHING, from the beginning of time - which didn't have a beginning.

But he tells me God only knew it when it happened.
This boggles my mind every time he says it and I do need to have it explained better...it seems that the others understand this.

I don't. And just because it's HIM doesn't mean that I agree with everything anyway..but he's been right about a lot of things.

Some believe that omniscience means knowing all there is to know - but the outcome of contingencies are unknowable even by God. I do not see how foreknowledge is possible under that senerio.

I have seen too many people carried away by vain philosophies. I enjoy exploring these things but at the same time we have to be very careful.

Look around this thread for example. I do not know what you will find but I suspect you will find people belittling me (and others) for questioning their philosophies. That is how you can know their position is false - by the lack of love demonstrated.

This is not to say we can't get out of line (I wear out the path to the Throne on a daily basis). But there is a difference in steping in sewage and living in it.

Too often we get into a "my ism is bigger than yours" contest. I've gotten over ism envy long ago.

If our doctrine does not lead us to love one another then it is a false doctrine. If our position does not make us more gracious and kind then we need to toss it aside. If our gospel does not make us more like Christ then it is no gospel at all.

 

[Grailhunter]

The verse above, Mathew 10:5-6 is the verse that lead me to believe that Judas was saved at one point. Would Jesus send out an unsaved Apostle to preach and to heal?
Would Jesus have anointed him as well as the other 11?
Do you have any ideas on this?
Not to change the topic....
I fits because after this Jesus DID say that Judas was the son of perdition and it seemed that Jesus always knew this...SEEMED...toward the end of His ministry, Jesus knew that Judas would be the betrayer.

The bad guy is going to be the bad guy. It is hard to get past being instrumental in causing Christ's crucifixion. History shows that the Jews were persecuted by the Christians for centuries. One could say their future after Christ's crucifixion was damned. They caught part of Inquisition and were kicked out of Spain. Since Jews were looking for someone that would take on their oppressors and make things right, they were shocked when the messiah was a God and preached love and forgiveness. It is said that Judas was a Zealot and wanted a fight. So it is possible that Christ was a disappointment to him.