Biblical Mary

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Twice you were accused of not giving scriptural support, and twice you gave Joshua 7:6. This is why I have Taken on ignore. It's like talking to a wall.
Yes, his cowardly evasion is evident for ALL to see.
But I'm not letting this go.

EVERY angry anti-Catholic needs to answer this question - and it STARTS with the angriest of all - @Taken . . .
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: busrider

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
27,449
14,862
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, his cowardly evasion is evident for ALL to see.
But I'm not letting this go.

EVERY angry anti-Catholic needs to answer this question - and it STARTS with the angriest of all - @Taken . . .

Crafting Idols and practicing Idolatry by Israel was an abomination in the OT.
Crafting Idols and practicing Idolatry by Gentiles and Jews in the NT was an abomination.
Gentiles and Jews who continue to practice Idolatry is still an abomination.
* The catholic church is a forerunner for teaching and encouraging the abdominal practice of Idolatry.
* Tho catholic hoax and lie is convincing ignorant people that having, bowing down before and kissing graven images is not idolatry.
* DUPED.

Your narcissist self-inflated ego, accusing, anger of rejection, Idolatry practices, justification excuses, blindness....have Zero affect on me.

Not a Big Secret;

DO NOT DO
Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image
of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

MUST DO
John 4:
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

LESSON ...there is NO Spirit, NO Life, NO Truth in Idols, statues, beads, trinkets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,198
113
73
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
• The Second Council of Nicaea (787) addressed the heresy of iconoclasm. This was the heresy that taught images of God and the saints must be smashed since they were allegedly worshiped by Catholics. (Which is false and would be blasphemy and heresy.)

“The one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols.”​

• The Catechism of the Council of Trent, page 227, teaches that idolatry is of the devil. In objection to the accusation that Catholics worship images, it states that this is committed when:

“As far as this Commandment is concerned, it is clear that there are two chief ways in which God’s majesty can be seriously outraged. The first way is by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them, as the Gentiles did, who placed their hopes in idols, and whose idolatry the Scriptures frequently condemn.”​

• The Catechism of the Catholic Church states the following in regards to idolatry:
“Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’” (CCC 2114).​
Apologetics 1.9: Catholic teaching on idolatry, icons, and the True God! – Holy Synergy (wordpress.com)

distinguish the holy from the profane
 
Last edited:

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Post# 1258
Sooooo, tell me - WHY were they NOT guilty of "idolatry" prostrating themselves before an object

Because it was a symbolic symbol of God in the Old Covenant for the ancient Jews.

Nowhere in the New Testament was it commanded to the saints to return to those worship type of things, neither to create any new ones.

"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more." (Jeremiah 3:16)
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,977
7,201
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Post# 1258


Because it was a symbolic symbol of God in the Old Covenant for the ancient Jews.

Nowhere in the New Testament was it commanded to the saints to return to those worship type of things, neither to create any new ones.

"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more." (Jeremiah 3:16)
More so than that...the very presence of God Himself came down and dwelt between the cherubim that stood over the mercy seat. It was God Himself they worshiped...the mercy seat being a earthly symbolic depiction of God's throne in heaven, guarded by two angels (covering cherubs) of which Lucifer was one before his fall. Catholics should know this. Their own Pope has seated himself on an earthly counterfeit of this very heavenly throne. Francis-Jan25-2014sm.jpg
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
9,977
7,201
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You bear false witness. The SDA is obsessed with Catholic bashing, particularly with exaggerated histories as you have just proved. TODAY, nobody accepts Auquinas' outdated teachings. He was addressing the heresiarchs of his day, that were a threat to society. You guys always leave out historical context to paint Aquinas as a blood thirsty monster. It's not the 12th century.

Presentism: In literary and historical analysis, presentism is the anachronistic introduction of present-day ideas and perspectives into depictions or interpretations of the past. Some modern historians seek to avoid presentism in their work because they consider it a form of cultural bias, and believe it creates a distorted understanding of their subject matter. The practice of presentism is regarded by some as a common fallacy when writing about the past. (wiki)

51LAbRH5nsL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


As we all know and as many of our well established textbooks have argued for decades, the Inquisition was one of the most frightening and bloody chapters in Western history, Pope Pius XII was anti-Semitic and rightfully called “Hitler’s Pope,” the Dark Ages were a stunting of the progress of knowledge to be redeemed only by the secular spirit of the Enlightenment, and the religious Crusades were an early example of the rapacious Western thirst for riches and power. But what if these long held beliefs were all wrong?

In this stunning, powerful, and ultimately persuasive book, Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion and bestselling author of The Rise of Christianity (HarperSanFrancisco 1997) (he is NOT a Catholic) argues that some of our most firmly held ideas about history, ideas that paint the Catholic Church in the least positive light are, in fact, fiction. Why have we held these wrongheaded ideas so strongly and for so long? And if our beliefs are wrong, what, in fact, is the truth?
In each chapter, Stark takes on a well-established anti-Catholic myth, gives a fascinating history of how each myth became the conventional wisdom, and presents a startling picture of the real truth. For example,
  • Instead of the Spanish Inquisition being an anomaly of torture and murder of innocent people persecuted for “imaginary” crimes such as witchcraft and blasphemy, Stark argues that not only did the Spanish Inquisition spill very little blood, but it was a major force in support of moderation and justice.
  • Instead of Pope Pius XII being apathetic or even helpful to the Nazi movement, such as to merit the title, “Hitler’s Pope,” Stark shows that the campaign to link Pope Pius XII to Hitler was initiated by the Soviet Union, presumably in hopes of neutralizing the Vatican in post-World War II affairs. Pope Pius XII was widely praised for his vigorous and devoted efforts to saving Jewish lives during the war.
  • Instead of the Dark Ages being understood as a millennium of ignorance and backwardness inspired by the Catholic Church’s power, Stark argues that the whole notion of the “Dark Ages” was an act of pride perpetuated by anti-religious intellectuals who were determined to claim that theirs was the era of “Enlightenment.”
In the end, readers will not only have a more accurate history of the Catholic Church, they will come to understand why it became unfairly maligned for so long. Bearing False Witness is a compelling and sobering account of how egotism and ideology often work together to give us a false truth.

Backlit is too proud to be corrected.
One book doesn't eradicate the bloody history of Papal despotism in Europe.
Aquinas merely continued that which began earlier. Others set the mood. He established a principle, a precedent, by which the church practised and operated to this day. The basic ethos of papal supremacy, the concept that the Pope rules the whole world both in the secular and religious spheres, is as ancient as it is unbiblical. According to your own teachings, Popes don't make stuff up. They merely exercise what has gone on before.
You would have us believe that the inquisitions, held throughout Europe for centuries and elsewhere where Jesuits thought it appropriate, as an Goa India) were inquiries held only toward the faithfulness or otherwise against Catholics? The torture chambers underneath the churches, cathedrals and castles throughout Europe (you can still visit many of them today if you have a mind that can handle the obscene) were there only to torture Catholics, and this process wasn't one of persecution, but excommunication right? And that this practice was only at the instigation of evil individuals and not church policy I suppose.
And of course all this terrible history written of by so many is nothing more than a sinister plot by anti Catholics to, ummm, why have so many written of those things again?
You speak of this concept of "presentism". I find that curious. Please explain how that concept applied to eye witness accounts and testimony of the actual victims suffering under those persecutions. Were they being melodramatic and unsympathetic to the context of the times in which they were living?
Does "presentism", apply to the more recent teachings of the Catholic Church that reflect word by word, the infallible teachings of predecessors? How does that work? For example, are the teachings of Trent now discarded due to cultural bias? Or are they still an infallible depiction of papal supremacy and repudiation of individual religious conscience as taught and practiced for 1500 years?

Are we lying, or is the Adventist church exaggerating when we quote Pius IX as saying that people have no right to suggest the following...
23. Roman pontiffs and ecumenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals. — Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

Are we lying and the Adventist church exaggerating when we quote Pius IX as saying that being have no right to suggest that
24. The Church has not the power of using force, ( and of course this has nothing to do with freedom of conscience) nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect. — ( and such force in the temporal sphere is denied by you and others here in this forum when you claim only the state used torture and correction and the death sentence.)Apostolic Letter “Ad Apostolicae,” Aug. 22, 1851.

Are we lying, or is the Adventist church exaggerating when we quote Pius IX as saying that people have no right to suggest the church wrong to view...
Pests of this kind (Bible societies included so again, a declaration against religious liberty) are frequently reprobated in the severest terms in the Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846, Allocution “Quibus quantisque,” April 20, 1849, Encyclical “Noscitis et nobiscum,” Dec. 8, 1849, Allocution “Singulari quadam,” Dec. 9, 1854, Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863.

These ideas I am talking about are not frivolous attacks or anti Catholic vitriol as you would like to make out. There are genuine concerns for those liberties as set out in state sponsored constitutions that guarantee the rights of individuals to worship according to conscience. Your arguments and denials regarding Catholic history and the continuing tightly held rigid canonical concepts and precepts going back many centuries, do absolutely nothing toward offering any reassurance. Catholic belligerence and accusing us of being liars etc when we bring these matters into the conversation is further evidence for our caution and suspicion.

Papal supremacy and the officially held self appointed right of the Catholic Church to rule and reign as sovereign over the whole earth in the place of God is nothing more nor less than a usurpation of authority by the church over Christ. The expectation and demand, with legalized penalties for "rebelliousness", by which term the Protestant reformation is still considered, that all, whether believer or not, ought to be in submission to papal authority is not an old concept that we look to with cultural bias and your word, "presentism". It isn't Catholic bashing. It isn't anti Catholic vitriol. We merely acknowledge your own church's tightly held ambitions and the witness of history that testifies to her willingness to go to any lengths to accomplish them..
 
  • Like
Reactions: quietthinker

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Crafting Idols and practicing Idolatry by Israel was an abomination in the OT.
Crafting Idols and practicing Idolatry by Gentiles and Jews in the NT was an abomination.
Gentiles and Jews who continue to practice Idolatry is still an abomination.
* The catholic church is a forerunner for teaching and encouraging the abdominal practice of Idolatry.
* Tho catholic hoax and lie is convincing ignorant people that having, bowing down before and kissing graven images is not idolatry.
* DUPED.

Your narcissist self-inflated ego, accusing, anger of rejection, Idolatry practices, justification excuses, blindness....have Zero affect on me.

Not a Big Secret;

DO NOT DO
Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image
of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

MUST DO
John 4:
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

LESSON ...there is NO Spirit, NO Life, NO Truth in Idols, statues, beads, trinkets.
And once again - your cowardly evasion is evident for ALL to see.
Why are you SO afraid to address the question I posed to you about the Ark?

Joshua 7:6
says:
Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

Sooooo, WHY were they NOT guilty of "idolatry" by prostrating themselves before an object - yet Catholics ARE guilty of praying before a crucifix?
Can you answer that??
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Post# 1258
Because it was a symbolic symbol of God in the Old Covenant for the ancient Jews.
Nowhere in the New Testament was it commanded to the saints to return to those worship type of things, neither to create any new ones.


"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more." (Jeremiah 3:16)
Did you actually READ what you just posted??

WHERE were the Israelites commanded to "WORSHIP" the Ark??
WHERE were they commanded to prostrate themselves before it?

They were forbidden to worship objects. The worship of an object turns it into an IDOL, a god - and that is prohibited by the FIRST Commandment (Exod. 20:2-3).

You guys need to tell me the difference between the Israelites bowing in prayer before the Ark and a Catholic bowing in prayer before a Crucifix.
So far - you've FAILED . . .
 

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You guys need to tell me the difference between the Israelites bowing in prayer before the Ark and a Catholic bowing in prayer before a Crucifix.
So far - you've FAILED

LISTEN SMART ALEC!

WHERE DID GOD COMMAND US TO CREATE A CRUCIFIX?

Don’t bother. HE DID NOT!

The failure is on YOUR end (in many ways)!
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
LISTEN SMART ALEC!
WHERE DID GOD COMMAND US TO CREATE A CRUCIFIX?

Don’t bother. HE DID NOT!
The failure is on YOUR end (in many ways)!
This is a asinine response.

Where did God command that we build cars?
Where
is the Biblical mandate for making pizza??

Are these things "against" God because HE didn't command us to do them??
Your understanding of God's Word is limited - to say the least . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Really?

That’s all you got.

Spend more time reading the Holy Bible than listening to your sectarian teachers my friend.
WHERE are we told in Scripture that we are ONLY to practice our faith in a certain, explicit manner??

WHERE do you Protestants get your "explicit instructions" about -
The Age of Accountability?
Total Depravity of Man?
A Pre-Millennial Rapture?
Invisible Church?
Folding your Hands, Bowing your Head in prayer?
“Personal Relationship with Christ”?
Accepting Christ as "personal Lord and Savior"?
Limited Atonement?
Altar Calls?
Infant Dedications?
Eternal Security?
“Once saved, always saved”?
Sola Scriptura?
Sola Fide?


When YOU can show me EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS for ALL these practices and beliefs in Scripture (YOUR requirement) - then, you can question the practices of the Catholic Church.

Your hypocrisy knows NO bounds . . .
 

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation." (Jeremiah 10:8-10)
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation." (Jeremiah 10:8-10)
THANK YOU for this admission that you cannot answer the question I post to you about Protestant practices that are NOT explicitly commanded in Scripture.

That's pretty much what I expected . . .
 

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WHERE do you Protestants get your

I AM NOT A PROTESTANT!

The Age of Accountability?

"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." (Deuteronomy 1:39)

Total Depravity of Man?

I don’t agree with this.

A Pre-Millennial Rapture?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

These were raptured before this takes place.

Invisible Church?

The church is visible in the believers, not a building.

Folding your Hands, Bowing your Head in prayer?

"And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground." (Nehemiah 8:6)

“Personal Relationship with Christ”?

It’s not a “personal relationship”. It’s we in him and he in us.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:23)

Accepting Christ as "personal Lord and Savior"?

He’s EVERY believer’s saviour!

Limited Atonement?

I honestly don’t know what this means. I don’t study witty inventions of men.

Altar Calls?

They are unbiblical.

Infant Dedications?

Unbiblical as well.

Eternal Security?
“Once saved, always saved”?

This is false doctrine. I’ve had heated arguments with many here over this abominable doctrine!

Sola Scriptura?
Sola Fide?

It’s scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God.
 

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
THANK YOU for this admission that you cannot answer the question I post to you about Protestant practices that are NOT explicitly commanded in Scripture.

That's pretty much what I expected . . .

Look at what Hezekiah did to a created object commanded by God:

"He… brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." (2 Kings 18:4)
 
  • Like
Reactions: amigo de christo

Michiah-Imla

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2020
6,502
3,663
113
Northeast USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
you Protestants

Why look here, God is a Protestant! I may have to rethink this:

"I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice." (Jeremiah 11:7)

The protests against the Catholic Church were justified in some ways, but not in totality.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I AM NOT A PROTESTANT!

If you are a Baptized Trinitarian Christian - and you are NOT a Catholic or Orthodox Christian - you are a PROTESTANT by definition.
"Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it." (Deuteronomy 1:39)

I don’t agree with this.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

These were raptured before this takes place.

The church is visible in the believers, not a building.

"And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground." (Nehemiah 8:6)

It’s not a “personal relationship”. It’s we in him and he in us.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:23)

He’s EVERY believer’s saviour!

I honestly don’t know what this means. I don’t study witty inventions of men.

They are unbiblical.

Unbiblical as well.

This is false doctrine. I’ve had heated arguments with many here over this abominable doctrine!

It’s scripture with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the wisdom of God.
Colossal FAIL on ALL counts.
I asked you to show me the EXPLICIT teachings from Scripture on these Protestant doctrines and practices and you failed.

I don't want implicit allusions or references but EXPLICIT SCRIPTURAL teaching.
Remember - this is YOUR requirement, not mine . . .

As for your remarks in RED - these are teachings that are held by MANY Protestants.
It is irrelevant whether YOU agree with them or not. ALL Protestants are Sola Scriptura - and YOU, in particular have placed an even more rigid dynamic by stating that ALL Christian practices must be EXPLICITLY TAUGHT in Scripture.

Let me know when you are ready to have a serious conversation about all of this - because, so far you have FAILED.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Look at what Hezekiah did to a created object commanded by God:

"He… brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan." (2 Kings 18:4)
I'm NOT talking about Hezekiah or the Bronze Serpent.
I asked you about the Ark of the Covenant and you keep dodging the issue.

Thank you for illustrating that you have NO answer . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,687
3,602
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why look here, God is a Protestant! I may have to rethink this:

"I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice." (Jeremiah 11:7)

The protests against the Catholic Church were justified in some ways, but not in totality.
God cannot be a Protestant OR a Catholic.
He is the OBJECT of our worship - NOT a participant.