Biblical Proof Of A Pretribulation Rapture!

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Naomi25

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Indeed. Heard it over and over 50 plus years.

But don't challenge Mid or Post Trib. Or Amil or historicism.

Actually, I think we all need to challenge our perceptions. That includes you challenging my Amil beliefs. And we should all do, and receive, such challenges without defensiveness. Proverbs 27:17 says, "Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.

By testing each other and being required to have an answer to what we believe and think scripture is saying, we surely must grow, yes? And if we can do so in an amiable manner, then regardless of whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing, we should, at the very least, end up more firmly rooted in what we believe scripture says. Wouldn't you say?
 
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Naomi25

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It does matter Grace because the false messiah will appear first and rapture believers may be deceived into worshipping him.

I am not a Dispensationalist, or a "Pre-tribber", but I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. Dispensationalists, like us (I would imagine) would not so easily fall for a false messiah. Simply because like us, they know that when Jesus comes...be it in a Rapture which would be instantaneous for them, or just in his second coming, the bible teaches that there will be no mistaking it. When he arrives, no one will need to tell us, it will be visible to all. So, the Dispensationalists would not be fooled by someone that must be pointed out to them.

I think my concern for their doctrine would stem from their belief they will be delivered from the coming intense persecution. Sometimes people start questioning God when they experiences great suffering. But...I still think they will not desert the faith...we have Christ's own reassurances that no one will snatch those that belong to him away. That must include suffering and even doubt. Even those cannot be stronger than our Lord and his grip upon his chosen.
 

Naomi25

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I agree, Heart2Soul, but as I was telling her, it's not coming soon anyway. Your point will become more valid when the Day of the Lord is actually on the horizon finally, but we are nowhere near that time yet.

Hi HIH. So...can I ask a question? Purely out of interest. What leads you to believe that we are 'no where near that time yet?'
If we cannot know the time, but it will come upon us like a thief...in another words surprise us...then it must be able to happen at any time, yes? Which means near or far...
That's my understanding, anyway. Just wondering how you understand it.
 
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CoreIssue

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Jay Ross:

CoreIssue said:
The American Standard Version was published in 1900. 218 years ago.
This reference to 218 years may be relevant to a person from the US but for one who is not a citizen of the United States, it is a meaningless statement to make without providing the context

But the is archaic English no one speaks any more.
 

CoreIssue

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Actually, I think we all need to challenge our perceptions. That includes you challenging my Amil beliefs. And we should all do, and receive, such challenges without defensiveness. Proverbs 27:17 says, "Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.

By testing each other and being required to have an answer to what we believe and think scripture is saying, we surely must grow, yes? And if we can do so in an amiable manner, then regardless of whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing, we should, at the very least, end up more firmly rooted in what we believe scripture says. Wouldn't you say?
I have done that for 57 years.

The bible says to listen, test and then retain what is true.
 

Jay Ross

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I have done that for 57 years.

The bible says to listen, test and then retain what is true.

But we have great difficulty doing this if our reference Metadata is flawed.

I know that my Metadata is always being honed into what is God's actual truth.
 
D

Dave L

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The interesting thing is, fables and mythology actually have more basis in reality than Dave L's land of Israel is the whole world theory.
If Jesus IS Israel according to the NT, (which BTW he is), then the land of Israel = the whole world, not just the land of Canaan. Didn't God promise Abraham the whole world would become his blessing?
 

Jay Ross

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In Genesis 12:1-3 God promised Abraham "the earth" that God would show him. Sadly the tradition of misunderstanding has perverted this to the land that God would show him based around the land areas contained in the solemn covenant that God entered into in Genesis 15 because of Abraham's question of "How will I know that I will inherit the whole earth?"

The Solemn Covenant God entered into with Abraham is a conformation sign covenant that if they gain dominion over the land as described in 15:17ff then they should also be able to believe that they will also inherit the whole earth that God will show to them at some time in the future.

Shalom
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH. So...can I ask a question? Purely out of interest. What leads you to believe that we are 'no where near that time yet?'
If we cannot know the time, but it will come upon us like a thief...in another words surprise us...then it must be able to happen at any time, yes? Which means near or far...
That's my understanding, anyway. Just wondering how you understand it.

Hi Naomi. Good to hear from you.

My answers to these questions are based on the belief that the rapture will come after the tribulation, and before the wrath of God is poured out upon the Beast and his followers. Actually, applying the expression "that day will come like a thief" to believers is a misconception. When the phrase is used it is employed regarding the unbelieving world, who will be saying "Peace and safety" when their destruction comes from God (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).

I would try to explain everything that still needs to happen before we get to this time, but it would be a very LONG explanation and involve treating a great deal of scripture and modern prophecy as well. Just dealing with the scriptures alone would take a great deal of time.

I would probably need to start with what you believe still needs to take place and take it from there. We could do it privately or publicly (there would be less distractions privately, but that's entirely up to you).

Thanks for the nice post.
 

Enoch111

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The Solemn Covenant God entered into with Abraham is a conformation sign covenant that if they gain dominion over the land as described in 15:17ff then they should also be able to believe that they will also inherit the whole earth that God will show to them at some time in the future.
Israel does not inherit "the whole earth" in future. Just the land between "the Nile and the Euphrates" (which would be able 10 times the land mass of modern Israel. But to deny that the Promised Land is indeed the Promised Land is to make God a liar.

... they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising… Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee… And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought... Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob...

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
(Isa 60:3,5,10,11,16, 19-21)
 

Naomi25

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Hi Naomi. Good to hear from you.

My answers to these questions are based on the belief that the rapture will come after the tribulation, and before the wrath of God is poured out upon the Beast and his followers. Actually, applying the expression "that day will come like a thief" to believers is a misconception. When the phrase is used it is employed regarding the unbelieving world, who will be saying "Peace and safety" when their destruction comes from God (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).

I would try to explain everything that still needs to happen before we get to this time, but it would be a very LONG explanation and involve treating a great deal of scripture and modern prophecy as well. Just dealing with the scriptures alone would take a great deal of time.

I would probably need to start with what you believe still needs to take place and take it from there. We could do it privately or publicly (there would be less distractions privately, but that's entirely up to you).

Thanks for the nice post.

Hi HIH! I don't mind chatting either here or privately...although if there's a lot of content to work through it might feel like we've "high jacked" the thread a bit if we do it here.

It's interesting that you mentioned the "comes like a thief in the night" passage, and specifically in regards to believers, because there is that verse after that that says, "But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." -1 Thessalonians 5:4
It would seem to be a contradiction to the other passages that also talk of "that day coming like a thief"...where Jesus is specifically talking to believers in that regard. But...there are no contractions in scripture, just limited understanding from those reading!
Do you suppose that 1 Thess 5:4 is highlighting the distinct difference between believers and unbelievers due to our knowing the signs beforehand, or do you think the verse is explained by verse 5, where is says that as we are children of light and of day, we will not be asleep...meaning, I suppose, that if we are diligent in watching for him, then we will, of course, be ready and not surprised.

As far as what I believe must still take place...I'm not sure I have all of that nailed down, to be perfectly honest. I would say, definitely, that I think an increasing amount of persecution of believers need to happen, with many 'in' the Church falling away (those who are not truly saved but are currently playing the game, so to speak). I think we shall also see large numbers of Jewish people turning to Christ.
A large number of 'signs' that the bible speaks of in the 'last days', for example, signs in the heavens...the big, cataclysmic, unmissable things, I think could happen at, or moments before his actual return...to the point that they are really part of the same event. But I'm not dogmatic on that. And...well, as I said, I'm still reading and researching to form my ideas on this. Because I tend to fall into the Amil camp, I do see that Christ has fulfilled most OT prophecies, rather than them needing to be seen yet in Israel. However...God uses shadows and types all throughout scripture. And I think it is perhaps shortsighted of us to think that there could not be more to go. For example...I think a lot of the Olivet Discourse is speaking of 70AD and the destruction of the temple. But could that event also been foreshadowing a greater event at the end? It's highly possible. So, I am still trying to carefully approach some of the OT prophecies that many say still need to be filled.
 

farouk

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Actually, I think we all need to challenge our perceptions. That includes you challenging my Amil beliefs. And we should all do, and receive, such challenges without defensiveness. Proverbs 27:17 says, "Iron sharpens iron,
and one man sharpens another.

By testing each other and being required to have an answer to what we believe and think scripture is saying, we surely must grow, yes? And if we can do so in an amiable manner, then regardless of whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing, we should, at the very least, end up more firmly rooted in what we believe scripture says. Wouldn't you say?
Hi, Naomi25: I suppose an iron sharpens iron question about 1 Thessalonians 4 would be: To whom does 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up' refer: to Israel? to the church?
 

Naomi25

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Hi, Naomi25: I suppose an iron sharpens iron question about 1 Thessalonians 4 would be: To whom does 'we that are alive and remain shall be caught up' refer: to Israel? to the church?

Do we need to separate the two? I know Dispensationalists do...that's one of the defining beliefs of their end times system. But to me, this just reads: any Christians (or elect) who are still alive at Christ's return will be caught up.
It just seems to me that the only disctinction between categories that the text gives is those that are dead, and those that are still alive, left upon the earth at that time.

Do you see another category? :)
 

farouk

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Do we need to separate the two? I know Dispensationalists do...that's one of the defining beliefs of their end times system. But to me, this just reads: any Christians (or elect) who are still alive at Christ's return will be caught up.
It just seems to me that the only disctinction between categories that the text gives is those that are dead, and those that are still alive, left upon the earth at that time.

Do you see another category? :)
I do think these verses refer to the church. There are many things that will still happen on earth. But it would seem logical that if it is the church AND Israel that is supposedly in view in these verses, then we would all have to look for what must first happen on earth - tribulation, etc. - before the church AND supposedly others would be caught up.

But I do believe strongly that we as the church show the Lord's death 'till he come' (1 Corinthians 11.26) and this is what we look for; not for disasters and the great tribulation (as distinct from the general tribulation principle).
 

Naomi25

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I do think these verses refer to the church. There are many things that will still happen on earth. But it would seem logical that if it is the church AND Israel that is supposedly in view in these verses, then we would all have to look for what must first happen on earth - tribulation, etc. - before the church AND supposedly others would be caught up.

But I do believe strongly that we as the church show the Lord's death 'till he come' (1 Corinthians 11.26) and this is what we look for; not for disasters and the great tribulation (as distinct from the general tribulation principle).

So, you see (correct me if I'm wrong!) that the Church and Israel must be separate, so that there is, essentially, a difference between the "like a thief" return, and the anticipated 'with signs' return - the one that must come after all the tribulation events?

I do understand how people see that. But, I suppose my question is: is that the most straight forward reading of the meaning of these texts? Does that understanding naturally come out of the reading, or must we go into those verses with a thought already formed of how the sequence of events must go?

And please understand, I am well aware that I bring my own suppositions and understandings to my own 'system' as well. We can't really escape it, I suppose! But I truly try to have an open mind when discussing these things. I want to learn and grow, especially if it is towards the truth. Thus far that has led me to where I am, but God is always full of surprises...not only in regards to where he takes us, but how!
 

Jay Ross

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Israel does not inherit "the whole earth" in future. Just the land between "the Nile and the Euphrates" (which would be able 10 times the land mass of modern Israel. But to deny that the Promised Land is indeed the Promised Land is to make God a liar.

... they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising… Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee… And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought... Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob...

The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
(Isa 60:3,5,10,11,16, 19-21)

Really, In Genesis the following can be read: -

Gen 1:1: - 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth { הָאָֽרֶץ [hā·’ā·reṣ]}
Gen 12:1: . . . .To an earth { הָאָ֖רֶץ [hā·’ā·reṣ]} that I will show you.
Gen 12:7: '. . . "To your descendants I will give this earth { הָאָ֣רֶץ [hā·’ā·reṣ]}."
Gen 15:7-11: - 7 Then He said to him, "I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this earth { הָאָ֥רֶץ [hā·’ā·reṣ]} to inherit it."
8 And he said, "Lord God, how shall I know that I will inherit it?"
9 So He said to him, "Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two. 11 And when the vultures came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:17-21: - 17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
"To your descendants I have given this earth { הָאָ֣רֶץ [hā·’ā·reṣ]}, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates — 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites." Source: - biblehub.com

In Genesis 12:1 God promises to give to Abraham the earth that He, God, would show Abraham, What is the earth that God will show Abraham? An earth that is to be filled with righteousness, not like the fallen earth that Abraham was living in.

Now in Genesis 1:1 hā·’ā·reṣ is translated as earth, whereas in the other four verses quoted above this transliterated word has been translated as "land" whereas a better understanding of God's promises to Abraham makes more sense if this transliterated word is also translated as "earth." Genesis 15:17-20 is God's response to Abraham's question of, "how shall I know that I will inherit it, i.e. the earth?" God response is to tell Abraham that He will give his descendants the following area of land, on the fallen earth but God provides no indication as to how long the land will remain in their possession. We know from scripture, that during Solomon's reign that Israel had dominion over the land as described in Genesis 15:18-20 but that soon passed from Israel's grasp.

Now you quoted Isaiah 60:21 and the key portion of this verse is best translated as: -

Also your people shall all be righteous;
They shall inherit the earth { אָ֑רֶץ [’ā·reṣ]} forever,
The branch of My planting,
The work of My hands,
That I may be glorified.​

Perhaps before you begin to admonish me for making God a liar, concerning my understanding of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants, that you might like to do a little more digging into God's word to establish whether or not I what I see is at all possible. Yes, Gen 15:18-20 has been labelled the promised land, but God's promise to Abraham is that he and his descendants will inherit the whole righteous earth that God will show them.

God's focus is not on a physical possession but in a spiritual change in Abraham and his descendants such that the earth that God will show then, still in our distant future, is an earth based on righteousness that will be filled by people who God judges righteous and worthy to receive the earth as their inheritance.

Shalom
 
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Enoch111

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In Genesis 12:1 God promises to give to Abraham the earth that He, God, would show Abraham, What is the earth that God will show Abraham?
There's no need to resort to absurdities to prove your point. God did NOT promise the earth to Abraham's descendants but the LAND between the Nile and the Euphrates.

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates...(Gen 15:18)

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ENGLISH TRANSLATION WHICH HAS "EARTH" IN THIS VERSE. Check Bible Hub. Which proves that you are deliberately distorting truth and promoting error. And the evidence that it is "land" is because it is defined by the boundaries of the Nile (the river of Egypt) and the Euphrates.

All I can say is shame on Christians who twist the truth to accommodate their erroneous ideas (or their fantasies).
 
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Jay Ross

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There's no need to resort to absurdities to prove your point. God did NOT promise the earth to Abraham's descendants but the LAND between the Nile and the Euphrates.

In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates...(Gen 15:18)

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ENGLISH TRANSLATION WHICH HAS "EARTH" IN THIS VERSE. Check Bible Hub. Which proves that you are deliberately distorting truth and promoting error. And the evidence that it is "land" is because it is defined by the boundaries of the Nile (the river of Egypt) and the Euphrates.

All I can say is shame on Christians who twist the truth to accommodate their erroneous ideas (or their fantasies).

Have it your way, then, but as for me and my household, we will believe the Lord for His Promises.
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi HIH! I don't mind chatting either here or privately...although if there's a lot of content to work through it might feel like we've "high jacked" the thread a bit if we do it here.

Agreed. I'm actually writing a Bible study on this right now, so maybe I can send you that in a few days. In the meantime I could send you some other things on it. I'll try to send you a conversation tomorrow. :)
It's interesting that you mentioned the "comes like a thief in the night" passage, and specifically in regards to believers, because there is that verse after that that says, "But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief." -1 Thessalonians 5:4

Exactly.
It would seem to be a contradiction to the other passages that also talk of "that day coming like a thief"...where Jesus is specifically talking to believers in that regard. But...there are no contractions in scripture, just limited understanding from those reading!
Do you suppose that 1 Thess 5:4 is highlighting the distinct difference between believers and unbelievers due to our knowing the signs beforehand, or do you think the verse is explained by verse 5, where is says that as we are children of light and of day, we will not be asleep...meaning, I suppose, that if we are diligent in watching for him, then we will, of course, be ready and not surprised.

Correct. It means we will not be taken by surprise. Pre-tribulationists tend to argue here that "no man knows the hour." But it's not talking about the hour. It's talking about watching to know the times and seasons (1 Thessalonians 5:1).

The two passages you may be referring to are these:
- “Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!” (Revelation 16:15). This one is addressed to the church, but again the stress is upon staying awake so that they not be taken unawares by His coming.

The other would be:
- "But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into." (Matthew 24:43). In this verse, the "master of the house" is Satan, who is the god of this world. The insinuation is that the church is what the Lord is coming to steal or "snatch" away from Satan before He unleashes destruction on the Antichrist's kingdom (similar to how He rescued out Noah and his family before the flood came. See verses 36-39), and Satan would therefore somehow move to try and prevent it if he knew when the thief was coming. Therefore he cannot know, so they would need to be prepared as those who did not know the exact hour (Matthew 24:44).

But again, this is about the exact hour of His coming, not the times and seasons which we very well should know. The exact wording in the Greek in Matthew 24:43 is "if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief comes...," which refers to a specific time during the night.
And...well, as I said, I'm still reading and researching to form my ideas on this. Because I tend to fall into the Amil camp, I do see that Christ has fulfilled most OT prophecies, rather than them needing to be seen yet in Israel. However...God uses shadows and types all throughout scripture. And I think it is perhaps shortsighted of us to think that there could not be more to go. For example...I think a lot of the Olivet Discourse is speaking of 70AD and the destruction of the temple. But could that event also been foreshadowing a greater event at the end? It's highly possible. So, I am still trying to carefully approach some of the OT prophecies that many say still need to be filled.

Absolutely! You have good spiritual eyesight! What actually takes place is the partial fulfillment of prophecy first, often within about a 100 years of when it is given, but with the ultimate fulfillment set to occur during the end-times. They are uttered during times when they appear to be on their way to fulfillment so that many hold to them and believe in the promises of God, but God knows in His foresight that their ultimate fulfillment will come later to prove His Divinity in prophesying events thousands of years in advance. It's something many don't understand.

It would appear there's a lot I can teach you. :) Like I said, I'll try to send you something tomorrow.
 
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