Biblical Proof Of A Pretribulation Rapture!

[Dave L]

that's not the verse or the prayer i was referring to.

Which verse do you mean?

 

[Dave L]

The quote is in my post. Read more carefully

If I missed it the first time, I apologize, but for sake of clarity, amidst the many words we've exchanged, please re-state it or point it out.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Which verse do you mean?

the one I said - but pray you will be counted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world to test its people.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If I missed it the first time, I apologize, but for sake of clarity, amidst the many words we've exchanged, please re-state it or point it out.

No. You can go back and read more easily than I can type the conversation over again, if you care to.

 

[Dave L]

No. You can go back and read more easily than I can type the conversation over again, if you care to.

I wish you would give me a chance to address this issue by either re-stating it or copying and pasting it into your reply.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I wish you would give me a chance to address this issue by either re-stating it or copying and pasting it into your reply.

I'm not real fluent in the whole multiquote thing dave. But I will try to lay it out.

You say the only way Israel will be grafted back in is through faith in Jesus. I agree.

There are many vss that say God has brought a temporary blindness on Israel, that there will come a time when it is lifted, that God will once more lead them into the desert and will again speak tenderly to them there.

I rejoice at those vss. Because I was blind as they now are and He let me see. I rejoice at them being able to see too.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not real fluent in the whole multiquote thing dave. But I will try to lay it out.

You say the only way Israel will be grafted back in is through faith in Jesus. I agree.

There are many vss that say God has brought a temporary blindness on Israel, that there will come a time when it is lifted, that God will once more lead them into the desert and will again speak tenderly to them there.

I rejoice at those vss. Because I was blind as they now are and He let me see. I rejoice at them being able to see too.

Thanks for presenting this. The way I understand it is. Jesus Is Israel in the New Covenant. Paul says this when he says Jesus is Abraham's seed (singular). And we who believe in him are also (in Galatians 3). Matthew also says this:

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) cp;
“And [Jesus, Mary and Joseph] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

So, it is into Jesus any broken off unbelievers will be grafted back, but only through faith in Christ. So the unbelievers are not Israel until they accept Christ.

Circumcision made one a Jew and a member of physical Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or member of physical Israel according to the bible. SO only through Christ will unbelievers become members of biblical Israel. (documentation and detail available if interested).

Thanks for your help in this.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thanks for presenting this. The way I understand it is. Jesus Is Israel in the New Covenant. Paul says this when he says Jesus is Abraham's seed (singular). And we who believe in him are also (in Galatians 3). Matthew also says this:

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) cp;
“And [Jesus, Mary and Joseph] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

So, it is into Jesus any broken off unbelievers will be grafted back, but only through faith in Christ. So the unbelievers are not Israel until they accept Christ.

Circumcision made one a Jew and a member of physical Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or member of physical Israel according to the bible. SO only through Christ will unbelievers become members of biblical Israel. (documentation and detail available if interested).

Thanks for your help in this.

Okay. And what of the verses i brought up?

 

[Dave L]

Okay. And what of the verses i brought up?

I searched through our discussions but remain in the dark about the ones you refer to. Please post them for sake of clarity.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

These ones dave.

There are many vss that say God has brought a temporary blindness on Israel, that there will come a time when it is lifted, that God will once more lead them into the desert and will again speak tenderly to them there.

I rejoice at those vss. Because I was blind as they now are and He let me see. I rejoice at them being able to see too.

 

[Dave L]

These ones dave.

This is true, but the blindness is lifted when God reveals Christ to them, as he did with us. National conversion? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. Times of the gentiles? They end at the end of the world.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [gentiles], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20)

“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost [end].” (1 Thessalonians 2:16)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is true, but the blindness is lifted when God reveals Christ to them, as he did with us. National conversion? Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. Times of the gentiles? They end at the end of the world.

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [gentiles], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” (Matthew 28:19–20)

“Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost [end].” (1 Thessalonians 2:16)

Okay, the whole nation? Maybe not. But at least you are acknowledging Hose a 2:14+

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thanks for presenting this. The way I understand it is. Jesus Is Israel in the New Covenant. Paul says this when he says Jesus is Abraham's seed (singular). And we who believe in him are also (in Galatians 3). Matthew also says this:

“When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1) cp;
“And [Jesus, Mary and Joseph] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

So, it is into Jesus any broken off unbelievers will be grafted back, but only through faith in Christ. So the unbelievers are not Israel until they accept Christ.

Circumcision made one a Jew and a member of physical Israel. When Jesus abolished circumcision, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or member of physical Israel according to the bible. SO only through Christ will unbelievers become members of biblical Israel. (documentation and detail available if interested).

Thanks for your help in this.

Following along. Those blind, cut off for our sake...will see. To support what you shared that the Lord IS Israel and there is no other way into Israel but through Christ...what is one blind of and can not see? It is Christ. The Pharisees couldn’t see Him in the OT. Many today can not see Him. But when their eyes are opened(by God) to the truth...they will see Him. Even the spiritual “blindness” is all about Christ. To be blinded is to not see Christ until sight is given to see Him.

Isaiah 60:1-4
[1] Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. [2] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [3] And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. [4] Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed (fed Spiritually) at thy side.

John 19:34
[34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

 

[Dave L]

While were on the topic, have you considered "the land of Israel" is not only Canaan, but the whole world in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham? Jesus Is Israel and the land of Israel is the whole world.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The earth sold into the bondage of sin? As our fleshly bodies must be changed from the corruptible into the incorruptible...so also the earth must change garments into Christ. The earth seeks after death, to put off the sinful lust of the flesh and to be raised glorified and clothed from above. “...desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven”. Earth raised, resurrected, in His power and glory.

Romans 8:19-25
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered (born again) from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. [23] And not only they , but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit , the redemption of our body. [24] For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [25] But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it .

2 Corinthians 5:1-4
[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2 Peter 3:11-13
[11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth(glorified), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[CoreIssue]

Your short hand response to my post is very confusing as to how you arrived at the statements that you used in your post above.

The rapture does not figure as a sign post as to when Israel will be restored.

Where does 218 years come from?

The river that flows out from under the altar of the temple is the river of life inhabited by the saints.

The Ezekiel 47 prophecy is not about Jerusalem, that is just the starting point for the stream of water flowing to form the flowing river.

The specific verse that I quoted from Daniel 7, that is verse 27, is about the Saints receiving their inheritance of all of the earth after God has judged the beast and the little horn.

Perhaps you may like to retry formulating your response again in a manner in which others can come to the same understanding as was in your mind when you began composing you post in response to my previous post.

Restoration of Israel comes well before the rapture.

The American Standard Version was published in 1900. 218 years ago.

Ezekiel is during the MK. That is where the river starts.

No mention of an altar or 4000 years.

Daniel is about the tribulation And MK.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus Is Israel and the land of Israel is the whole world.

And the Adventures of Alice in Wonderland are totally factual!

https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Alice-Wonderland-Lewis-Carroll/dp/B000KE6C1C

 

[Dave L]

And the Adventures of Alice in Wonderland are totally factual!

https://www.amazon.com/Adventures-Alice-Wonderland-Lewis-Carroll/dp/B000KE6C1C

Have you ever studied alternative views to your own from their point of view? There is safety in a multitude of councilors.

 

[teamventure]

The interesting thing is, fables and mythology actually have more basis in reality than Dave L's land of Israel is the whole world theory.

 

[Jay Ross]

Restoration of Israel comes well before the rapture.

Agreed, some 1,000 + years before the final rapture.

The American Standard Version was published in 1900. 218 years ago.

This reference to 218 years may be relevant to a person from the US but for one who is not a citizen of the United States, it is a meaningless statement to make without providing the context

Ezekiel is during the MK. That is where the river starts.

No mention of an altar or 4000 years.

Daniel is about the tribulation And MK.

I assume that your abbreviation "MK" is a reference to the Millennium Kingdom. If that assumption is true, then Ezekiel 47:1-12 does cover in the context of the overall prophecy, the 1,000 years of the MK. This prophecy covers a period of time from when Solomon's Temple was dedicated until the end of the MK. The threshold in the temple is the altar which supports the means of interacting with God, which is mentioned in the first verse of this prophecy: - Ezek 47:1: - ". . . flowing from under the threshold of the temple . . ." and the stream flows south under the wall before it begins to flow eastwards ". . . . toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar. He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side. . . .

And when the man went out to the east with the line in his hand, he measured one thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the water came up to my ankles. ​

. . . " Now a stream by definition is channelling water along its length and time is derived by dividing the distance by the velocity of the flowing water in the stream. Now I accept that the velocity of the water in the stream is not indicated in this prophecy, but velocity is defined as the distance traversed by a molecule of water within a prescribed period of time. What I have accepted, as have others before me, is that the stream is flowing at a velocity of one cubic per year and a such the man with the line measured out 1,000 years in time for the flowing water molecule, four times before the water flowed over the escarpment down into the valley below where the land/earth is healed.

From my research of the scriptures and the interlinking of various prophecies together along a timeline, the Ez 47:1-12 prophecy fits perfectly into the time line without any forced distortion in the time line to make it fit.

Now the prophecy that determines when Israel will be redeemed is found in Exodus 20:4-6, but it requires eye to see the four ages spoken about in this prophecy. Sadly, many previous scholars from the past were not able to understand the time period for this prophecy concerning when the visitation of their iniquities would begin and how long the visitation of their iniqu