Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[rebuilder 454]

You continue, and continue, and continue, to make claims without supporting scripture "Why"?

 

[David in NJ]

Stop the nonsense.
Try another approach.
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to the bible, the "going trough the trib" belief is not biblical.

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

This is POST-TRIB = they died during The Great Tribulation

 

[Truth7t7]

That dynamic, as you are spinning it, OMITS what the AC does.
It says EVERY MAN WOMAN AND CHILD WORSHIP HIM.
You are spinning it, most likely to protect some corner you painted yourself into.

You have not proven the AC is a non factor and never will.

The (Two Witnesses) will rule the earth through plagues, it's going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharoah of Egypt

It appears as if you want to completely disregard the scripture below "Why"?

Doesn't look like (The Beast) is ruling the earth to me, as seen in the scripture below

(All Plagues, As Often As They Will) WOW!!!!

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[David in NJ]

The (Two Witnesses) will rule the earth through plagues, it's going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharoah of Egypt

It appears as if you want to completely disregard the scripture below "Why"?

Doesn't look like (The Beast) is ruling the earth to me, as seen in the scripture below

(All Plagues, As Often As They Will) WOW!!!!

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Satan and the soon coming Beast is CLEARLY ruling on earth = Revelation chapters 1 thru 13

The Two Witnesses are on earth to confront the Beast, the MoB and the Jerusalem led world united against GOD.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture?

He thinks his own words are scripture. That's his problem. He never has exegeted even one verse of scripture. He thinks he doesn't need to do that because he thinks his own words are equivalent to scripture. It's unbelievable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Stop the nonsense.
Try another approach.
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Revelation 13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to the bible, the "going trough the trib" belief is not biblical.

So, you actually quoted some scripture for once. But, you didn't exegete a single verse of it. What exactly do you think those scriptures are saying? Show us how you interpret them and why.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, you are. You said "the effect of what you Arminians say is to diminish God's glory,". That is absolutely false and I explained why by showing how I see it.

Right, so I have never said... and will never say... that you believe this or that if you haven't explicitly said you believe that thing. You, on the other hand... <chuckles> But yes, I know and I am absolutely sure that you don't take away from or diminish God's glory, that never would you do such a thing, and that you would absolutely agree that all glory belongs to Him alone ~ Sola Gloria, in Reformation terms :) ~ that only He is worthy of that glory, and man's chief end is to glorify God (and enjoy Him forever). So I'm not "mis-respresenting" your beliefs, and to think I am is absolutely not the case. I'm not even saying you "how you see that" is wrong... quite the opposite. But by stating some of your beliefs... which you did, verbatim... things like:

• "belief comes before faith" (which is absolutely contrary to the aforementioned Scriptures from Ezekiel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Romans, Ephesians, and 1 Peter, among others)
• "synergism is... the combination of God working in us and us submitting to Him that keeps our salvation secure. Our part is to work our our own salvation with fear and trumbling. We have to be conscious of not grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. That is our responsibility.
• If we submit to God, He will work in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (which is absolutely contrary to Philippians 2:12-13)

...these beliefs, unintentional as it is do the following:

• make God's will out to be submissive, subservient, and/or secondary to man's (which is absolutely contrary to Romans 9)
• divide the glory for man's salvation between God and man so that God must share His glory with man (which is absolutely contrary to Isaiah 42).

Again, I know that you don't believe those things, but the effect of what you do believe, however unintended, is at least these two things. And that's just basic logic. Unavoidable inferences from what you have said. If you disagree, that is the effect, then fine, but you cannot call it a "strawman argument," because I'm not really making any statement whatsoever about what you believe except what you yourself have said... again, verbatim... you believe.

The rest of your post is stupid, and you're obviously just mad. Which is a very well-established pattern for you. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, so I have never said... and will never say... that you believe this or that if you haven't explicitly said you believe that thing. You, on the other hand... <chuckles> But yes, I know and I am absolutely sure that you don't take away from or diminish God's glory, that never would you do such a thing, and that you would absolutely agree that all glory belongs to Him alone ~ Sola Gloria, in Reformation terms :) ~ that only He is worthy of that glory, and man's chief end is to glorify God (and enjoy Him forever). So I'm not "mis-respresenting" your beliefs, and to think I am is absolutely not the case. I'm not even saying you "how you see that" is wrong... quite the opposite. But by stating some of your beliefs... which you did, verbatim... things like:

• "belief comes before faith" (which is absolutely contrary to the aforementioned Scriptures from Ezekiel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Romans, Ephesians, and 1 Peter, among others)
• "synergism is... the combination of God working in us and us submitting to Him that keeps our salvation secure. Our part is to work our our own salvation with fear and trumbling. We have to be conscious of not grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit. That is our responsibility.
• If we submit to God, He will work in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (which is absolutely contrary to Philippians 2:12-13)

...these beliefs, unintentional as it is do the following:

• make God's will out to be submissive, subservient, and/or secondary to man's (which is absolutely contrary to Romans 9)
• divide the glory for man's salvation between God and man so that God must share His glory with man (which is absolutely contrary to Isaiah 42).

Again, I know that you don't believe those things, but the effect of what you do believe, however unintended, is at least these two things. And that's just basic logic. Unavoidable inferences from what you have said. If you disagree, that is the effect, then fine, but you cannot call it a "strawman argument," because I'm not really making any statement whatsoever about what you believe except what you yourself have said... again, verbatim... you believe.

The rest of your post is stupid, and you're obviously just mad. Which is a very well-established pattern for you. <smile>

Wipe that stupid smile off your stupid face. Your post is as stupid as anything that anyone could ever imagine. As are the rest of your stupid posts and your stupid belief that God purposely creates people with no ability and no opportunity to have eternal life that are guaranteed to spend eternity in eternal torment. Now, THAT is stupid.

Nothing can be more stupid than to say God doesn't want all people to repent and to be saved, which stupidly contradicts scripture (Ezekiel 18:30-32, Ezekiel 33:11, Isaiah 55:6-7, Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9, Mark 2:16-17, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:11, etc.). You can't get any more stupid than believing that God did not send His Son to die for the sins of literally all people in the whole world so that whoever in the whole world who believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6).

 

[rebuilder 454]

The (Two Witnesses) will rule the earth through plagues, it's going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharoah of Egypt

It appears as if you want to completely disregard the scripture below "Why"?

Doesn't look like (The Beast) is ruling the earth to me, as seen in the scripture below

(All Plagues, As Often As They Will) WOW!!!!

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

I never denied anything about the 2 witnesses.


Show me where i denied anything about them.
It says the AC rules for 42 months

You are showcasing the wrath part of the 7 yr trib, then pretending the AC did nothing the bible says he did.

We agree that when the wrath part starts even the AC will run and hide.

I never insinuated any of what you are claiming

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never denied anything about the 2 witnesses.


Show me where i denied anything about them.
It says the AC rules for 42 months

You are showcasing the wrath part of the 7 yr trib, then pretending the AC did nothing the bible says he did.

We agree that when the wrath part starts even the AC will run and hide.

I never insinuated any of what you are claiming

It doesn't feel good to have your views misrepresented, does it? Now, you know how many of us feel when you misrepresent our views.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The (Two Witnesses) will rule the earth through plagues, it's going to be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharoah of Egypt

It appears as if you want to completely disregard the scripture below "Why"?

Doesn't look like (The Beast) is ruling the earth to me, as seen in the scripture below

(All Plagues, As Often As They Will) WOW!!!!

Revelation 11:6KJV
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

BTW, The beast. ( the AC) kills them.
You left that out.
You also left out that the wrath part of the trib is after they are caught up to heaven.

Rev 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.