Built On The Wrong Apostle

[BreadOfLife]

I would say being honest with yourself is the first step to Rom 10:9.

And I would say that this is the beauty of an open public forum.
Post #297 exposes your lie for ALL to see . . .

7.)Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068)

Yet another moronic anti-Catholic lie exposed . . .

 

[Enoch111]

The church for this age is built on the writings of the apostle Paul who was sent to the Gentiles by the Son of God, Jesus.

This is only partially correct. According to the New Testament:
1. Christ is both the Foundation and Chief Cornerstone of the Church (the Body of Christ).

2. The apostles and prophets are considered to be a part of this foundation also. So the writings of ALL the apostles (who were also prophets) are for the Church. At the same time ALL Scripture is for the Church (2 Tim 3:16,17).

3. While Acts 15 does not say anything about whether Jews should continue observing the Law of Moses, there are many other portions of the NT which make it clear that whatever applies to Gentile Christians also applies to Hebrew Christians.

4. Paul's Gospel is not any different from Christ's Gospel or Peter's Gospel. Peter mentions the shed blood of Christ in 1 Peter 1:18-20. There is only one Gospel, and all human beings since Abel were justified by grace through faith (Heb 11).

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can't find the phrase "Mother of God" in the Bible. Mary was the mother of Jesus, the man, the Son of Man. She was not the mother of the glorified God. Our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, Jehovah of the OT, the Creator of all, wasn't born of Mary or any other woman. He is the "I Am", the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. When the Bible is silent, we must also be silent. That's something the RCC never learned - they started creating their own "truths" from day one. Of course, the RCC is a political organization, a church in name only. And, of course, the brothers and sisters in Mk 6:3 are Mary's natural children, Jesus' brothers and sisters, just like it says.

Show me where the Bible says that Jesus was separated from His deity when He was inside of His mother's womb. Show me where it says that Mary gave birth to a mere human who LATER became God.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

Every doctrine of the RCC, that is founded on fake oral tradition, which Christ hated and spoke strongly against (mt 15:3, 6, Mk 7:9, 13), because it nullified the Word of God, is a lie, by definition. Christ's words in those passages nullify about 90-95% of all Catholic doctrine.

Show me documented evidence that 90-95% of Catholic doctrine is "nullified" by the words of Jesus.
Since Catholics and Protestants agree on more things than we disagree - YOU'RE making the claim the most of your Protestant doctrines are wrong as well.

You see - the problem with ignorant anti-Catholics like yourself is that you vomit out the same tired manure as your predecessors - but you can't back it up with Scripture OR history.[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

Amen! Mary gave birth to the vessel God jumped into. He wanted so save men so he became one. Claims that Mary is the mother of God are rediculous.

This wins the prize for "Stupid Quote of the Day".
Show me where the Bible makes this claim.

CHAPTER and VERSE . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Amen! Mary gave birth to the vessel God jumped into. He wanted so save men so he became one. Claims that Mary is the mother of God are rediculous.

I just took some more time to process this asinine statement because I couldn't believe what I was reading.
You actually said this.

AMAZING . . .

 

[H. Richard]

This is only partially correct. According to the New Testament:
1. Christ is both the Foundation and Chief Cornerstone of the Church (the Body of Christ).

2. The apostles and prophets are considered to be a part of this foundation also. So the writings of ALL the apostles (who were also prophets) are for the Church. At the same time ALL Scripture is for the Church (2 Tim 3:16,17).

3. While Acts 15 does not say anything about whether Jews should continue observing the Law of Moses, there are many other portions of the NT which make it clear that whatever applies to Gentile Christians also applies to Hebrew Christians.

4. Paul's Gospel is not any different from Christ's Gospel or Peter's Gospel. Peter mentions the shed blood of Christ in 1 Peter 1:18-20. There is only one Gospel, and all human beings since Abel were justified by grace through faith (Heb 11).

***
Since this is what you believe you should be able to explain why the believing Jews in Acts 21, only wanted to kill Paul and not James. Paul was teaching that no one will be saved based on the works of the law and James was teaching ??????????????????????????????

NO!, What I wrote is the truth. You can not show anyplace where Jesus and the 12 said we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. But you can show where Jesus and the 12 taught the Law of Moses.

You are using what Peter wrote near the end of his life as being what he believed all along. But the truth is that Peter did not know the Gentiles were to be included until God showed him a vision. So therefore, Peter did not know it on the day of Pentecost.

What Peter wrote in his letter was written many years after Paul's teachings. IMO he was reluctantly beginning to see the gospel of grace.

 

[Enoch111]

Paul was teaching that no one will be saved based on the works of the law and James was teaching ??????????????????????????????

James was definitely NOT teaching that anyone can be saved by the works of the Law. James says exactly what Peter and Paul said, that the Gospel is the seed of the New Birth. He calls it "the Word of Truth" and Peter calls it "the Word of God".

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:17,18)

You can not show anyplace where Jesus and the 12 said we are saved by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)
Did the disciples hear this from John the Baptist? Would that not mean that the blood of the Lamb of God would be shed, and did this not remind them of Isaiah 53?

And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying,Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)
Did the apostles not hear this and believe it, and teach it when they observed the Lord's Supper every week?

 

[Heb 13:8]

And I would say that this is the beauty of an open public forum.
Post #297 exposes your lie for ALL to see . . .

Yet another moronic anti-Catholic lie exposed . . .

It sure is, and everyone knows what spirit you folow and what language you speak

17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

It's not about us, it's about Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world.

God bless

 

[epostle1]

Matt Slick's rant list is false and dishonest. He grossly abuses the catechism to further his own agenda. Holding up what he says the Church teaches is to be deceived.

 

[Ac28]

Even though Christ was an apostle, He was officially a minister (and, apostle) only to the circumcision (Israel), Jn 1:31, and He was only sent (apostello) to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, Mt 15:24. Nowhere in the Gospels is there even a hint to tell us what our calling and the hope of our calling is. Someone asked Christ what he should do to receive eternal life and Christ told him to keep the commandments. Of course, this won't work for us Gentiles, since the 10 commandment were part of Israel's law and the closest Gentiles ever came to having to keep the law was with those 4 ordinances given to the saved Gentiles in Acts 15. Of course, these and all other ordinances for Gentiles, like water baptism amd the Lord's supper, were eliminated, according to Col 2:20 and others. Also, our salvation is based on our belief in what hadn't happened yet, His death, burial, and resurrection.

We have one apostle, Paul, and Paul is the last word for anything we want to know about what God's plan for us Gentiles is. Paul, unlike any of the 12, constantly received new revelations from Jesus Christ. Every word he said and wrote and everything he did was God-breathed. Here's a couple of instances of these revelations
2Cor 12:1
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
Eph 3:1-3
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

The mystery in Eph 3:3 was mentioned afore in Eph 1:9

And, the only other apostles, the 12, were 100% to Israel. The only Gentiles any of them ever ministered to was Cornelius, in Acts 10. The only reason Peter ministered to him was to pave the way for Paul's Gentile ministry. The 12 certainly shouldn't be asked about us Gentiles. Paul is it, period.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It sure is, and everyone knows what spirit you folow and what language you speak

17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

God bless

And not a SINGLE word of your verbose rant can cover up the LIE you told back in post #297.
In that post - YOU claimed:
"7.)Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068)"

This is a flat out falsehood that the Catechism doesn't claim.
Why don't you just admit that you LIED and try to get beyond it??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Even though Christ was an apostle, He was officially a minister (and, apostle) only to the circumcision (Israel), Jn 1:31, and He was only sent (apostello) to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, Mt 15:24. Nowhere in the Gospels is there even a hint to tell us what our calling and the hope of our calling is. Someone asked Christ what he should do to receive eternal life and Christ told him to keep the commandments. Of course, this won't work for us Gentiles, since the 10 commandment were part of Israel's law and the closest Gentiles ever came to having to keep the law was with those 4 ordinances given to the saved Gentiles in Acts 15. Of course, these and all other ordinances for Gentiles, like water baptism amd the Lord's supper, were eliminated, according to Col 2:20 and others. Also, our salvation is based on our belief in what hadn't happened yet, His death, burial, and resurrection.

We have one apostle, Paul, and Paul is the last word for anything we want to know about what God's plan for us Gentiles is. Paul, unlike any of the 12, constantly received new revelations from Jesus Christ. Every word he said and wrote and everything he did was God-breathed. Here's a couple of instances of these revelations
2Cor 12:1
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
Eph 3:1-3
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

The mystery in Eph 3:3 was mentioned afore in Eph 1:9

And, the only other apostles, the 12, were 100% to Israel. The only Gentiles any of them ever ministered to was Cornelius, in Acts 10. The only reason Peter ministered to him was to pave the way for Paul's Gentile ministry. The 12 certainly shouldn't be asked about us Gentiles. Paul is it, period.

Are you ever going to respond to post #343 - or are you just going to pretend I didn't catch you in any lies??

 

[Heb 13:8]

And not a SINGLE word of your verbose rant can cover up the LIE you told back in post #297.
In that post - YOU claimed:
"7.)Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068)"

This is a flat out falsehood that the Catechism doesn't claim.
Why don't you just admit that you LIED and try to get beyond it??

and you not understanding that you're preaching works salvation is denial and blindness in the grandness sense.

 

[epostle1]

and you not understanding that you're preaching works salvation is denial and blindness in the grandness sense.

We don't separate works from the grace of Christ. You create a straw man fallacy. The catechism does not say we are saved by our own efforts, your accusation is false. Salvation by works apart from the grace of Christ is called Pelagianism, a heresy condemned by the CC 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet the myth lives on.

These are the paragraphs cited by Matt Slick supporting his summary " Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works"

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."29 (it doesn't say "works".)

2080 The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason.

2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.78

As anyone can see, these paragraphs have little to do with the summary, unless you argue that the 10 Commandments are "works" and unnecessary for our salvation.

You have been deceived by the lies of Matt Slick, the CARM cult leader.

He knows his readers know nothing of the natural law, and he knows his readers won't check the catechism. He cherry picks paragraphs, falsifies summaries and forces them to fit his agenda.

 

[epostle1]

MATT SLICK AND THE "WORKS" DECEPTION

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial)...The Greek word for works of the law "ergon nomou” .

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses good works, in Greek it's “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

But Matt Slick makes no distinction, and falsely accuses Catholicism of teaching "works salvation". This is ridiculous. Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Matt. 25:40,45 – Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our good works, not works of the law.

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

Yet anti-Catholics refuse to grasp this simple concept, especially cult leaders like Matt Slick who demonizes the CC with lies.

 

[H. Richard]

MATT SLICK AND THE "WORKS" DECEPTION

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial)...The Greek word for works of the law "ergon nomou” .

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses good works, in Greek it's “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

But Matt Slick makes no distinction, and falsely accuses Catholicism of teaching "works salvation". This is ridiculous. Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Matt. 25:40,45 – Jesus says “Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me.” We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our good works, not works of the law.

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

Yet anti-Catholics refuse to grasp this simple concept, especially cult leaders like Matt Slick who demonizes the CC with lies.

***

You do a very good work of demonizing the RCC yourself since you continue to place your church above Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

***

You do a very good work of demonizing the RCC yourself since you continue to place your church above Jesus.

And YOU do a fantastic job of showing your abject ignorance about WHAT the Church is.

It's not Jesus AND the Church. It's not Jesus OR the Church.
Jesus EQUATES His very self with His Church:

Acts 9:4-5
He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice that Jesus DOESN’T say, “Why are you persecuting the Church?” (which is EXACTLY what Paul was doing). Jesus chose to equate the Church with himself.

- Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23). There is NO other.
- Jesus is Truth itself (John 14:6).
- Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
- The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Church is the Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The Church is the FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).
- Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
- Jesus gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

 

[BreadOfLife]

and you not understanding that you're preaching works salvation is denial and blindness in the grandness sense.

Then, perhaps YOU can who me where.

Neither I nor the Catechism preach a "works" salvation.
For YOU to say that we do is just another of our LIES . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

We don't separate works from the grace of Christ. You create a straw man fallacy. The catechism does not say we are saved by our own efforts, your accusation is false. Salvation by works apart from the grace of Christ is called Pelagianism, a heresy condemned by the CC 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. Yet the myth lives on.

and yet in the same breath, you say that believers in Christ can fall away and be sent to the lake of fire, which is false. you understand what the word grace means and you probably even know the definition, but have you accepted it into your heart. god bless.