Calling all Law Keepers.

[GodsGrace]

right. it is our choice to desire to be like Christ.
Let's be clear here. the power of the Holy spirit is not to do it all for us. We need to be actively striving to follow Christ's example from our own being.

God has made known that we are not supposed to kill via the OT and as an inclusion on the 2 greatest commandments so if prior to learning and committing to the Christ-ian way you used to kill people then going forward from the moment you made the commitment you will no longer kill by your own will.
This is a simple understanding on the path to following God's will so it should be easy to keep this by your own will without the Spirit having to tell you or remind you of it or take over your body to prevent it.
Here is a true example of what I am saying from the OT concerning intent and action and the Holy Spirit talking to Abimelech to help him;

Gen 20:3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 4But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

God can by his power prevent us from doing what is sinful and may in fact do that for us if it is our utmost desire to do what is right but, God will not counter what we are willingly determined to do so, if you look on a woman or man with lust and take no action to prevent it then it is entirely your will in opposition to God's.
I once had that very problem but I realized that I could do something to force the body to follow my desire / will. I stopped looking directly at women for a time and denied the fleshly desires of the body and after a while the spirit assisted my will to not have that fleshly desire creep in where I did not want it.
My will + the power of the HS to subdue the natural body = the ability to become more like Christ.

The reason I like your two posts so much is because they explain very well God's will vs our will.

I hear some say that it is Jesus IN THEM that keeps them from sinning.
This is really wrong theology because it would mean that when they do sin...it's Jesus making them sin!

It's nice to read your post because I see that you understand this.
The Holy Spirit is our HELPER, not our robot commander.

 

[Helen]

right. it is our choice to desire to be like Christ.
Let's be clear here. the power of the Holy spirit is not to do it all for us. We need to be actively striving to follow Christ's example from our own being.

God has made known that we are not supposed to kill via the OT and as an inclusion on the 2 greatest commandments so if prior to learning and committing to the Christ-ian way you used to kill people then going forward from the moment you made the commitment you will no longer kill by your own will.
This is a simple understanding on the path to following God's will so it should be easy to keep this by your own will without the Spirit having to tell you or remind you of it or take over your body to prevent it.
Here is a true example of what I am saying from the OT concerning intent and action and the Holy Spirit talking to Abimelech to help him;

Gen 20:3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife. 4But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation? 5Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this. 6And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her. 7Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

God can by his power prevent us from doing what is sinful and may in fact do that for us if it is our utmost desire to do what is right but, God will not counter what we are willingly determined to do so, if you look on a woman or man with lust and take no action to prevent it then it is entirely your will in opposition to God's.
I once had that very problem but I realized that I could do something to force the body to follow my desire / will. I stopped looking directly at women for a time and denied the fleshly desires of the body and after a while the spirit assisted my will to not have that fleshly desire creep in where I did not want it.
My will + the power of the HS to subdue the natural body = the ability to become more like Christ.

Agree, we choose, He enables us.
In fact I believe in Strong's the root meaning of grace is "God's ability in you to do what you cannot do.." If we look up the word grace in Strong's it doesn't say the right away...but following all the root meanings, that is the whole definition. ( some just say its 'God's unmerited favour'...but it goes much deeper than that...it is grace in action!)

Of interest .. minister friend of our taught the men in his group , that when the strong desire came on the to oggle at women...he said if you must look then turn the tables on the temptation..PRAY for them. Then you will find the Enemy stops trying to tempt, as he hates us praying for people. I thought was was very helpful and we have used it helping others annoy the devil
As you say...it is the integrity of the heart that is so important. It was Abrahams willing heart that was accounted to him for righteousness.

Thank you for the post...H

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you for your clearly laid out post. I believe that you are saying that we in ourselves cannot keep even the two love commandments but we have the Helper to empower and enable us to choose the good and shun the evil..right? Therefore it is our choice as it were, but Him in us doing the work, right?
If I have read your post correctly and that is what you are saying..then we are in total agreement.
Thank you for writing, much appreciated.

That's not what he's saying.
You give likes to persons who don't agree with you.
Maybe you should read the posts better?
Maybe I'm saying the same thing they are but you so dislike the words:
law, obedience, must, obey
that you just can't get over it?

Too bad.
GOD DEMANDS OBEDIENCE.
and WE MUST OBEY.
and THE LAW has not been abolished.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agree, we choose, He enables. In fact I believe in Strong's the root meaning of grace is "God's ability in you to do what you cannot do.." If we look up grace in Strong's it doesn't say the right away...but following all the root meanings , that is the definition. ( some just say God's unmerited favour...but it is much deeper than that)

As minister friend of our taught the men in his group , that when the strong desire came on the to oggle at women...he said if you must look then turn the tables on the temptation..PRAY for them. Then you will find the Enemy stops trying to temp as he hates us praying for people. I thought was was very helpful and we have used it helping others annoy the devil
As you say...it is the integrity of the heart that is important.
Thanks...H

How is it the integrity of the heart when one has to look away?
This is too funny...

 

[KBCid]

Nice post KBC.
Well said.

then the Masters voice resonates for you like it does for me.

 

[KBCid]

The reason I like your two posts so much is because they explain very well God's will vs our will.
I hear some say that it is Jesus IN THEM that keeps them from sinning.
This is really wrong theology because it would mean that when they do sin...it's Jesus making them sin!
It's nice to read your post because I see that you understand this.
The Holy Spirit is our HELPER, not our robot commander.

Yay!!!! There is no veil for you on this subject.
It would be just as you said "when they do sin...it's Jesus making them sin" or Jesus doing the sinning... God forbid.

 

[GodsGrace]

then the Master voice resonates for you like it does for me.

Absolutely yes.
And I'd go a step farther and say that JESUS is our master,
not Paul or James or Peter.

IF there is ever a time when we are not sure what a writer is saying, or it's difficult to understand because of how they spoke back then and the time that has passed....I ALWAYS go by what Jesus said.

Jesus words are those written in red.
God said This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
Mary said Listen To Him...Do Whatever He Tell You.
Mathew 3:17
John 2:5


I like to listen to God...

 

[KBCid]

Absolutely yes.
And I'd go a step farther and say that JESUS is our master,
not Paul or James or Peter.

Step concurred. Every being under Christ is a conduit for his voice to resonate through.

IF there is ever a time when we are not sure what a writer is saying, or it's difficult to understand because of how they spoke back then and the time that has passed....I ALWAYS go by what Jesus said.
Jesus words are those written in red.
God said This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased.
Mary said Listen To Him...Do Whatever He Tells You.
Mathew 3:17 John 2:5 I like to listen to God...

God would concur that they like you to listen to them.

 

[Armadillo]

If one has a law they cannot keep, and they wish to remain under grace, they are required to confess their sin and rebound.

Galatians 3:10, For all who rely on the works of the law, are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

The above verses do not say that a believer that fails to keep a law can fall from grace but the verses do say that those that put themselves under the law will be cursed and since believers are not under the law, they are under grace, why would they put themselves under the law when Jesus already did and Jesus justified them?

Hebrews 8:12, For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

Believers are not required to confess their sin, our sin was forgiven 2000 years ago. To confess sin is a work of the flesh and if you believe your sin is greater than God's Grace, then you don't need a Savior.

Jesus did not call the righteous to repent, to rebound.

Mark 2:17, On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Do the righteous repent? Sure, repent, rebound, change your mind about what God thinks of you. You are not a sinner saved by grace, you are not a sinner and a saint, you are a son/daughter and not a slave and you are the righteousness of God in Christ.

Romans 3:22, This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

 

[Dcopymope]

so replace the word "feel" with "think" then, or iow see that i meant "i am lately convicted that..."

also, see how the Q could be turned around on you, did you lose those friends because you felt that you should judge them for some reason, and not be encouraging them and a source of Good News, or because the Lord convicted you to ignore them when they no longer came around? Rhetorical Q, understand

No, I simply mentioned something concerning prophecy, and I could tell by their lack of response, the total silence that they weren't hearing any of it. You see, you think that when someone quotes scripture that its YOU judging them, when in actuality it is God doing the judging by his word. The word is a two edged sword and brings conviction. You don't even have to say anything pertaining to sin that would bring conviction, as was the case with me. Simply mentioning the Bible will be enough to get 'that look' from people. And yes, after that, maybe the Lord convicted me to leave them alone and move on in life, or "kick the dust off my feet" as Jesus once said.

 

[Dcopymope]

Sometimes D, it IS what we "feel".

In our walk with God we don't really go by feelings but by what we know.
If we feel abandoned by God at times, we can KNOW we aren't even though we Feel that we are.

But we can use our feelings also. With our conscience for instance.
If our conscience is properly formed, it will give us a bad feeling when we go against what we know to be right.

Just to say that sometimes we can trust our feelings too...

My two cents.

Well going by feelings hasn't worked out too well for me in life, especially when it comes to the word of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

The above verses do not say that a believer that fails to keep a law can fall from grace but the verses do say that those that put themselves under the law will be cursed and since believers are not under the law, they are under grace, why would they put themselves under the law when Jesus already did and Jesus justified them?

well then by the same token why put yourself under grace, if Jesus already paid the price for your sin, and you are automatically redeemed? It is the difference in "under the law" and "fulfills the law," seems to me.

The fact that you are no longer "under the law" does not mean that you do not have to keep the law, as Paul goes on about at length, and you demonstrate whenever you pay taxes, and otherwise avoid breaking the law. In contrast, by voting you are prolly putting yourself back under the law, by voluntarily participating where there is no law to break, but that is prolly another thread i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Believers are not required to confess their sin

ah, so "Confess your sins, one to another" does not apply to believers then?

 

[Armadillo]

well then by the same token why put yourself under grace, if Jesus already paid the price for your sin, and you are automatically redeemed? It is the difference in "under the law" and "fulfills the law," seems to me.

The fact that you are no longer "under the law" does not mean that you do not have to keep the law, as Paul goes on about at length, and you demonstrate whenever you pay taxes, and otherwise avoid breaking the law. In contrast, by voting you are prolly putting yourself back under the law, by voluntarily participating where there is no law to break, but that is prolly another thread i guess

well then by the same token why put yourself under grace, if Jesus already paid the price for your sin, and you are automatically redeemed? It is the difference in "under the law" and "fulfills the law," seems to me.

The fact that you are no longer "under the law" does not mean that you do not have to keep the law, as Paul goes on about at length, and you demonstrate whenever you pay taxes, and otherwise avoid breaking the law. In contrast, by voting you are prolly putting yourself back under the law, by voluntarily participating where there is no law to break, but that is prolly another thread i guess

I responded in spiritual matters, not worldly matters.

Yes, I pay taxes and follow the rules of the road and the rules at work and whatever rules there are that will throw me in jail or not throw me in jail if I break em, but there is that niggly voice in my head, "rules are made to be broken", and sometimes I break em. Shoot me.

And, we are all under Grace, not all have salvation. The only sin is unbelief.

 

[Armadillo]

ah, so "Confess your sins, one to another" does not apply to believers then?

Ah yes, that old chestnut, it sure doesn't take long for them to come out of the woodwork. Take the beautiful, life-giving scriptures posted and change the subject to prove the verses wrong but guess what? It doesn't prove the verses wrong. We cannot take the judgment for sins off Jesus and place it onto believers and God can't be angry at sin, He has been satisfied by the sin offering. Get it?

 

[bbyrd009]

No, I simply mentioned something concerning prophecy, and I could tell by their lack of response, the total silence that they weren't hearing any of it.

so then another way to say that is you proselytize your "friends," and hold them accountable to your perspectives on prophecy, yes? That might sum up their pov, iow.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well going by feelings hasn't worked out too well for me in life, especially when it comes to the word of God.

I understand.
Then use the words of jesus and you wont go wrong.
Sometimes it's not so easy to know the will of God.
We can only do our best...
Jesus understands our humanity and how fragile we are.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ah yes, that old chestnut, it sure doesn't take long for them to come out of the woodwork. Take the beautiful, life-giving scriptures posted and change the subject to prove the verses wrong but guess what? It doesn't prove the verses wrong. We cannot take the judgment for sins off Jesus and place it onto believers and God can't be angry at sin, He has been satisfied by the sin offering. Get it?

hmm, strikes me that "Who told you that you were naked?" is not ezackly an "angry" response anyway?

And am i understanding that me quoting "confess your sins" after you posted "a believer does not have to confess their sins" is somehow changing the subject? Maybe i snipped bad there, that is certainly possible:

Hebrews 8:12, For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

Believers are not required to confess their sin, our sin was forgiven 2000 years ago. To confess sin is a work of the flesh and if you believe your sin is greater than God's Grace, then you don't need a Savior.

so what i am hearing is that "confess your sins, one to another" somehow negates Heb 8:12, i guess in a way that i have not grasped yet

10But this is the covenant

that I will make with the house of Israel

after those days, says the Lord:

I will put My laws into their minds

and write them on their hearts. (sure doesn't sound like the law is being done away with just yet, huh)

I will be their God,

and they will be My people.m

11And each person will not teach his fellow citizen,n

and each his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,”

because they will all know Me,

from the least to the greatest of them.o

12For I will be merciful to their wrongdoing,

and I will never again remember their sins.


"For I will be merciful, and will not remember" seems a long way from "you do not have to confess your sins," wadr. I suggest the merciful and forgetting part is because they are all confessing their sins, that being "written on their hearts" at that point.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus did not call the righteous to repent, to rebound.

ha imo that is because Jesus knows better than to expect self righteous people to confess their sins, or in the case of someone truly righteous, they have no sin to confess, a la Job; who repented from his sin. So iow a TIC phrasing is being used, as we know that there are "none righteous."

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah yes, that old chestnut, it sure doesn't take long for them to come out of the woodwork. Take the beautiful, life-giving scriptures posted and change the subject to prove the verses wrong but guess what? It doesn't prove the verses wrong. We cannot take the judgment for sins off Jesus and place it onto believers and God can't be angry at sin, He has been satisfied by the sin offering. Get it?

You like those old chestnuts.
How's this...

John 20:23

Jesus said we are to ask forgiveness for our sins.

I sometimes wonder if His words count for anything anymore.