Calvinism is a Cult

[justbyfaith]

Unless God meets their self-righteous demands, they will never bow to Him. Unless He agrees with them on everything, He is not worthy of their praise and worship.

You seem to be suggesting that you believe that those who believe in free will have never bowed to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. This is simply untrue. My own heart is bowed to Him, and for intellectual and biblical reasons, I believe in free will. It has nothing to do with a heart issue for me.

It is clear from reading much of this thread that Christians cannot agree on even how we are saved. Wouldn't god clear this up somehow? It seems to be the most important thing ever.

Hi Vince, this only goes to show that there is a very real devil who works to bring discord and confusion, especially among his enemies, who are obviously the church

Other Christians use other verses to say repentance is not required, or god saves everyone or ..... The reason that sincere Christians come to different conclusions about salvation is because the bible is not clear. An example is this thread.

The Bible is very clear; however even those who claim faith in Jesus can get it wrong because of a hardened heart or whatnot. They reject certain doctrines and favour others because it suits their fancy. God inspired the Bible to be written in such a way that these concepts could be explored and in such a way that those who have the truth might be victorious over those who do not when contending for the faith, see Luke 21:15 and Acts of the Apostles 6:10. The Bible alone is not the source of the truth; but Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to those who would believe and obey Him (cf. Acts of the Apostles 5:32) and that He would guide them into all truth (John 16:13).

You like others here must ridicule and call other liars to maintain your theology in tact. Its not a gotcha question but a reasonable question based on the difference of opinion shown on this thread.

I'm in agreement with you Vince; and if I were not already radically saved, things like this would deter me from the faith. Christians are supposed to represent Christ; and some who claim to have faith represent Him in rather a lousy manner.

By their fruits you will know them.

Even as Paul called out Hymenaeus and Alexander, I think I should call out @Preacher4Truth on his bearing of bad fruit. I can mention it here and everyone will say, Amen, I see that, except for @Preacher4Truth himself; and a few of his cohorts may try to defend his honour since they are of the same doctrine and they would lose some kind of power if he is discredited. Nevertheless he is already discredited; I do not even have to say a word: his bad fruit is evident to all except the one who is spiritually blind to his own sin. But I say these things for his sake, in the hopes that he might see the truth and repent of his iniquity.

But you are here to sow discord. Not once have you actually wanted to learn anything new; you are perfectly content sitting there feeling self-justified and poking fun at those who refuse to join in your self back-patting.

I would mention that having a hyper-critical spirit is a sign of bearing bad fruit; but unfortunately, I am becoming like the fool in his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes (Proverbs 26:4-5).

If you don't do this and this and this you are not a Christian.

I believe that even in Calvinism, if you do not repent and believe in Jesus Christ, it is a sign that you are not saved, even though for the Calvinist regeneration comes first. Is it not true that repentance and faith are inevitable if one is truly saved? Therefore if you have not repented and placed your faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the Cross, you ought to question as to whether you are one of God's elect, see 2 Corinthians 13:5. Because if you have not done so, you have definitely not been saved yet from the perspective of time.

He chooses some and not others because it brings Him glory to do so.

This kind of concept does NOT bring God glory, as a matter of fact. It makes Him out to be some kind of cosmic Monster who arbitrarily puts some in hell and then saves others so that being in hell will sting all the more. Those who go to hell do not have any choice in the matter; they are simply murdered over something that they didn't have any control over. Adam sinned and they inherited sin from Adam; and they have to pay for Adam's sin with their own burning flesh. The God who gives man free will is much more just and merciful; those who go to hell in His order have only themselves to blame: but in the Calvinistic order they can blame that god for all kinds of things: God's sovereign choice of them not having heard, God putting the tree in the garden so that inevitably Adam and Eve would partake of its fruit, God's sovereign choice of electing them to damnation so that even having heard they could not make a choice to receive Him and be saved, because it was all His choice: and therefore those who are in hell can just say to the God who put them there, that they are satisfied because he will not be able to live with himself in his conscience having murdered them, or that those whom he has chosen to live with in heaven cannot have a good conscience and therefore that evil will eventually turn in on itself and those populating heaven will end up fighting amongst themselves over wrongs that they commit against each other. Because they have no conscience.

I am not disputing this. I am asking why god would allow such variations in salvation theology since it is such a serious thing to get right.

I believe that Jesus said it best in Matthew 7:13-14 and in Jeremiah 29:13 and Deuteronomy 4:29:

Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jer 29:13, And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Deu 4:29, But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

God wants people who will love Him for who He is; and in this He created a system in which men must seek Him with all of their hearts in order to be able to find Him.

In this way the Lord siphons out those who would be unworthy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can you clearly lay it out then?

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31] That’s as clear as it gets.

 

[justbyfaith]

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31] That’s as clear as it gets.

No; what you believe is, If (the) god (of Calvinism) has chosen you to be saved you will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a reverse order than what the holy scriptures teach.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You like others here must ridicule and call other liars to maintain your theology in tact. Its not a gotcha question but a reasonable question based on the difference of opinion shown on this thread.

Lol!!! I thought you liked facts? Fact is they've lied as many can attest. They also offer insults and name call when challenged, well known fact. If you had actually read objectively through here you'd see that.

Nowhere have I offered ridicule, just an observation of your behavior and OCD with your perpetual question. You think you have something with it but you've been answered and refuted.

You're not even objective because the Gospel isn't based on opinion but exegeted facts from proper context of Scripture. Your lame argument that we point out liars to keep our theology intact is senseless drivel and logical idiocy.

As an avowed atheist you should know this is how conclusions are derived from texts: by using proper context in interpretation. That goes with any document, not just Scripture.

You've merely rushed into this thread and have shown your ignorance of the positions. You're simply be opportunistic in order to sow discord and attempt to cast doubt on God and his word, you have no real arguments, just an agenda.

It's a gotcha question for sure, and you save your ridicule through your fatalmoves account. Too ironic you both joined close together and are on the same objective.

Do you not understand there are false gospels, and only one true? If you did then you'd see your argument is shallow and baseless.

 

[Vince]

That is why God enjoins us to read His Word under the tutelage of His Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:27--> "But you have received the Holy Spirit and He lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the [Holy] Spirit teaches you everything you need to know and what He teaches is true..."

This is my point. Many people claim to have the spirit and disagree on how people are saved. What I have seen here is that Christians who don't believe the same thing as themselves on salvation are labeled as false converts, don't have the spirit etc.

We know from the New Testament that there are some who do not have the Holy Spirit driving their study of the word of God. In Acts 8:30, the Apostle Philip, under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, approached the Ethiopian Eunuch, who had been in Jerusalem to worship at the Temple. Philip notices that the Eunuch is reading from an Isaiah scroll and asks, "Do you know what you are reading?" The Eunuch replies, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" The Eunuch had been reading aloud from Isaiah 53 and Philip begins his Gospel presentation with an explanation of Who is being spoken of in Isaiah 53 (written 700 years before the birth of Jesus). The Eunuch became a believer and asked Philip to baptize him in the stream on the spot where the Eunuch ordered his carriage to stop. We presume that the Eunuch was a true believer because Philip had been directed to him by the Holy Spirit. But there are those who are not true believers and thus are not being guided by the Holy Spirit in their study of the word. (see Romans 8:9) Others are true believers but they are blinded by their need to be right in their own estimation rather than God being right under all circumstances. The Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 11:19--->"But of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God's approval [for proper teaching] will be recognized."

This answers why there is division but not why god allows it on such an important topic.

Look up the Council of Jerusalem. Religion makes its decisions on the basis of what it wants to be true. Faith decides what is true under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There is a vast difference between religion and faith.

How can one tell the difference?

 

[SovereignGrace]

And NOW, you compound your error with the insistence that babies are "imputed" with Adam's sin, as was Christ??! How is that not justifying the crucifixion of Christ all over again (since babies die every day)? And how does that not fly in the face of Ezekiel 18:4? I don't know who your god is, but it is not the God I find in Scripture. Can you honestly say that Jesus would teach such a thing? Please stop calling me, "my sister" as if it were the evidence of your piety. I expect that you don't consider me your sister at all, either in Christ or in any other way since you and your cohorts say that you are praying for the "conversion" of non-Calvinists. That's the problem with you Calvinists, you think that you are in some exclusive intellectual club. You have elevated yourselves to the "elect", and you think you are incapable of misrepresenting God. Anyone who takes the murderer, John Calvin as their spiritual leader has rocks in his/her head and heart.

Sissy, I never said the Christ was imputed with Adam’s sin. The Christ is forever sinless. Seeing His Father is God the Father and not a mortal man, He was not imputed the sin of Adam as you and I are. He was imputed the sins of His sheep in Gethsamane when He drank that bitter cup. Read Psalm 75:8 and you’ll see what was in that cup.

You are coming unglued my Sister. I have been very cordial with you trying to get you to see the error you are proffering. Now you are accusing me of serving another god(which is idolatry), and I have not mentioned John Calvin, but it’s odd that every time a conversation breaks down, your side of the debate insults him. I don’t know what exactly happened and neither does anyone else. He’s been dead for 454 years. It’s time to let it go. He will get a righteous judgment some day when He stands before the Lord.

Now to answer your Ezekiel 18:4 verse...

This is talking about temporal death. Read on in Ezekiel 18:20 says ”The person who sins shall die.” Soul in verse 4 is nephresh which can also mean body, although in most places it does mean soul. But soul also refers to ppl as it says in 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The NASB uses persons in place of souls, which is what the KJV uses.

So, it’s talking about temporal death here my Sister.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Can you clearly lay it out then?

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31]

 

[Vince]

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31] That’s as clear as it gets.

Really? How about these verses.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9 NIV

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. Acts 3:19 NIV

“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mark 1:15 NIV

Is confession necessary or repentance necessary? This is what I mean by it being unclear.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31]

That's too clear.

Vince wants to beat his dead horse regardless of the fact he already knows God has allowed there to be false gospels and one true Gospel.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sissy, I never said the Christ was imputed with Adam’s sin.

Somebody did...Maybe I will go back and check to see if it was you or one of your cohorts....forgive us if we lump all of you together! You purport a certain doctrine and so i expect that you would be unified in that doctrine, 1 Corinthians 1:10.

It’s time to let it go. He will get a righteous judgment some day when He stands before the Lord.

I think that the point being made is that Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. So if Calvin can be identified as a false prophet by examining his fruits today, we ought to be very wary of his doctrine.

Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.[Acts of the Apostles 16:31]

No; what you actually believe is, Be saved and you will then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! However you cannot save yourself; God has to choose you for this against your will and you cannot choose it for yourself.

.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Really? How about these verses.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9 NIV

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. Acts 3:19 NIV

“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mark 1:15 NIV

Is confession necessary or repentance necessary? This is what I mean by it being unclear.

The only thing unclear is your ability to properly interpret Scripture.

1 John is written to believers. If you were ever Reformed you'd know this. Thing is, you weren't. You've never been a believer.

Also it is obvious the jailer repented. Context.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This is my point. Many people claim to have the spirit and disagree on how people are saved. What I have seen here is that Christians who don't believe the same thing as themselves on salvation are labeled as false converts, don't have the spirit etc.

Actually, you rarely see the criticism that someone is not understanding or operating under the direction of the Holy Spirit in discussions today. Those who accuse others of being "false converts" are treading on dangerous ground. Jesus said that blasphemy against the Father and the Son would be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is accusing someone of operating under a demon when they are following the Holy Spirit. The Jewish religious teachers of Jesus' day did such a thing.

This answers why there is division but not why god allows it on such an important topic.

He doesn't but He gives humans their freedom to believe anything they want to believe--even if it is a lie. He has presented His Truth in the pages of Scripture. We must let Scripture speak to us, rather than imposing meaning on it based on our own thoughts. When two Christians disagree, one or both of them are incorrect.

How can one tell the difference?

Christians joke that they are "fruit inspectors" when it comes to which teachers should be believed. Jesus taught us to look at the life of a prophet/teacher for determining who is teaching the truth. (Matthew 7:15-16). If their lives don't evidence, "...fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control..." (see Galatians 5:22-23) then they are false teachers and we should not listen to them. Admittedly, it is difficult to tell in an online forum. We all tend to agree on the basics of salvation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Romans 10

6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

By Faith, not Predetermination.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sissy, I never said the Christ was imputed with Adam’s sin.

.
.
.

When the Christ stood before His Father, He stood in the place of sinners, as a sinner. He never sinned once, but was reckoned a sinner. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.[2 Corinthians 5:21] He was not a sinner, yet when He was imputed our sins, He was treated as a sinner. Now, all who are saved, even though they are sinners, stand justified before the Father via the imputed righteousness of the Christ.

Babies are born with Adam’s sin imputed unto them. Just as the Christ was reckoned a sinner, though He never sinned even once, babies are reckoned as sinners, even though they have never sinned.

So, you never said that Christ was imputed Adam's sin. But there is confusion; because you said that Christ is imputed our sins; and our sins are imputed to us because of Adam. Therefore, by extension, Christ is imputed with Adam's sin. I think you are intelligent enough to see the logic here.

 

[Vince]

Do you not understand there are false gospels, and only one true? If you did then you'd see your argument is shallow and baseless.

This is my question though. How to know what is true. I can read the bible and find contradictions on what it takes to be saved. These are verses in context that mention nothing about repentance or confession and other verses require it for salvation. Calling me a liar does not solve this problem.

 

[CoreIssue]

The only thing unclear is your ability to properly interpret Scripture.

1 John is written to believers. If you were ever Reformed you'd know this. Thing is, you weren't. You've never been a believer.

Also it is obvious the jailer repented. Context.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 Jn 1:9 NIV

This is written to those who need salvation but do not have it. It's so salvation comes via repentance in free will.

Calvinists do not believe this.

Satan believes in God, that he will go to the lake because of his rebellion.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is my question though. How to know what is true. I can read the bible and find contradictions on what it takes to be saved. These are verses in context that mention nothing about repentance or confession and other verses require it for salvation. Calling me a liar does not solve this problem.

In my own life my personal prayer, was, God, I don't know if You're real; but I am going to start reading your word and doing what it says; and I know that if You're real You will reveal Yourself to me. God immediately showed up and gave me a taste of heaven. I'm not saying He will do the same for you. But the point being, that if you seek Him for the truth, and trust that He is giving it to you through His word, then you can know that at any given moment, you have the truth that you need for that moment.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Somebody did...Maybe I will go back and check to see if it was you or one of your cohorts....forgive us if we lump all of you together! You purport a certain doctrine and so i expect that you would be unified in that doctrine, 1 Corinthians 1:10.



I think that the point being made is that Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. So if Calvin can be identified as a false prophet by examining his fruits today, we ought to be very wary of his doctrine.



No; what you actually believe is, Be saved and you will then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ! However you cannot save yourself; God has to choose you for this against your will and you cannot choose it for yourself.

.

Hi, Justbyfaith. You are doing a good job here. When you debate Calvinists, have you ever seen a Calvinist deal with Jeremiah 29:13? I haven't but I was wondering if you have. Jeremiah 29:13---> "If you look for Me wholeheartedly, you will find Me. I will be found by you."

 

[Vince]

1 John is written to believers. If you were ever Reformed you'd know this. Thing is, you weren't. You've never been a believer.

So a non believers sins are forgiven differently than a believers sins?

Also it is obvious the jailer repented. Context.

Here is the entire context. Where does it imply that he repented.

16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling.
17 She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.”
18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
19 When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.
20 They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar
21 by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.”
22 The crowd joined in the attack against Paul and Silas, and the magistrates ordered them to be stripped and beaten with rods.
23 After they had been severely flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was commanded to guard them carefully.
24 When he received these orders, he put them in the inner cell and fastened their feet in the stocks.
25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them.
26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.
27 The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped.
28 But Paul shouted, “Don’t harm yourself! We are all here!”
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized.
34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.
35 When it was daylight, the magistrates sent their officers to the jailer with the order: “Release those men.”
36 The jailer told Paul, “The magistrates have ordered that you and Silas be released. Now you can leave. Go in peace.”
37 But Paul said to the officers: “They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out.”
38 The officers reported this to the magistrates, and when they heard that Paul and Silas were Roman citizens, they were alarmed.
39 They came to appease them and escorted them from the prison, requesting them to leave the city.
40 After Paul and Silas came out of the prison, they went to Lydia’s house, where they met with the brothers and sisters and encouraged them. Then they left.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi, Justbyfaith. You are doing a good job here. When you debate Calvinists, have you ever seen a Calvinist deal with Jeremiah 29:13? I haven't but I was wondering if you have. Jeremiah 29:13---> "If you look for Me wholeheartedly, you will find Me. I will be found by you."

Hey, I agree with that verse. Those who look for Him will find Him. But the fallen man’s inclination is not to seek for Him. That is why God seeks and finds them.