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Calvinism is a Cult

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by CoreIssue, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Secular definition.
     
  2. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    I see Him when I see Christians feeding the poor, helping them with their burdens and loving them enough to tell them about Him. I see Jesus when I look into the face of a small child who is just learning about who He is and wanting to hear more--as they always do.

    The evidence is wide and varied. First, we have the witness of the OT. You apparently have no understanding of just how important the Hebrew Scriptures are to God's people and how rigorous were the rules that have always been used for preserving them. The ancient Hebrew scrolls of the Tanakh, which were discovered, sealed in clay pots in the caves of Qumran (after being there for about 2,000 years) showed Israeli scholars that there were NO substantial changes from that time to the currently used Tanakh. It predicts the advent of the Messiah and Jesus perfectly fulfills all of the prophecies.

    Second, we have the NT. The gospels were lovingly copied and recopied with the copies being sent out to circulate through the churches. In the very early Church they were copied by Jewish Christians, using the same rigorous rules for manuscript preservation. Importantly, there were people still alive, during that time who would have known of the events described in the gospels and would have spoken out--so serious was the alteration of the truth thought to be in the early Church. Even after the last Apostle had died, there were huge portions of the N.T. writings quoted in the writings of the Greek Fathers. Irenaeus, (a student of Polycarp's, who was, in turn, a student of the Apostle John) took on the task of fighting gnosticism. Irenaeus' writings included great portions of the N.T. writings. It has been said that even if all the New Testaments in the world were destroyed, we could re-constitute them from the writings of the Greek Fathers, who took great pains to include long passages of the New Testament writings (and the gospels were considered to be the most important). The Greek Fathers well-understood the nuances of meaning in the original Koine Greek. In addition, the letters of the Apostles to the early believers were treated as Scripture from the time that they were penned. Finally, (and this is all just off the top of my head so I may have missed some important points) we have the Codex Sinaiticus, discovered in the 19th century in a Greek monastery in Egypt. It dates from the early 300s A.D. and is essentially identical to the New Testaments which we use today. There is an unbroken chain of reliability.



    And that is a carefully crafted dodge of the issue of origins. If Evolution does not concern origins, why do so many evolutionists spend so much time and money fruitlessly researching origins? Professor and biochemist, Michael Behe's new book, Darwin Devolves asks new, very difficult questions for evolutionists to answer, based on the most recent data from molecular biologists and genetics researchers. Evolutionists are getting quite shrill and hysterical in denouncing him (rather than admit that they cannot refute the evidence that he presents against evolution). One reviewer compared Behe to "anti-vaxers!" among other demonizations. LOL
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Amen...
    Matthew 16:4
    "Only an evil, adulterous generation would demand a miraculous sign, but the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah." Then Jesus left them and went away."

    Luke 16:31
    "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
     
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  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Try the calendar...we currently live in the year 2019 Anno Domini...in the year of our Lord.

    Jesus' 33 years of life; and His death, burial, and resurrection had a profound impact on history.

    But even though you know this, I would venture to say that it is not enough to convince you...because believing in Christ is a heart issue and not an intellectual one.

    Fact is, there is probably something in your life that, if you gave your heart to Christ, you would have to give up, and you simply don't want to give that thing up. You therefore choose not to believe in the reality of the gospel so that you can keep your sin. It is really very quite common.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  5. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    So when I feed the poor you would not see Jesus? How would you tell if a person feeding the poor was christian or not? I doubt you actually see Jesus.

    This is a different discussion but he did not fulfill all the prophecies about him. Although when Christians are confronted with this they just say he will in the future.

    I agree they were accurately recorded and copied. How is this proof they were inspired by god? I was a christian for 18 years but careful study has lead me to acknowledge that there is not enough evidence to believe. I am sure you are thinking that I never was a christian in the first place but you would be wrong.

    Scientists like to find things out, right? They want to know how life started. The theory of evolution is not a theory of origins but of life changing over time. Evolution does not hinge on how life started, it is the best theory we have of how life came to be how it is today. It has lead to many medical and agricultural advances that has benefited people.

    As for me I really don't care if evolution is true or not. It has no bearing on whether god exists or not. So discussions whether evolution is true or not seems pointless to me.
     
  6. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Seriously? This is proof people believe Jesus was god not evidence he was god.

    I think there is enough evidence to believe he existed, not enough to believe he was dead and resurrected.

    What do you mean by heart issue? Feeling? Emotions?

    This is ridiculous and condescending. Atheism is not an emotional response to a god claim but a reasoned one. Christians still sin after they are saved right? So what does it matter? I was a christian for 18 years, gave up a lot of things but I still sinned. My position is simple, I don't believe there is enough evidence to believe. That seems to upset Christians so they give all kinds of answers such as yours instead of providing evidence.
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

    If you were a true Christian and then fell away, then it is impossible to bring you to repentance (Hebrews 6:1-8) so there is no point in continuing this discussion as far as I'm concerned.
     
  8. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    I see them at our church-funded food bank and clothes closet. How did you think I would see them? Whenever I see anyone feeding the poor, I see the providence of God (from whom ALL blessings flow) but I do not see the Savior in what they do.

    No, but then Jesus' disciples did not actually see the Father either. They did see Him who is the embodiment of the Father. Just as I see Jesus in Christians who are the Body of the Savior in this world.

    That is not illegitimate. We know that He will leave none of the prophecies undone--that some were for the 1st Advent and some for the 2nd Advent. The ancient rabbis were confused by the two sets of events. They assumed that there would be two Messiahs ("Messiah Ben Joseph" and "Messiah Ben David") each accomplishing His own tasks. We understand that it is the same Messiah who comes twice. Jesus' disciples in Acts 1:6 asked the Risen Jesus anxiously if that was the time when He would restore the Kingdom to Israel. He did not deny that the Kingdom would one day be restored to Israel, He merely said that only the Father sets those dates. He then pointed them to the task at hand--that of telling the world about Him.

    There is no such thing as "proof" when it comes to faith (do I really need to quote Hebrews 11:1 for you?). If you were a practicing Christian for 18 years, you should know that. If you were a real Christian then, you are a Christian still--although it seems that you are currently a rebellious and disobedient one.

    "Life changing over time" is still a triviality. Of course life changes slightly over time but, as Michael Behe points out, unfortunately, when mutations occur, they cannot occur without breaking genes and that frequently puts an end to the creature when the number of broken genes becomes deadly. It is not evolution that is occurring, but rather devolution. All world-class geneticists understand the problem but are whistling through evolution's graveyard.

    Mmmm--name one. Despite all the trumpeting for gene tamperers, all the genetic tinkering that has been done, using new technologies, almost always ends in disaster. They are now talking about altering germ lines and that promises to be a total disaster as whatever mistakes they make will be carried forward in future generations and accelerate the great extinction that is coming. It seems that God did not intend unending generations of mortal humans.

    Sure it does. When one refutes the hypothesis of evolution, one refutes materialism as the driving force of the universe.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It actually means he never was a Christian.

    The verse is not talking about one who was saved., but one who shared in the Holy Spirit.

    How does one lose the Holy Spirit, become unbaptized in the Holy Spirit, put Christ back on the cross and make Romans 8 a lie when it says all the way to glorification no one can take a saved person from the hand of God?

    You just said God lied.
     
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  10. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    I don't think "justbyfaith" was actually saying that "God lied". I think he was just misunderstanding the point of the passage. Yes, it is true that those who actively renounce any profession of Christ and join His enemies are unlikely ever to come to repentance. That is abject apostasy. I don't see Vince that way (yet--but he is apparently treading dangerous ground) I see him as either never having truly come to Christ OR actually having come to Christ and then allowing the devil to plant seeds of doubt and rebellion so that he is an extremely weak, rebellious and sinful Christian (he, for example breaks the First Commandment every day that He is not devoted to God). It could be that he was a "cultural Christian"--raised in a Christian family and in the church but never having truly "resolved to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified" 1 Corinthians 2:2 and "let God be true and every man a liar". (Romans 3:4)
     
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  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    He stated he was a Christian for 18 years.
     
  12. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    That doesn't mean he was one anymore than being in a garage for 18 years makes one a car. ;)

    It has been my experience that many "cultural Christians" THINK they are Christians because they may have "professed" Christ at some youth rally or something--it might have seemed like a popular thing to do at the time. But many have never truly given their lives to Christ after considering the cost. Salvation is a free gift, but one that will sooner or later cost you something. It is the point that "cultural Christians" often fall away from the truth and "believe" lies in order to please other people.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
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  13. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my point.

    He claimed he was and now is not. Even after being presented with Romans 8 he argued one could cease to be saved.
     
  14. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    Yes, if he was ever saved, he is still saved. But he may come to regret the time he wasted being out of fellowship with Christ.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It is only the fear of the Lord that operates as a safeguard against falling away as a believer...if you have the fear of the Lord, you cannot fall away...but if you do not have it, then I would say that you can indeed walk away from salvation.

    Scriptures:

    Jhn 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    Jhn 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    Jhn 10:29, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    Jhn 10:30, I and my Father are one.


    Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
    Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
    Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

    Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.


    In the first of these scriptures, no one can snatch you out of the Lord's hand; however, you can leave the Lord's hand of your own free volition.

    The latter two scriptures teach us that the fear of the Lord is the only safeguard against this happening.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  16. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    A person can believe for a while and then fall away according to Luke 8:13.
     
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    AGREE
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    No.
     
  19. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    If a person is in fellowship with God, and has the Holy Spirit imparted on him, his heart forever belongs to God. There is no 'regressing', or 'going back'. When a person is saved, he is secure in the arms of God.
     
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  20. Lady Crosstalk

    Lady Crosstalk Active Member

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    Yes, I agree--the fear of the Lord is an essential part of conversion. It is part of the conviction of the Holy Spirit (see Isaiah 11:2). We are told that the "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" and there is no wisdom apart from Christ. Too often, "Christians" go off as lambs to the slaughter when they go to university and come in contact with atheistic fools who appear to be "the smartest people in the room". They end up wanting to please men instead of wanting to please God (and the Apostle Paul warned us about that).
     
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