Calvinism is NOT a Cult!

[CoreIssue]

Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

What do you not understand about WHOLLY LOST ALL ABILITY OF WILL? I am honestly baffled at this blatant ignoring of fact and claiming it says the opposite.



This is so blatantly wrong that even secular Wikipedia knows. The Presbyterian Church was the one that wrote the confession in the first place!


Presbyterian history is part of the history of Christianity, but the beginning of Presbyterianism as a distinct movement occurred during the 16th-century Protestant Reformation. As the Catholic Church resisted the reformers, several different theological movements splintered from the Church and bore different denominations. Presbyterianism was especially influenced by the French theologian John Calvin, who is credited with the development of Reformed theology, and the work of John Knox, a Scotsman and a Roman Catholic Priest, who studied with Calvin in Geneva, Switzerland. He brought back Reformed teachings to Scotland. The Presbyterian church traces its ancestry back primarily to England and Scotland. In August 1560 the Parliament of Scotland adopted the Scots Confession as the creed of the Scottish Kingdom. In December 1560, the First Book of Discipline was published, outlining important doctrinal issues but also establishing regulations for church government, including the creation of ten ecclesiastical districts with appointed superintendents which later became known as presbyteries.[22]

In time, the Scots Confession would be supplanted by the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the Larger and Shorter Catechisms, which were formulated by the Westminster Assembly between 1643 and 1649.



Now this I may actually be able to agree with. There is a difference between Calvinism, and what people think is Calvinism, which is actually called hyper Calvinism. 2 totally different things



Bold claim. Would love to see the facts that show that the Calvinistic view of predestination is different than that of Scripture?

You reading skills really stink. Nowhere in the Bible does it even hint can man has lost his ability to repent.

The ancients creeds and confessions and authors of the Protestant Reformation are not superior to the Bible nor did they agree with each other. And they all upheld repentance.

Much of Catholicism stayed with them in their breakaway. Reform does not mean to replace.

You elevate them far too much.

Don't quote that nonsense to me. Show me in the Bible,

 

[Mjh29]

You reading skills really stink. Nowhere in the Bible does it even can man has lost his ability to repent.

Apparently so do your typing skills

Don't quote that nonsense to me. Show me in the Bible

So now we are using Scripture? I thought we were just throwing around things like "Nope. Cult" And leaving it at that? Please see the first post of this thread, and note the plethora of Scripture given.

 

[CoreIssue]

Apparently so do your typing skills



So now we are using Scripture? I thought we were just throwing around things like "Nope. Cult" And leaving it at that? Please see the first post of this thread, and not the plethora of Scripture given.

I gave you versus to disprove you guys and you gave nothing in return. So if I have to repeat something it is Calvinism is a cult.

 

[Mjh29]

I gave you versus to disprove you guys and you gave nothing in return. So if I have to repeat something it is Calvinism is a cult.

And we did disprove them.So the bunch of verses I have supplied at the beginning aren't enough? Because there are a bunch more sections of the Confession, each with at least 5 or 6 supporting verses, if more verses isn't enough?

 

[CoreIssue]

And we did disprove them.So the bunch of verses I have supplied at the beginning aren't enough? Because there are a bunch more sections of the Confession, each with at least 5 or 6 supporting verses, if more verses isn't enough?

Only supporting in your mind, not what the verses said.

 

[Mjh29]

Only supporting in your mind, not what the verses said.

All of them? Wow.... that is quite the coincidence. How convenient. However, when many many places all over the old and new testament say the same thing the point is saying, I believe that is what is called biblical support. No twisted verses, not need to cling to 2 or 3 misinterpretations, but the whole of Scripture defending a belief. THAT is Scriptural

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

CoreIssue,

[Romans 8 says those he foreknew will love him are predestined,]

It does not say that anywhere in the text;
God intimately knew Sinners in Christ.....whom he did foreknow ...not WHAT HE DID fOREKNOW
THE SAVING lOVE OF JESUS IS ONLY FOUND iN CHRIST

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Only supporting in your mind, not what the verses said.

You were invited to go line by line and show where you differ...you have failed to do so because you cannot deny the truth without showing openly how foolish this thread was

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

View attachment 5381


This is what tells me right away that you will read into whatever verse or confession we produce exactly what you want it to say. Good news, I found a tee shirt that adheres to your logic!
View attachment 5382

The Presbyterian church is Calvinistic. It was started by John Knox, one of the leaders of the Reformation. I know why you are so adamant about proving that this document isn't Calvinistic; because you realize that there is nothing in this document to hate, and nothing that is unscriptural. Here's the delema;

We know the Westminster Confession is Calvinistic, yet you agree with it. Either;
1.) You have had a completely wrong definition of Calvinism, and have spent a bunch of time barking up the wrong tree
2.) You realize that this is Scriptural, and therefore must make it fit what you think is the Gospel message by doing what every Arminian does; twisting words to make them say something they dont. We could get into the actual predestination section if you want to.... and see how you can somehow make it say free will?
View attachment 5384

It is rare when any of these kinds of persons hang in and gives meaningful responses because except for about 6 or 7 verses they have nothing to offer but carnal philosophy.

 

[Mjh29]

It is rare when any of these kinds of persons hang in and gives meaningful responses because except for about 6 or 7 verses they have nothing to offer but carnal philosophy.

Yep. It is a shame.... And not matter how much biblical evidence we present, it is never enough to trump feelings

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

[QUOTE="CoreIssue,

Don't quote that nonsense to me. Show me in the Bible,[/QUOTE]

The little numbers at the bottom are bible verses;

Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4, 6, Jer 10:10; 1 Thes 1:9., Job 11:7-9; 26:14. , John 4:24. , 1 Tim 1:17. , Deut 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39. , Acts 14:11, 15. , Mal 3:6; James 1:17., 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:23-24. , Psa 90:2; 1 Tim 1:17. , Psa 145:3. ,Gen 17:1; Rev 4:8. , Rom 16:27. , Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8. , Psa 115:3. , Exod 3:14. , Eph 1:11. , Prov 16:4; Rom 11:36. , 1 John 4:8, 16., Exod 34:6-7. , Heb 11:6. , Neh 9:32-33. , Psa 5:5-6. , Exod 34:7; Nahum 1:2-3.

 

[Mjh29]

[QUOTE="CoreIssue,

Don't quote that nonsense to me. Show me in the Bible,

The little numbers at the bottom are bible verses;

Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4, 6, Jer 10:10; 1 Thes 1:9., Job 11:7-9; 26:14. , John 4:24. , 1 Tim 1:17. , Deut 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39. , Acts 14:11, 15. , Mal 3:6; James 1:17., 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:23-24. , Psa 90:2; 1 Tim 1:17. , Psa 145:3. ,Gen 17:1; Rev 4:8. , Rom 16:27. , Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8. , Psa 115:3. , Exod 3:14. , Eph 1:11. , Prov 16:4; Rom 11:36. , 1 John 4:8, 16., Exod 34:6-7. , Heb 11:6. , Neh 9:32-33. , Psa 5:5-6. , Exod 34:7; Nahum 1:2-3.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes I feel like this is how people look at the verses we give in defense
:

 

[Marymog]

Free will does not exist
Did you notice not one of your 79 verses had the words free will in them and taught no such concept

Soooo who forced you to type the words “Free will does not exist”?

Curious Mary

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Soooo who forced you to type the words “Free will does not exist”?

Curious Mary

Hello Mary,
Men and Women have a will, and make choices.
The self will that we do have is not free.
It is bound by our nature in this fallen condition.
When glorified in heaven we will no longer be able to sin because we will be fully conformed to the Image of The Son.
God has a will that is perfectly Holy.
He is not free to sin.

 

[Marymog]

Hello Mary,
Men and Women have a will, and make choices.
The self will that we do have is not free.
It is bound by our nature in this fallen condition.
When glorified in heaven we will no longer be able to sin because we will be fully conformed to the Image of The Son.
God has a will that is perfectly Holy.
He is not free to sin.

Thank you.

So free will does exist???

Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Men and Women have a will, and make choices.

And that is indeed free will. When the Gospel is preached (or read) -- invariably under the power of the Holy Spirit -- it generates faith, and sinners respond to the Gospel one way or another.

The self will that we do have is not free.

"Self-will" is something else altogether. It does not fit into this discussion.

It is bound by our nature in this fallen condition.

And even though mankind is in a fallen condition, God provides a conscience to every human being, and many do follow the leading of their conscience, as we know from Scripture. Therefore human beings are not unremittingly evil and sinful.

ROMANS 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Thank you.

So free will does exist???

Mary

Thank you.

So free will does exist???

Mary

No.....free will does not exist. It is a philosophy invented by fallen mankind and the sinful desire of Lucifer.
That is why you never see it in the bible. You do see man as described as self willed in the nt.
Sometimes theologians address this issue because unsaved men bring it up.
They will use terms such as free moral agency to describe people choosing what flavor jam to put on their toast. It has nothing to do with the will being free.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

And that is indeed free will. When the Gospel is preached (or read) -- invariably under the power of the Holy Spirit -- it generates faith, and sinners respond to the Gospel one way or another.

"Self-will" is something else altogether. It does not fit into this discussion.

And even though mankind is in a fallen condition, God provides a conscience to every human being, and many do follow the leading of their conscience, as we know from Scripture. Therefore human beings are not unremittingly evil and sinful.

ROMANS 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another:

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Men and women have a will that is not free.
Making choices is not speaking of the condition of man's will. The God given consciences have nothing to do with this topic.

 

[Mjh29]

Men and women have a will that is not free.
Making choices is not speaking of the condition of man's will. The God given consciences have nothing to do with this topic.

Great posts. One of the main problems I see people having with saying there is not free will is that people don't like the fact that they have no say in their salvation, that they didnt make the choice, and ultimately it wasn't up to them

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Great posts. One of the main problems I see people having with saying there is not free will is that people don't like the fact that they have no say in their salvation, that they didnt make the choice, and ultimately it wasn't up to them

When you look at Isa.14:12-14
5x Lucifer says I will...in his heart
I will ascend
I will exalt
I will sit upon the mount
I will ascend
I will be like....
This was his heart rebellion...he desired to rule in the place of God.
Unsaved men do the same thing when they sin and hate God's word.
The temptation is
..ACT INDEPENDENTLY FROM GOD'S WILL .
IT IS SIN EVERY TIME.
Eccl.12:13,14