CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

Red,

Do you believe if one does not believe in predestination as you do that that person is lost?

Of course I do not believe all who do not believe unconditional election are lost.

In my statement above, I'm not saying that if you do not believe in such doctrines you are lost, what I said was that I asked this question: "why do you disagree with the only manner which you can live forever with God?"

That's far from saying what you think I said.

And Jesus did not shed His blood for me???

If a person is a believer in Jesus Christ, then that person is giving evidence that Jesus did indeed shed his blood for their sins.

Now, of course I have never seen the book of life, so I can at best be only persuaded as Paul was of Timothy, that the faith of God's elect is in any person.

2nd Timothy 1:5​

“When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.”

 

[Red Baker]

First, let me say that I think the Calvinist/Reformed Theology view, which I think is your view as well, is completely wrong.

Jim, let me point this out one more time.

Unconditional election of grace and man's total depravity, is truly not a Calvinist/Reformed doctrines~ these truths have been preached and held to by believers way before the Reformers were born, and you know that and so do most others as well.

Actually if the truth was known, it was the printing press that got these truths into the hands of the common people.

Do this many times, and swiftly printed, mass-produced books appear. The printing press is often said to have been created by Gutenberg in Mainz, Germany, around 1440 AD, and it began taking root in Europe in the 1450s with the printing of the aforementioned Bibles

That was just before Martin Luther's birth and Calvin later in 1509~who took advantage of this and spread the truths as never before. Yet the doctrines preach by Luther and Calvin and others was not new to the saints there were group like the Waldensians around 1100, who believed much like the Reformers~yet they did make it it popular by mass producing books. Augustine was a tool used to get theses truth out around 400 a.d. yet it was done by hand, not mass producing as during the days of the Reformers and men after them.

Call it what you will.... I call those truths the same truths preached by the apostles and handed down to us by the scriptures. The Reformers did not invented these truths, they only preached them from the holy scriptures. Can we agree on this?

If so, then I'll come back and address the rest of your post.

 

[JBO]

Jim, let me point this out one more time.

Unconditional election of grace and man's total depravity, is truly not a Calvinist/Reformed doctrines~ these truths have been preached and held to by believers way before the Reformers were born, and you know that and so do most others as well.

Yes, by the likes of Augustine of Hippo. Unfortunately, his thinking was much too influenced by his Manichaeism on matters of the struggle between a good, spiritual world, and an evil, material world. That philosophy, I am convinced, was what led him to his heretical view of God's inability to converse with the unregenerate. The very idea that God, through the Holy Spirit, is incapable of communicating effectively with the unregenerate is mind boggling. Only a Calvinist, or in Augustine's case a Manichaeist, could entertain such a naive and foolish idea. The very idea of the inability of the Holy Spirit to reach the unbeliever runs counter to the Bible in every sense.

In the truth of the scriptures, a significant work of the Holy Spirit in the NT era is reaching out to the unregenerate. There is a moment in time when an unbeliever becomes a member of the body of Christ. You can call it the moment when he is saved. You can call it the moment when he is born again. You can call it the moment when he is regenerated. But, no matter, there is that precise instant in time when an unbeliever becomes a child of God. I am going to call that moment conversion, the precise moment when an unsaved person becomes saved.

Prior to conversion the Spirit’s work is focused upon causing faith and repentance to arise in the heart of an unbeliever. The Spirit exerts an influence upon unbelievers’ hearts, to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). The word for “convict” (elencho) refers to the act of making one’s sins known to him in order to prompt him to feel a sense of personal guilt and then to correct his behavior. This is done by the presentation of truth or proof to the intellect and not simply by emotional manipulation. The Spirit may accomplish this in two ways, i.e., through the power of the written Word of God and through providential intervention in a person’s life. The first is always involved; the second may or may not be.

The main way the Spirit works on the heart of an unbeliever is through the inspired message of the Bible. The power of the Word of God is always the principal agent that leads to faith and repentance. John says of his Gospel that these things “have been written so that you may believe” (John 20:31). The gospel is “the power of God for salvation” (Rom 1:16). “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). See also Luke 8:11-15; John 6:44-45; 1 Cor 4:15; Heb 4:12-13; Jas 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23. The influence of the Word upon the hearts of sinners can be called the work of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit is the one who inspired its writing in the first place. What the Word accomplishes, the Spirit accomplishes.
The second way the Spirit may work to bring a sinner to faith and repentance is through providential means. This is not an exclusive work of the Spirit but may also be performed by the Father and the Son. The idea is that, in addition to the influence of the Word (which will always be present), God may work on the heart in providential ways to bring about a confrontation with the truth and an encouragement to believe and repent. For example, he may lead a person to cross paths with someone who can witness to him. I believe the case of Phhilip and the Ethiopian Enuch is one such case (Acts 8:26-40). He may raise certain thoughts or memories to consciousness; he may soften the heart through natural disasters, sickness, family tragedy, or an overheard remark or song. The possibility of such providential activity makes it appropriate for us to pray for the conversion of the lost.

We must be careful to avoid two extremes in our understanding of how the Spirit works prior to conversion. First, we must reject the idea that the only way that God the Spirit works in this context is through the Bible. We must not forget the possibility of providential activity. Second, we must reject the Calvinist idea that the Holy Spirit directly plants faith and repentance into an unbeliever’s heart through an act of selective, irresistible grace. Whatever the Spirit does prior to conversion, his work is universal and resistible. The gospel of the Savior’s death exerts a drawing power upon all who hear it (John 12:32), but this power can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Although it is true that the Spirit works prior to conversion in the ways indicated, this aspect of his work is not really the new kind of work associated exclusively with the New Covenant era. Even in OT times the Spirit worked through the power of the prophetic word and through providential means to bring sinners to repentance and faith. The Spirit’s new work is performed in the event of conversion itself, and in his work following conversion.

 

[Red Baker]

Yes, by the likes of Augustine of Hippo.

Probably the most powerful voice after the apostles even unto our own days. By that statement, I'm not saying I agree with all he taught, since he did ahere to infant baptism, for whatever strange reason, is truly beyond me to know.

Unfortunately, his thinking was much too influenced by his Manichaeism on matters of the struggle between a good, spiritual world, and an evil, material world.

He was a follower of that religion (started in Iran) for around nine years, before being converted to Christ's religion. I do not think that had any bearing on his Christian faith, but, I was not there and did not know him personally, so, I have said enough on this point. I can test him based on his teaching using the scriptures, which I do. 1st John 4:1; Acts 17:11; etc.

I am convinced, was what led him to his heretical view of God's inability to converse with the unregenerate. The very idea that God, through the Holy Spirit, is incapable of communicating effectively with the unregenerate is mind boggling. Only a Calvinist, or in Augustine's case a Manichaeist, could entertain such a naive and foolish idea. The very idea of the inability of the Holy Spirit to reach the unbeliever runs counter to the Bible in every sense.

Jim, you are misrepresenting Augustine, and the Calvinist, of God not having the ability to do as he pleases with anyone. Of course they believe that and even more! Not only does God have the ability, but he has all knowledge of the very thoughts of all men before they even think it and their hearts are in his hand, and he can turn it as he pleases. None can hinder him, or have the right to say~what doest thou?

Daniel 4:35~"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Proverbs 21:1~The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.​

Jim, Almighty God has total rule over all men’s hearts, even kings’ hearts. As easily as He directs rivers back and forth as they move water toward the sea, and as easily as a farmer directs water by channels and sluices for the benefit of his fields, so God turns the hearts of kings any direction He desires to accomplish His holy purposes without any problem whatsoever, and they do not even know that he is turning their hearts to serve his purposes and for the good of his elect!

Knowing this fact, we do understand He totally controls lesser men and simpler circumstances, so I trust Him fully and wait for His mercy (Pr 16:9; Ruth 2:3; Jas 4:13-15). He even rules chance events with no regard for statistical probability (Pr 16:33).

All men who are what you call Calvinist, believe this more than most folks.

I have a meeting, be back to finish....RB

 

[Robert Pate]

Probably the most powerful voice after the apostles even unto our own days. By that statement, I'm not saying I agree with all he taught, since he did ahere to infant baptism, for whatever strange reason, is truly beyond me to know.


He was a follower of that religion (started in Iran) for around nine years, before being converted to Christ's religion. I do not think that had any bearing on his Christian faith, but, I was not there and did not know him personally, so, I have said enough on this point. I can test him based on his teaching using the scriptures, which I do. 1st John 4:1; Acts 17:11; etc.


Jim, you are misrepresenting Augustine, and the Calvinist, of God not having the ability to do as he pleases with anyone. Of course they believe that and even more! Not only does God have the ability, but he has all knowledge of the very thoughts of all men before they even think it and their hearts are in his hand, and he can turn it as he pleases. None can hinder him, or have the right to say~what doest thou?

Proverbs 21:1~The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.​

Jim, Almighty God has total rule over all men’s hearts, even kings’ hearts. As easily as He directs rivers back and forth as they move water toward the sea, and as easily as a farmer directs water by channels and sluices for the benefit of his fields, so God turns the hearts of kings any direction He desires to accomplish His holy purposes without any problem whatsoever, and they do not even know that he is turning their hearts to serve his purposes and for the good of his elect!

Knowing this fact, we do understand He totally controls lesser men and simpler circumstances, so I trust Him fully and wait for His mercy (Pr 16:9; Ruth 2:3; Jas 4:13-15). He even rules chance events with no regard for statistical probability (Pr 16:33).

All men who are what you call Calvinist, believe this more than most folks.

I have a meeting, be back to finish....RB

You don't have to wait for his mercy. It is available to all that want it NOW. " God so loved the world (not just some) that he gave his only begotten son that "WHOSOEVER" believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. Why do you want to believe the words of a heretic and not God's word?

 

[Red Baker]

Why do you want to believe the words of a heretic and not God's word?

Robert, that's the very reason why I strongly reject your words!

I have given the true sense of John 3:16 a few times over~yet all you can do just use vain jangling with no attempt to honourably at least use scriptures properly to support whatever you believe to be truth.

 

[Red Baker]

GOD DOES NOT LOVE EVERYBODY​

A.W. Pink

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God’s Love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live—in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul’s eternal interests, still less for God’s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips,—notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church-fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody—captivated by Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World”—did more than anyone else last century to popularize this concept.

It has been customary to say God loves the sinner, though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner but sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick”, and his “whole heart faint”, and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isaiah 1:5,6). Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience, as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, that the love of God, is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus—the perfect Teacher— telling sinners that God loved them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But, when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth—God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the Word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is, the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being mis-understood, let us say—and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country—there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God—to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family then why did our Lord tell His disciples, “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father….. If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father” if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Proverbs 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again; we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psalm 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God”—not “shall abide,” but even now—”abideth on him” (Psalm 5:5; 7:11, John 3:36). Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again; is it not evident that the words “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again; it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!

 

[Robert Pate]

GOD DOES NOT LOVE EVERYBODY​

A.W. Pink

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God’s Love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live—in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul’s eternal interests, still less for God’s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips,—notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church-fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody—captivated by Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World”—did more than anyone else last century to popularize this concept.

It has been customary to say God loves the sinner, though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner but sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick”, and his “whole heart faint”, and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isaiah 1:5,6). Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience, as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, that the love of God, is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus—the perfect Teacher— telling sinners that God loved them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But, when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth—God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the Word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers. That which sinners need to have brought before them is, the ineffable holiness, the exacting righteousness, the inflexible justice and the terrible wrath of God. Risking the danger of being mis-understood, let us say—and we wish we could say it to every evangelist and preacher in the country—there is far too much presenting of Christ to sinners today (by those sound in the faith), and far too little showing sinners their need of Christ, i.e., their absolutely ruined and lost condition, their imminent and awful danger of suffering the wrath to come, the fearful guilt resting upon them in the sight of God—to present Christ to those who have never been shown their need of Him, seems to us to be guilty of casting pearls before swine.

If it be true that God loves every member of the human family then why did our Lord tell His disciples, “He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father….. If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him” (John 14:21,23)? Why say “he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father” if the Father loves everybody? The same limitation is found in Proverbs 8:17: “I love them that love Me.” Again; we read, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity”—not merely the works of iniquity. Here, then, is a flat repudiation of present teaching that, God hates sin but loves the sinner; Scripture says, “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity” (Psalm 5:5)! “God is angry with the wicked every day.” “He that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God”—not “shall abide,” but even now—”abideth on him” (Psalm 5:5; 7:11, John 3:36). Can God “love” the one on whom His “wrath” abides? Again; is it not evident that the words “The love of God which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:39) mark a limitation, both in the sphere and objects of His love? Again; is it not plain from the words “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Romans 9:13) that God does not love everybody? Again; it is written, “For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Does not this verse teach that God’s love is restricted to the members of His own family? If He loves all men without exception, then the distinction and limitation here mentioned is quite meaningless. Finally, we would ask, Is it conceivable that God will love the damned in the Lake of Fire? Yet, if He loves them now He will do so then, seeing that His love knows no change—He is “without variableness or shadow of turning”!

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. All that accept Christ as their savior are under his mercy. All that reject his mercy are under his judgment. Plain and simple. "He that does not believe is condemned" John 3:18.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

He can and does harden faithful followers hearts to accomplish his will...so agree to disagree.

This would be wrong. Believers harden their own hearts through continual disobedience, until they quench the voice of the spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

This would be wrong. Believers harden their own hearts through continual disobedience, until they quench the voice of the spirit.

No it’s not wrong, God can harden who Evers heart he pleases, he hardened Pharoah heart to accomplish his will.

Can God harden a believer's heart?
Without question, the answer is yes, he does. The Bible speaks of God's active agency in hardening hearts with unmistakable bluntness. Maybe the clearest example is Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus. God hardened his heart in obstinacy on purpose.

I would not like to ever be disobedient to God knowingly, in ignorance yes, deliberately disobeying God you must me joking...


21 Bible Verses about God Hardening People
Most Relevant Verses

Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Exodus 4:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
Verse Concepts
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
Verse Concepts
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 10:1
Verse Concepts
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 14:17
Verse Concepts
As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

Deuteronomy 2:30
Verse Concepts
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

 

[JBO]

Probably the most powerful voice after the apostles even unto our own days. By that statement, I'm not saying I agree with all he taught, since he did ahere to infant baptism, for whatever strange reason, is truly beyond me to know.

That concerning Augustine. Yes, but he was not inspired and he was wrong.

Jim, you are misrepresenting Augustine, and the Calvinist, of God not having the ability to do as he pleases with anyone. Of course they believe that and even more! Not only does God have the ability, but he has all knowledge of the very thoughts of all men before they even think it and their hearts are in his hand, and he can turn it as he pleases. None can hinder him, or have the right to say~what doest thou?

Proverbs 21:1~The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.​

Jim, Almighty God has total rule over all men’s hearts, even kings’ hearts. As easily as He directs rivers back and forth as they move water toward the sea, and as easily as a farmer directs water by channels and sluices for the benefit of his fields, so God turns the hearts of kings any direction He desires to accomplish His holy purposes without any problem whatsoever, and they do not even know that he is turning their hearts to serve his purposes and for the good of his elect!

Knowing this fact, we do understand He totally controls lesser men and simpler circumstances, so I trust Him fully and wait for His mercy (Pr 16:9; Ruth 2:3; Jas 4:13-15). He even rules chance events with no regard for statistical probability (Pr 16:33).

Here, as you so often do, you fail to distinguish between God's electing to service and His electing to salvation. You quoted Proverbs 12:1. But if you bother to actually read that and the rest of the chapter, it is a description of God's reaction to those disposed to do right or wrong. It is not a description of God causing the righteous man to be righteous or causing the wicked man to be wicked or doing anything to change that.

 

[JBO]

No it’s not wrong, God can harden who Evers heart he pleases, he hardened Pharoah heart to accomplish his will.

I would not like to ever be disobedient to God knowingly, in ignorance yes, deliberately disobeying God you must me joking...

21 Bible Verses about God Hardening People
Most Relevant Verses

Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Exodus 4:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
Verse Concepts
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
Verse Concepts
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 10:1
Verse Concepts
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 14:17
Verse Concepts
As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

Deuteronomy 2:30
Verse Concepts
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

In none of those examples does it show God changing the hearts and minds for the purpose of either saving or condemning their souls.

 

[Robert Pate]

No it’s not wrong, God can harden who Evers heart he pleases, he hardened Pharoah heart to accomplish his will.

Can God harden a believer's heart?
Without question, the answer is yes, he does. The Bible speaks of God's active agency in hardening hearts with unmistakable bluntness. Maybe the clearest example is Pharaoh at the time of the Exodus. God hardened his heart in obstinacy on purpose.

I would not like to ever be disobedient to God knowingly, in ignorance yes, deliberately disobeying God you must me joking...


21 Bible Verses about God Hardening People
Most Relevant Verses

Romans 9:18
Verse Concepts
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Exodus 4:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
Verse Concepts
But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 9:12
Verse Concepts
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.

Exodus 10:1
Verse Concepts
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 14:17
Verse Concepts
As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.

Deuteronomy 2:30
Verse Concepts
But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

If God hardened the hearts of unbelievers, he would be unjust. God knows who has a hardened heart and who doesn't. Pharaoh's heart was already hardened. You are called to believe that or to believe that God is unjust and is a sinner. So, which is it?

 

[Ritajanice]

If God hardened the hearts of unbelievers, he would be unjust. God knows who has a hardened heart and who doesn't. Pharaoh's heart was already hardened. You are called to believe that or to believe that God is unjust and is a sinner. So, which is it?

That’s just your opinion...God can harden anyone’s heart, as per scripture..if you don’t like it, take it up with him.

You sound to the chime of your own voice...

Do you actually read scripture?..seems you dismiss the word of God.

Are you blind to the truth of Gods word.?

 

[Ritajanice]

In none of those examples does it show God changing the hearts and minds for the purpose of either saving or condemning their souls.

In your opinion my opinion disagrees with your opinion.

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, by the likes of Augustine of Hippo. Unfortunately, his thinking was much too influenced by his Manichaeism on matters of the struggle between a good, spiritual world, and an evil, material world. That philosophy, I am convinced, was what led him to his heretical view of God's inability to converse with the unregenerate. The very idea that God, through the Holy Spirit, is incapable of communicating effectively with the unregenerate is mind boggling. Only a Calvinist, or in Augustine's case a Manichaeist, could entertain such a naive and foolish idea. The very idea of the inability of the Holy Spirit to reach the unbeliever runs counter to the Bible in every sense.

In the truth of the scriptures, a significant work of the Holy Spirit in the NT era is reaching out to the unregenerate. There is a moment in time when an unbeliever becomes a member of the body of Christ. You can call it the moment when he is saved. You can call it the moment when he is born again. You can call it the moment when he is regenerated. But, no matter, there is that precise instant in time when an unbeliever becomes a child of God. I am going to call that moment conversion, the precise moment when an unsaved person becomes saved.

Prior to conversion the Spirit’s work is focused upon causing faith and repentance to arise in the heart of an unbeliever. The Spirit exerts an influence upon unbelievers’ hearts, to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). The word for “convict” (elencho) refers to the act of making one’s sins known to him in order to prompt him to feel a sense of personal guilt and then to correct his behavior. This is done by the presentation of truth or proof to the intellect and not simply by emotional manipulation. The Spirit may accomplish this in two ways, i.e., through the power of the written Word of God and through providential intervention in a person’s life. The first is always involved; the second may or may not be.

The main way the Spirit works on the heart of an unbeliever is through the inspired message of the Bible. The power of the Word of God is always the principal agent that leads to faith and repentance. John says of his Gospel that these things “have been written so that you may believe” (John 20:31). The gospel is “the power of God for salvation” (Rom 1:16). “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ” (Rom 10:17). See also Luke 8:11-15; John 6:44-45; 1 Cor 4:15; Heb 4:12-13; Jas 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23. The influence of the Word upon the hearts of sinners can be called the work of the Holy Spirit, since the Holy Spirit is the one who inspired its writing in the first place. What the Word accomplishes, the Spirit accomplishes.
The second way the Spirit may work to bring a sinner to faith and repentance is through providential means. This is not an exclusive work of the Spirit but may also be performed by the Father and the Son. The idea is that, in addition to the influence of the Word (which will always be present), God may work on the heart in providential ways to bring about a confrontation with the truth and an encouragement to believe and repent. For example, he may lead a person to cross paths with someone who can witness to him. I believe the case of Phhilip and the Ethiopian Enuch is one such case (Acts 8:26-40). He may raise certain thoughts or memories to consciousness; he may soften the heart through natural disasters, sickness, family tragedy, or an overheard remark or song. The possibility of such providential activity makes it appropriate for us to pray for the conversion of the lost.

We must be careful to avoid two extremes in our understanding of how the Spirit works prior to conversion. First, we must reject the idea that the only way that God the Spirit works in this context is through the Bible. We must not forget the possibility of providential activity. Second, we must reject the Calvinist idea that the Holy Spirit directly plants faith and repentance into an unbeliever’s heart through an act of selective, irresistible grace. Whatever the Spirit does prior to conversion, his work is universal and resistible. The gospel of the Savior’s death exerts a drawing power upon all who hear it (John 12:32), but this power can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

Although it is true that the Spirit works prior to conversion in the ways indicated, this aspect of his work is not really the new kind of work associated exclusively with the New Covenant era. Even in OT times the Spirit worked through the power of the prophetic word and through providential means to bring sinners to repentance and faith. The Spirit’s new work is performed in the event of conversion itself, and in his work following conversion.

This above is a commentary he found online....you should give the commentators name when you post stuff like this..not take the credit for yourself.

 

[Robert Pate]

That’s just your opinion...God can harden anyone’s heart, as per scripture..if you don’t like it, take it up with him.

You sound to the chime of your own voice...

Do you actually read scripture?..seems you dismiss the word of God.

Are you blind to the truth of Gods word.?

It is very apparent that you believe that God is a mean cruel tyrant. If you believe that about God and his Son Jesus Christ, you will never see heaven.

 

[Ritajanice]

If God hardened the hearts of unbelievers, he would be unjust. God knows who has a hardened heart and who doesn't. Pharaoh's heart was already hardened. You are called to believe that or to believe that God is unjust and is a sinner. So, which is it?

You sound like you know God better than he knows himself...Lol.

Thank God that he is control and he has mercy on who he chooses to have mercy, then there are the vessels of wrath...Praise God that he is a just God.

 

[Ritajanice]

It is very apparent that you believe that God is a mean cruel tyrant. If you believe that about God and his Son Jesus Christ, you will never see heaven.

I’m already in the Kingdom of God..when I became Born Again....LOL....Praise God!!!

Back it up with scripture like I did...only in your opinion it’s not saying what I think it’s saying.

Who are you trying to convince me or yourself..LOL.

ROMANS 9:14–24

Romans 9:14-24

King James Version

​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Robert Pate]

You sound like you know God better than he knows himself...Lol.

Thank God that he is control and he has mercy on who he chooses to have mercy, then there are the vessels of wrath...Praise God that he is a just God.

The only thing that I know about God is what has been revealed to me through his Son Jesus Christ and the scriptures.

The scripture says that he is kind, longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

The God of Calvinism is just the opposite of the God of the Bible.