CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Marymog]

Individuals DO have choices.
Individuals CAN elect to Believe in the Lord God or Not.

I am predestined not to believe your all men are predestined theory......

C'mon taken....surely you realize how circular and illogical your theory is?

You are literally saying two different things. First you say that we can CHOOSE or NOT CHOOSE. Then you say Destiny is Predetermined And Prepared For you.

Which is it? Do we have a choice OR is our destiny predetermined?

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

Of course YOU have a Choice To Choose the Lord God or Not.

What does God KNOWING your choice Before you Make your choice have to do with you wondering IF you can make a choice?

I know I have a choice. But that is not the argument you are making. The argument you are making is that I don't have a choice...you are saying I am predestined. Being predestined is the opposite of choice.

God knowing my choice does not equal predestination.

 

[Taken]

I am predestined not to believe your all men are predestined theory......

So, you must be of the opinion God…(the ALL-Knowing God)…is Wondering what men WILL DECIDE….and THEN create a Heaven and Hell destiny for men to Decide if they will choose to BE WITH or WITHOUT God?

LOL

C'mon taken....surely you realize how circular and illogical your theory is?

C’mon Marymog….surely you realize Invisible Spirit God did not Create and Make Human mankind (that can neither SEE, HEAR, TOUCH, SMELL God)…to believe IN HIM …
According to LOGIC?

LOL

You are literally saying two different things. First you say that we can CHOOSE or NOT CHOOSE. Then you say Destiny is Predetermined And Prepared For you.

Which is it? Do we have a choice OR is our destiny predetermined?

Patient Mary

Of course it is TWO DIFFERENT “THINGS”…
Regarding TWO DIFFERENT BEINGS…duh!

Uh hem….
God and Mankind!

God already KNOWS …. PRE-KNOWS….has PRE-PREPARED every mans DESTINY!

ManKIND…SHOULD KNOW his Destiny…According to WHEN and WHAT choices he freely Decides!

 

[Marymog]

Did your parents KNOW before YOU that YOU would be born?
Did you parents prepare A place For you for When you would be Born?

My My Did your parents pre-Determine your Destiny…
To live at their home?
To choose for you? Food, Clothes, Room, Bed?
To choose for you? Catholic Church?
To choose for you your education?

Did you grow, mature, make your own choice to leave your parents, home, food, clothes, room, bed?

Did you choose to keep the pre-determined Choice your parents Made “For you” or leave the Catholic Church?

You chose your parents pre-determined Catholic Church…Correct? Why?
Because you got a pretty new dress unlike you have ever had before and got to drink And eat in the sanctuary and you were on display for everyone in the sanctuary to see you in you new dress drinking and eating in the sanctuary…and received a gift ? A new Bible? A Rosary? Did YOU feel special?
If so Why?
How old were you when You chose to Choose what your parents predetermined what your destiny would be?

Huh? None of this makes sense. Can you condense all that into a few sentences or questions so I can understand it?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

So, you must be of the opinion God…(the ALL-Knowing God)…is Wondering what men WILL DECIDE….and THEN create a Heaven and Hell destiny for men to Decide if they will choose to BE WITH or WITHOUT God?

LOL

What a bizarre question.

Nope, not of that opinion at all. I have never suggested that, wrote that, implied that or thought that.

 

[Marymog]

God already KNOWS …. PRE-KNOWS….has PRE-PREPARED every mans DESTINY!

Just because God knows our destiny does not mean he predetermined our destiny. He just knows our choices before we make our choices. That is where you are getting confused and don't understand.

 

[Marymog]

ManKIND…SHOULD KNOW his Destiny…According to WHEN and WHAT choices he freely Decides!

That makes absolutely ZERO sense. Who is teaching you this garbage? According to your theory we can't know our destiny because it is predetermined by God. It doesn't matter what choices we make.......God has already decided the ending.

And there you go again suggesting that we can freely decide something AFTER you said that we are predestined. You make no sense.....

 

[RedFan]

To everyone out there who thinks foreknowledge is causal:

Imagine you are on the top of a very tall building in midtown Manhattan, looking down on, say, Fifth Avenue and 34th Street. You notice two cars speeding toward that intersection at over 100 mph, one on 34th Street and the other on Fifth Avenue, heading for an inevitable deadly collision they can't see coming. You are gripped with fear, but unable to change the outcome. It happens. Both drivers are killed.

Shall we prosecute you for murder?

 

[Lizbeth]

To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is the height of spiritual depravity. You might be better off to believe in no God at all than to believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to believe that God is an unjust, unrighteous, unmerciful, tyrant. The Bible plainly teaches that God's people are justified by faith. They are justified by faith in God and his righteousness.

Paul wrote, "To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him that believes in Jesus., Romans 3:26. It is not possible to believe that God is righteous when he condemns people to hell before they are born. We believe that God and his Son Jesus Christ are righteous and can be trusted. This results in our justification. If you don't believe that God and Jesus Christ are righteous, then you are not a Christian. The God of Calvinism is unrighteous and is depraved. It is not spiritually possible to have faith in the God of Calvinism.

What you believe God is like will be reflected in the way that you live. If you believe that God is merciful, you will be merciful also. John Calvin was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Christians. He was known as the tyrant of Genevia. If you want to know more about John Calvin, google, "The Recorded Atrocities of John Calvin". To say that John Calvin was depraved might be an understatement. Because he was depraved, he invented a depraved religion and named it after himself.

There are dozens and dozens of scriptures that refute Calvinism. The most hated scripture of Calvinism is John 3:16. "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever that believes in him should not perish". They also hate the words "Whosoever" "All" "Everyone" "World". We have a responsibility to preach the Gospel to everyone regardless of what they believe. If you decide to take on these poor lost souls stick with the scriptures and keep your cool.

There's no question in my mind that Protestantism was on the right track in the main, but that they were like the Israelites, who after coming out of Egypt still needed to get Egypt out of them. Can't speak to any individuals' lives or hearts...its' hard to sort out the truth from fiction and rumours these days.........but as to predestination, we are predestinated, but I believe it is according to God's foreknowledge. Since the bible also explicitly says we are elect according to the foreknowlege of God. He knows the end from the beginning and so He "goes before" everything, weaving it all into His sovereign purposes and plans.

 

[Marymog]

To everyone out there who thinks foreknowledge is causal:

Imagine you are on the top of a very tall building in midtown Manhattan, looking down on, say, Fifth Avenue and 34th Street. You notice two cars speeding toward that intersection at over 100 mph, one on 34th Street and the other on Fifth Avenue, heading for an inevitable deadly collision they can't see coming. You are gripped with fear, but unable to change the outcome. It happens. Both drivers are killed.

Shall we prosecute you for murder?

Since God knows everything, he had the knowledge that both drivers would be killed. God can also control the outcome of the crash and one or both drivers could have been saved by God.

The person on top of the building didn't know both drivers would be killed. They could assume that they would both be killed, but they couldn't know that. And they had no power to save them.

So the answer is NO, the person on top of the building should not be prosecuted for murder for assuming something or witnessing a death they had no control over.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

There's no question in my mind that Protestantism was on the right track in the main,.....

Which Protestant was "on the right track" ? Calvin? Luther? Zwingili? Wycliffe?

They all taught different things and disagreed with each other on what it takes to be saved sooooooooo which one was on the right track Lizbeth?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

.but as to predestination, we are predestinated, but I believe it is according to God's foreknowledge. Since the bible also explicitly says we are elect according to the foreknowlege of God. He knows the end from the beginning and so He "goes before" everything, weaving it all into His sovereign purposes and plans.

God having the foreknowledge of what we are going to do is not the same as Him predetermining what we are going to do.

Mary

 

[RedFan]

Since God knows everything, he had the knowledge that both drivers would be killed. God can also control the outcome of the crash and one or both drivers could have been saved by God.

The person on top of the building didn't know both drivers would be killed. They could assume that they would both be killed, but they couldn't know that. And they had no power to save them.

So the answer is NO, the person on top of the building should not be prosecuted for murder for assuming something or witnessing a death they had no control over.

Mary

Mary, I did not expect an answer from you! My question was addressed to those who think foreknowledge is causal.

 

[Lizbeth]

Which Protestant was "on the right track" ? Calvin? Luther? Zwingili? Wycliffe?

They all taught different things and disagreed with each other on what it takes to be saved sooooooooo which one was on the right track Lizbeth?

Curious Mary

They all came out of "Egypt" as far as I know. And I am not familiar with all the particulars of all their doctrines, but if I'm not mistaken they all allowed for the scriptures to be read by everyone and they all taught the need to be born of the spirit to enter the kingdom of God......through faith in Jesus, not faith in a particular institutional church or its priests and its rites, etc. In those things they were right.

 

[Lizbeth]

God having the foreknowledge of what we are going to do is not the same as Him predetermining what we are going to do.

Mary

Of course not, that is the point of being elect according to His foreknowledge. In the book of Acts it mentions the gospel being preached and those who were "appointed unto salvation" who believed, while the rest did not. We only know in part but as far as I can tell, being appointed unto salvation is according to God's foreknowledge of those souls who He foresaw would respond to the gospel and receive it/Christ.

Same with the devil....bible says God created the devil/destroyer to work havoc, but I believe that is also according to His foreknowledge that he would fall.

 

[Taken]

I know I have a choice. But that is not the argument you are making. The argument you are making is that I don't have a choice...you are saying I am predestined. Being predestined is the opposite of choice.

God knowing my choice does not equal predestination.

No … “IF” I was making the argument you have no choice…..DUH…don’t you think I would be saying that? Which I haven’t. So why are you saying that FOR ME, then disagreeing with WHAT YOU are saying FOR ME?

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

There's no question in my mind that Protestantism was on the right track in the main, but that they were like the Israelites, who after coming out of Egypt still needed to get Egypt out of them. Can't speak to any individuals' lives or hearts...its' hard to sort out the truth from fiction and rumours these days.........but as to predestination, we are predestinated, but I believe it is according to God's foreknowledge. Since the bible also explicitly says we are elect according to the foreknowlege of God. He knows the end from the beginning and so He "goes before" everything, weaving it all into His sovereign purposes and plans.

So you believe, as Calvin taught... Calvin: Predestination

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

And this is all part of his... as you say.... "goes before" everything, weaving it all into His sovereign purposes and plans.

And where do you come down on "freewill"?

 

[Lizbeth]

Since God knows everything, he had the knowledge that both drivers would be killed. God can also control the outcome of the crash and one or both drivers could have been saved by God.

The person on top of the building didn't know both drivers would be killed. They could assume that they would both be killed, but they couldn't know that. And they had no power to save them.

So the answer is NO, the person on top of the building should not be prosecuted for murder for assuming something or witnessing a death they had no control over.

Mary

The Lord can and will intervene in circumstances.....but as far as I understand it He does not try to control people (unlike so many churches and their leaders). God allows both people and devil to exercise their will for the most part at least....though perhaps restraining the devil at times or seasons.

 

[Taken]

@Marymog

DESTINY…
The inevitable or necessary fate to which a particular person or thing is destined; one's lot.
A predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control.

You choose…WITH or WITHOUT God…
Once you have Chosen…YOU have NO SAY in your Destiny….your soul will GO to Heaven or Hell….God has forewarned you.

There is no “praying” a soul OUT OF the depths of Hell…

 

[Lizbeth]

So you believe, as Calvin taught... Calvin: Predestination

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death

And this is all part of his... as you say.... "goes before" everything, weaving it all into His sovereign purposes and plans.

And where do you come down on "freewill"?

I don't feel I have to "come down" on anything sister. There are things I dont feel I understand at all and am content to wait on the Lord for His light.

And only understanding in part here, but I believe man exercises His will, while the Lord directs his steps...in a sovereign kind of way according to His foreknowledge. But are there times when He restrains people from excercising their will? Maybe, though I don't believe that is the same as "controlling" people.