CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Taken]

ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE VERY CONFUSED. What you brought up has NOTHING to do with the topic of our discussion.

There is NOTHING to misunderstand since what you brought up has NOTHING to do with the topic we were discussing!

Shall I repeat it again so you get it????????????????????

LOL

And then to be derogatory on top of that?????? Disgusting.......And YOU are a staff member? Part of the "encounter team"? Very very sad!

Your anger is overwhelming you. Calm down and talk about Calvinism to your heart content.

 

[JBO]

Some people find close friendships and comfort in “going” to a Church.

I don’t go to a man-made Church…Rather I am in attendance daily in Christ’s Church, and am content.

Glory to God,
Taken

"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near" (Heb 10:24-25).

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Some people find close friendships and comfort in “going” to a Church.

I don’t go to a man-made Church…Rather I am in attendance daily in Christ’s Church, and am content.

Glory to God,
Taken

Yes, they do.

Funny I never did when I did go. Seems like the people kind of carried that uppity attitude unless you were part of the in group

Blessings

 

[JBO]

Yes, they do.

Funny I never did when I did go. Seems like the people kind of carried that uppity attitude unless you were part of the in group

Blessings

Do not let your relationship with God be dependent upon what others might think or how others might act.

 

[Taken]

"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near" (Heb 10:24-25).

Hi JBO ~ yes. We are more home-body’s, preferring to eat, work, care for our own, read, study. No time or desire for TV. I find it easy to communicate with strangers as the necessity when I go to town. Blessing another, reveals their standing by their response. Lending a hand, reveals their goodness by their response. Of the general public, seems I encounter more brothers in Christ, than not.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near" (Heb 10:24-25).

Technically speaking , I do believe that is our charge when we participate in boards such as this.

To stimulate one another and yes, even educate as we should as not all assemblies out there agree wth each other... as well you know.

If it had not been for you... and much reading and studying and learning not just here, but elsewhere
I would still be in that predestined mindset wondering why I believed and felt I had free will when those pre-destined people were sure it was all directed by God... (such a strange idea that if God was in control as they believe, he would have sat on the sidelines in my youth and allowed me to dig my self deeper into not very "Christian" activities.

Well... I could go on. I could say that in another group, that you are familiar with we fought long and hard
but I always felt we had each others backs.... So much so that the one that you also know who always belittled me and ordered me to make sammiches... was to "MY" rescue when I did get covid and saw to it that I had
medicine to make me better.

To me... that makes a church, even though I will never meet any of you until we walk through those proverbial pearly gates....

Your quote... "and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together" .... interesting it says nothing about where we are to assemble or how.

Anyway... Have a blessed day.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Do not let your relationship with God be dependent upon what others might think or how others might act.

Agreed... but that does not mean that every Sunday I need to walk into church and sit there when I can watch on the laptop... and even partake of Holy Communion... (Long story on that )

 

[Taken]

Yes, they do.

Funny I never did when I did go. Seems like the people kind of carried that uppity attitude unless you were part of the in group

Blessings

An organized Church can be enlightening or boring IMO. The Pastor is preaching TO a mixed audience…converted, believers, non-believers, married, single, old, young, male, female, SOME on the straight path for eons, OTHERS still trying to decide…
Point being, it is not a one on one circumstance, that every sermon will be expressly about One “group”.

The Jews, (Apostles) were given a mission primarily to introduce the Jews (ie all tribesmen) to Christ Jesus…

Saul / Paul was given a greater TASK, to preach TO…the Jews, the Gentiles & Kings.

Thus when listening to (reading) Paul’s teaching…the listener KNOWS his own “group” he belongs to (Jew, Gentile, King), and thus SHOULD be able to GRASP what Paul is Preaching applies to them or not.

IMO the listeners, are not so astute at applying to them what actually applies….AND further seem to like to Dictate what applies to “others”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Technically speaking , I do believe that is our charge when we participate in boards such as this.

To stimulate one another and yes, even educate as we should as not all assemblies out there agree wth each other... as well you know.

If it had not been for you... and much reading and studying and learning not just here, but elsewhere
I would still be in that predestined mindset wondering why I believed and felt I had free will when those pre-destined people were sure it was all directed by God... (such a strange idea that if God was in control as they believe, he would have sat on the sidelines in my youth and allowed me to dig my self deeper into not very "Christian" activities.

Well... I could go on. I could say that in another group, that you are familiar with we fought long and hard
but I always felt we had each others backs.... So much so that the one that you also know who always belittled me and ordered me to make sammiches... was to "MY" rescue when I did get covid and saw to it that I had
medicine to make me better.

To me... that makes a church, even though I will never meet any of you until we walk through those proverbial pearly gates....

Your quote... "and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together" .... interesting it says nothing about where we are to assemble or how.

Anyway... Have a blessed day.

Assemble…?
Anywhere. A party, A marina, A restaurant, A bar, A beach, A grocery store, A home…..etc.
where two or three are gathered.

A Temple…A Church IS a House of Prayer unto the Lord God…His House…ABOUT Him.

All other places IMO are ABOUT People among and between People, recognizing the encounter is BECAUSE of God, which IS Glorifying TO God.

God Bless you and yours,
Taken

 

[Logikos]

I accept foreknowledge. Foreknowledge to me just means God knows all.

Well, foreknowledge doesn't mean that God knows all. That's what the word omniscient means. Foreknowledge, as typically used, means that God has infallible foreknowledge of the future.

I've now repeatedly posted an argument that demonstrates that such infallible foreknowledge would mean that we have no free will. And so far, not one person has responded to it at all.

That is not a new reaction! Every time I post that argument, what I typically get in response is silence. People don't respond because they have no clue how to rescue their doctrine from that argument and, at the end of the day, that's what the vast majority of people on these theology forums are here for, to rescue their doctrine from apposing arguments. They aren't here to test their doctrine to see whether it is true. They don't care if it's actually true. They've simply accepted it as true and the only thing they care anything about when confronted with opposition to their doctrine is finding a way to rescue their doctrine from it.

Well, there isn't any way to hide from reality, which is what makes sound reason so amazingly powerful!

You can cling to your beliefs all you like. I can't do anything other than attempt to persuade you to believe the scripture over your doctrine. It's up to you to do it though. All I can tell you is that if you believe in infallible foreknowledge, then your belief in free will has no basis and you might as well become a Calvinist. The alternative is to drop the pagan Greek ideas about God and formulate your doctrine around God's righteous character. The cost will be to let both Calvinism and Arminianism go by the wayside.

God is just! Therefore, He does NOT have infallible foreknowledge (by any means).

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Well, foreknowledge doesn't mean that God knows all.

I never meant it like that. I used a poor choice of words. I should have said that Foreknowledge to me just means God knows all about everything that will happen in the future.... not that he will cause it.

I always was taught

foreknowledge /fôr-nŏl′ĭj, fôr′nŏl″-/

noun​

1. Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience.
2. Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
   Similar: prescience
3. Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

That's what the word omniscient means.

omniscient /ŏm-nĭsh′ənt/

adjective​

1. Having total knowledge; knowing everything.
   "an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator."
2. Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise.
   "the omniscient God"
3. Having total knowledge.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

Foreknowledge, as typically used, means that God has infallible foreknowledge of the future.

OK

I've now repeatedly posted an argument that demonstrates that such infallible foreknowledge would mean that we have no free will.

Why? if God knows something that will happen that is bad for us... he does not interfere....
He lets us make our own mistakes. That does not take away from God knowing it all is going to happen at all.

And so far, not one person has responded to it at all.

That is not a new reaction! Every time I post that argument, what I typically get in response is silence. People don't respond because they have no clue how to rescue their doctrine from that argument and, at the end of the day, that's what the vast majority of people on these theology forums are here for, to rescue their doctrine from apposing arguments. They aren't here to test their doctrine to see whether it is true. They don't care if it's actually true. They've simply accepted it as true and the only thing they care anything about when confronted with opposition to their doctrine is finding a way to rescue their doctrine from it.

Well, there isn't any way to hide from reality, which is what makes sound reason so amazingly powerful!

You can cling to your beliefs all you like. I can't do anything other than attempt to persuade you to believe the scripture over your doctrine. It's up to you to do it though. All I can tell you is that if you believe in infallible foreknowledge, then your belief in free will has no basis and you might as well become a Calvinist. The alternative is to drop the pagan Greek ideas about God and formulate your doctrine around God's righteous character. The cost will be to let both Calvinism and Arminianism go by the wayside.

God is just! Therefore, He does NOT have infallible foreknowledge (by any means).

Boy... I simply do not see it like you do.

 

[JBO]

Well, foreknowledge doesn't mean that God knows all. That's what the word omniscient means. Foreknowledge, as typically used, means that God has infallible foreknowledge of the future.

I've now repeatedly posted an argument that demonstrates that such infallible foreknowledge would mean that we have no free will. And so far, not one person has responded to it at all.

That is not a new reaction! Every time I post that argument, what I typically get in response is silence. People don't respond because they have no clue how to rescue their doctrine from that argument and, at the end of the day, that's what the vast majority of people on these theology forums are here for, to rescue their doctrine from apposing arguments. They aren't here to test their doctrine to see whether it is true. They don't care if it's actually true. They've simply accepted it as true and the only thing they care anything about when confronted with opposition to their doctrine is finding a way to rescue their doctrine from it.

Well, there isn't any way to hide from reality, which is what makes sound reason so amazingly powerful!

You can cling to your beliefs all you like. I can't do anything other than attempt to persuade you to believe the scripture over your doctrine. It's up to you to do it though. All I can tell you is that if you believe in infallible foreknowledge, then your belief in free will has no basis and you might as well become a Calvinist. The alternative is to drop the pagan Greek ideas about God and formulate your doctrine around God's righteous character. The cost will be to let both Calvinism and Arminianism go by the wayside.

God is just! Therefore, He does NOT have infallible foreknowledge (by any means).

God's foreknowledge is simply His omniscience with respect to the future. And yes indeed, it is infallible, it is perfect, it is complete in every sense.

Your idea that infallible foreknowledge would mean that we have no free will is what some might agree with, but it is wrong. Foreknowledge, i.e., omniscience with respect to the future, does not preclude free will; there is no conflict between God's perfect foreknowledge and our free will. While what God knows about the future is certain. It will occur. With respect ot our free will and the free will choices that we will make, it is clear that God foreknows those choices; they are certain. However, they are not certain because He foreknows them.

If you make a choice about something and it becomes known to someone, as a past event it is absolutely certain. But it is not certain because it is now known by someone. It is certain because you made that choice, no matter what led up to your making that choice. That is exactly the same with God, except with God, He not only knows it as a past event, He knows it as a future event; He foreknows it. It is certain, not because He knows it but because you will make it. He not only foreknows your choice, He also foreknows everything that will lead up to your making that choice.

 

[JBO]

I never meant it like that. I used a poor choice of words. I should have said that Foreknowledge to me just means God knows all about everything that will happen in the future.... not that he will cause it.

I always was taught

foreknowledge /fôr-nŏl′ĭj, fôr′nŏl″-/

noun​

1. Knowledge or awareness of something before its existence or occurrence; prescience.
2. Knowledge of a thing before it happens, or of whatever is to happen; prescience.
   Similar: prescience
3. Knowing beforehand, prescience, foresight, precognition.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition

omniscient /ŏm-nĭsh′ənt/

adjective​

1. Having total knowledge; knowing everything.
   "an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator."
2. Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise.
   "the omniscient God"
3. Having total knowledge.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik



OK


Why? if God knows something that will happen that is bad for us... he does not interfere....
He lets us make our own mistakes. That does not take away from God knowing it all is going to happen at all.

Boy... I simply do not see it like you do.

Good for you Rella, He is wrong.

 

[Marymog]

LOL



Your anger is overwhelming you. Calm down and talk about Calvinism to your heart content.

I'm not angary kiddo....I'm DISGUSTED!!

 

[Logikos]

Boy... I simply do not see it like you do.

That's an honest enough response. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Just don't refuse to see it, that's the key to being intellectually honest, with yourself.

I'm going to assume that you failed to see the following and would very much like to know where you see a flaw in the argument.
Note that it does not make the argument that foreknowledge is the cause of any event. In fact, I know of no one anywhere who believes that foreknowledge is the cause of the foreknown events. It simply establishes that the concepts of infallible foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive. If God infallibly knows the future (regardless of how), you do not have a free will.

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

 

[Taken]

I'm not angary kiddo....I'm DISGUSTED!!

Aw…

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

That's an honest enough response. If you don't see it, you don't see it. Just don't refuse to see it, that's the key to being intellectually honest, with yourself.

I'm going to assume that you failed to see the following and would very much like to know where you see a flaw in the argument.
Note that it does not make the argument that foreknowledge is the cause of any event. In fact, I know of no one anywhere who believes that foreknowledge is the cause of the foreknown events. It simply establishes that the concepts of infallible foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive. If God infallibly knows the future (regardless of how), you do not have a free will.

T = You answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am

1. Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
2. If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
3. It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
4. Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of “infallibility”]
5. If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
6. So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
7. If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of “necessary”]
8. Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
9. If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
10. Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]

Source

FLAW?

First flaw..... This that is counter to itself . "foreknowledge is the cause of the foreknown events"
Knowing something is going to happen does not cause the thing to happen.

You know if your child reached to a hot stove they will get burned

Okay... "If God infallibly knows the future (regardless of how), you do not have a free will.

Why not. Just because he knows that the phone will ring and I might answer it does not deny me "Free Will".

Do you honestly believe our heavenly Father is just going through eternity one day at a time... watching the goings on in this world with a giant box of popcorn?

What do you think Jesus meant when he told them Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus believed God knew when the end would be and unless you are a preterist that was some 2000 years ago or so and counting.

You cant honestly believe God does not know when the end is planned?
Or how?

You cant possibly believe that God had His master plan well into the future when the Holy Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters scouting for a location to get the "plan" underway?

Certainly the heavenly Father knew the future or He would not have sent Jesus as part of His plan.

Because ironically as it may seem though I believe was part of the scheme He sent Jesus at just the right time.

Do I believe that God infallibly forknows every little instant in our lives?

I am going to qualify that by saying yes.... though I will had that job over to the Holy Spirit and not the Father....

But we cannot talk about that here... and dont ask me why read all of my signature.

When Jesus was getting ready to be on with the rest of His eternity he told them "I will ask the Father to send you another helper."

Without a foreknowledge what was the HS supposed to do? Wait for something to happen or give a necessary prodding here and there?

But do I think the HS interferes with what is going to happen....

No... We have our free will and the HS may nudge but will not direct.

Example:

I am supposed to go for blood work today... Fasting but I cannot go yert as my mom was sick in the middle of the night and we were up for a good 2 hours. When I finally went back to bed I said to myself I wont go today.

But I see the doc next Thur.

So I said to myself I should reschedule but then wont get in there til May.

So when I got up and I am tossing this back and forth I have decided to go....

MY decision.

 

[JBO]

FLAW?

First flaw..... This that is counter to itself . "foreknowledge is the cause of the foreknown events"
Knowing something is going to happen does not cause the thing to happen.

You know if your child reached to a hot stove they will get burned

Okay... "If God infallibly knows the future (regardless of how), you do not have a free will.

Why not. Just because he knows that the phone will ring and I might answer it does not deny me "Free Will".

Do you honestly believe our heavenly Father is just going through eternity one day at a time... watching the goings on in this world with a giant box of popcorn?

What do you think Jesus meant when he told them Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus believed God knew when the end would be and unless you are a preterist that was some 2000 years ago or so and counting.

You cant honestly believe God does not know when the end is planned?
Or how?

You cant possibly believe that God had His master plan well into the future when the Holy Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters scouting for a location to get the "plan" underway?

Certainly the heavenly Father knew the future or He would not have sent Jesus as part of His plan.

Because ironically as it may seem though I believe was part of the scheme He sent Jesus at just the right time.

Do I believe that God infallibly forknows every little instant in our lives?

I am going to qualify that by saying yes.... though I will had that job over to the Holy Spirit and not the Father....

But we cannot talk about that here... and dont ask me why read all of my signature.

When Jesus was getting ready to be on with the rest of His eternity he told them "I will ask the Father to send you another helper."

Without a foreknowledge what was the HS supposed to do? Wait for something to happen or give a necessary prodding here and there?

But do I think the HS interferes with what is going to happen....

No... We have our free will and the HS may nudge but will not direct.

Example:

I am supposed to go for blood work today... Fasting but I cannot go yert as my mom was sick in the middle of the night and we were up for a good 2 hours. When I finally went back to bed I said to myself I wont go today.

But I see the doc next Thur.

So I said to myself I should reschedule but then wont get in there til May.

So when I got up and I am tossing this back and forth I have decided to go....

MY decision.

As I said before, Rella, hang in there because Logikos is very confused about all of this. His latest post is a bit of irony given his ID. That entire mess about infallible foreknowledge is screwed up illogical nonsense.

 

[O'Darby]

Just in case anyone isn't familiar with Molinism, which is the hugely influential understanding of God's foreknowledge that William Lane Craig and others think resolves most problems, the gist is: God's foreknowledge extends not only to human choices and decisions in this world but to the choices and decisions that each human would have made in every possible world that God might have created (these being called "counterfactuals"). The world God actually created, with all its evils, is the one that accomplishes the maximum good consistent with God's plans and purposes. God's foreknowledge doesn't determine our decisions and choices in this world, but God in His omniscience knew what they would be.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

God's foreknowledge doesn't determine our decisions and choices in this world, but God in His omniscience knew what they would be.

That actually makes some sense.