Calvinism vs. Arminianism

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reformed1689

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So, you're saying that the only people who will do what it takes to receive salvation are the elect; and that the non-elect cannot or will not come to Him, correct?
That is what Scripture says, yes.
So, if someone does come to Him and do what it takes to be saved, they are the elect, is that right?
First, I don't know what you mean by if they do what it takes. It seems like you are advocating a works-based salvation when you say that. But if you are asking if someone comes to saving faith, yes, that person is obviously elect.

But if they don't do what it takes to be saved, they are the non-elect?
If they do not come to saving faith, correct, they are non-elect.

Does that not define the elect and non-elect on the basis of their decision to either receive or reject Christ (election according to foreknowledge)?
No. It defines the elect as those that God specifically calls and draws to Christ.

How then do they not have a choice in the matter? or, is it only hyper-Calvinism that teaches that we do not have a choice in the matter?
I don't understand this question.

Does the Lord somehow hinder the non-elect from coming to Him?
No, he simply passes over them and leaves them in their current state.

Can God truly love someone if He has created a heaven that they can go to and then perfectly prevents them from going there and the alternative is everlasting burnings? As if to slap them in the face with all of those who do end up in that heaven who have eternal pleasures at His right hand while they are suffering eternally in hell?
Where in the Bible does it say that God loves everyone equally?
 

reformed1689

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Well then, let us continue our discussion of the "T" in TULIP that we are currently discussing.

Do you have a response to my last post?

Or, perhaps you would like to move on to the U and what I said about it?
I'm getting lost, are you referring to the response to the post I just made in post Calvinism vs. Arminianism or a different one?
 

justbyfaith

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But really I would prefer to discuss Calvinism as a whole and how the five points relate to each other as I did in the OP.
 

justbyfaith

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This whole discussion is becoming difficult to manage.

The fact that you did not understand one of my questions meant that you did not get my point; because the questions were meant to drive home a point one after the other.

Therefore the breakup in your understanding means that there is a disconnect between me and you in what I am trying to say to you.

Even inasmuch as you did not desire to do the un-lazy thing therefore and address the whole of the OP, I think I do not desire to do the un-lazy thing and continue this conversation.

My OP stands;

But I don't think that further discussion with you will even be fruitful.
 

reformed1689

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This whole discussion is becoming difficult to manage.

The fact that you did not understand one of my questions meant that you did not get my point; because the questions were meant to drive home a point one after the other.

Therefore the breakup in your understanding means that there is a disconnect between me and you in what I am trying to say to you.

Even inasmuch as you did not desire to do the un-lazy thing therefore and address the whole of the OP, I think I do not desire to do the un-lazy thing and continue this conversation.

My OP stands;

But I don't think that further discussion with you will even be fruitful.
So rather than clarify your question, you decide to just throw in the towel saying this will not be fruitful? Oh brother.
 

justbyfaith

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So rather than clarify your question, you decide to just throw in the towel saying this will not be fruitful? Oh brother.
Yep...it's just too much work for me to be willing to do.

Just like addressing the whole of the OP is too much work for you.
 

Grailhunter

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IMHO...Calvanism is
A mind control religion that believes their minds are controlled and reality is nothing more than predetermined play…irony or hilarity? When you put predestinationism in motion, it is horrid! As a movie it would be one of the scariest sci-fi horror flicks made. In stead of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, it would be Invasion of the Mind Snatcher. I sometimes consider that it maybe away of getting attention or a persecution complex. But that cannot be true either, because they hide it. They hide it because they know, that if people really knew what predestinationists believe, they would not want to have anything to do with it. That is why they very carefully hide their beliefs from their congregations. Churches that believe that Free-will is somewhere between sacrilegious or anti-God.

It makes people wonder what kind of heart they have? Just like the abortion doctor that gets up in the morning, cleans up, has breakfast and goes to work each day to murder a few babies. What kind of heart could do that? But predestinationism is a million times worse than that, because when you put it in motion, you describe and worship a god that does that to millions of men, women, and children. Babies damned to hell before they are born. Damning them to hell by no fault of their own, no hope, no mercy, no escape! It is like Satan has given himself a guaranteed quota. What kind of heart could bend a knee to that god? What kind of people think this is good? Is it all about feeling special? The elect, is that worth it? To believe this is right is hideous! Look in history, those that thought they were the elect were the worst of people. And it is not just the Nazis! Thinking that they are above somebody, warps your mind.

Schemer that he is, Satan would search the scriptures for scriptures that he could use against God… Predestination, let us make it a constant reality! God is a horrific puppet master that enslaves all humanity with no hope of escape! Damns them to Hell before they born!

He would push judgment before creation and predestine the innocent to hell, while laughing at those that are not damned because no good they did was of their own merit, but rather forced by him. In this church of Satan, no good would matter, only evil. Faith, love, compassion, prayer, grace, forgiveness, kindness, church attendance and good deeds would not matter or show character or true faith because they are all puppets on strings, every movement and thought being forced upon them, dummies of the satanic puppet master.

The scheme to explanation that God used the power of clairvoyance to know who would be faithful and who not and then set it in stone does not work out....if He knew how it was all going to end, He would not need to use the power Predestination, just leave it alone and it would turn out that way. Predestination is about changing something for the good. He is God, not an enslaver.

From the outside it seems this religion replaces God with Satan, but of course that is not true. Predestinationists have hijacked our God to demonize Him much like the Moslems. No heresy can come close to equaling this. It slanders God in the worst way! Portraying him with the character of Satan!

 
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marks

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What you call disparage, I call speaking truth. Was Jesus disparaging the Pharisees when He called them a brood of vipers?
If you were right, it would be truth.

:(

What you are really doing is broadcasting your negative opinions of someone you've never even met. Why is that so important to you, that you do it so much?

And then you compare yourself to Jesus rebuking the Pharisees. That is revealing!

Much love!
 

Grailhunter

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So please show me the verse that it is the will of God that all be saved. If God willed all to be saved all would be saved, but we know that is not the case because some do go to Hell.

Are you telling me you do not know the verses regarding this...this should be fun...

Then tell me if God knows how it all will turn out....what does predestination do?