Calvinism

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Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Stephen100 said:
I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?
I'm not a Calvinist anymore. I find that none of the 5 points can be shown from Scripture, they are simply inferred from passage that are out of context.

Justin Mangonel said:
Dear S,

I think that confusion is the main facet of Calvinism as well as the
trinity. Both have logical fallacies inherent in their theology.
Historically, Calvinism worked out by Calvin himself was a rather strict and
dull affair. That should have been the end of it but like Marxism
people seem to keep making the mistake of thinking it has some merit even after
it has failed miserablely time after time. Legalism by any other name
still smells bad.

Personally, I think that those who believe in Calvinism simply demonstrate
that they have had limited direct contact with God. No one, in my
opinion, who has met God and gotten to know Him would ever be deceived into
believing such a doctrine. Our Father is simply not that way.

Calvinistic predestination obviates our free will. Free will is necessary
for choice. Without choice we cannot sin
for sin is a choice. Perhaps Pharaoh was
a vessel to dishonor but he had a choice…a profound choice…at least ten of
them.

It is like making a doctrine out of infinity. It cannot be done for
the concept cannot be fully understood because we, as finite beings, cannot understand it in the
first place. Predestination is like that
for we cannot understand how someone can both be predestined and have free will
at the same time.

Blessings,

Justin
Hi Justin,

Actually, predestination and free will are easily reconciled when understood from a Biblical aspect rather than a Calvinistic aspect. My theology reconciles them nicely.
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear B,

Please share with us how you reconcil the two...I think it would be good for the discussion.

Blessings,

Justin
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Justin Mangonel said:
Dear B,

Please share with us how you reconcil the two...I think it would be good for the discussion.

Blessings,

Justin
HI Justin,

It would be a rather lengthy discussion but I'd be happy to explain. Much of what I believe come from the early writings of the Church and is likely to be different than what many believe today. First I'd like to say that I believe the modern teaching of Predestination is not what the Scriptures actually teach. The word Predestination simply means to predetermine or to determine before hand. In the Scriptures predestination is always referred to the Jews. It's not saying that God chose individuals to salvation before the foundation of the world as is often taught. I know many will balk at this but the Scriptures, when understood in context support this claim. I think the problem comes from people equating predestination with salvation which appears to negate free will. However, the Jews were predestined to adoption yet not all Jews were or will be saved. It would be through the Jews that the Gentiles would later partake of the promises made to Abraham. I'm sure we will need to look at some passages of Scripture but this is basically how I understand it.
 

Justin Mangonel

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Dear B,

I think you have something there and it sounds right to me. Obviously there are problems when people apply predestination to individuals but if you apply it to groups like you said it seems to harmonize. What scritpures do you site to support this view? How do you interpret Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29.

Blessings,

Justin


Dear S,

Great video...makes good points. Very inventive way to get the message across.

Blessings,

Justin
 

dragonfly

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Hi Butch5,

I'm not a Calvinist anymore. I find that none of the 5 points can be shown from Scripture, they are simply inferred from passage that are out of context.
That's a powerful testimony you have. It is welcome!
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
Justin Mangonel said:
Dear B,

I think you have something there and it sounds right to me. Obviously there are problems when people apply predestination to individuals but if you apply it to groups like you said it seems to harmonize. What scritpures do you site to support this view? How do you interpret Ephesians 1:5, 11 and Romans 8:29.

Blessings,

Justin


Dear S,

Great video...makes good points. Very inventive way to get the message across.

Blessings,

Justin
Hi Justin,

Here is my understanding of Ephesians 1:3-12. I can supply more in depth study materials on this view if anyone is interested.
Here is Romans 8:28-3



Romans 8:28-30

Notice all of the verbs are past tense, this whole sequence is a completed act of God. It has already been accomplished; the word glorified is not speaking of a future glorification that is certain. It is speaking of a past glorification that is already complete. Verses 29 and 30, are the evidence to prove verse 28. Paul is telling the persecuted Christians at Rome, that God will work everything for their good. He tells them to look to the past at what God has already done as proof that He will work all things for good on their behalf. Paul says, for those He (God) foreknew He predestined. The Greek word for foreknew is "Proginosko", Pro, meaning before and Ginosko, meaning know. So, who are these people that God knew before? There are actually two questions that need to be addressed here, one, who are these people, and the other is, God knew them before what or when? Let's deal with the second question first as it will bear on the first, before what or when? Paul says those God knew before. He gives us no descriptive terms; therefore we can only conclude that Paul is referring to his present time. So
Paul is basically saying those God knew before right now (the present in Paul's day). Those God knew before the time that Paul was writing his epistle to the Romans. Many will say that this is a reference to a time before the foundation of the world, however there is absolutely nothing in the context of this passage that warrants that interpretation, or even hints at it. So, now that we have established the what and when, let's deal with the other question. Who were these people that God knew before Paul was writing his letter to the Romans? We know from the previous verse that they loved God, so, these would be people such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. They all loved God. Now, let's apply this to the Scripture verses. Paul says in verse 29, those God foreknew, He predestined, or predetermined, to be conformed to the image of His Son. These same people God called. The Greek word translated called is also translated 'to invite'. So, who did God call? The called are men such as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, men who God called out for a purpose.

Paul says that God will work all things together for good for those who love Him. To prove this point to the Christians
at Rome, Paul makes another statement, He says,

Romans 8:29-30 ( KJV ) 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn
among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also
glorified.

God has done all of these things for Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. He has
called, justified, and glorified, them. That is why all of the verbs are in the
past tense. God has already done them. Paul is saying to the Christians at Rome,
look, God had done this for them; He will do it for you also.

He goes on in chapter 9 to further explain the calling of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Stephen100 said:
I think it is obvious. I think the most disgusting thing about Calvinism is the idea that God chooses who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Calvinists will say that people send themselves to hell by rejecting Jesus Christ, yet they also say that God has predestined them not to believe. I find this to be a disgusting heresy.
Jesus chose the 12 apostles
Jesus chose the betrayer apostle judas
Jesus chose Paul as apostle to the gentiles
God chose Israel as the nation to bring salvation

I am not a Calvinist but parts of the bible show that there is an element of pre-destiny involved for Christians .... or at the very least God knows in advance who will be saved and who will not

God even tells in advance that some people will end up in hell.

This whole subject can be looked at from several points of view and we simply do not have a definitive answer at this time ..... so if there is some confusion we should not be blaming each other ..... right ??
 

dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi Butch5,

I hope you don't mind my dumping my objections to your thesis, right here, with very little ado. Your study is well thought out, and I really appreciated the OT scriptures about 'beloved'. I was going along with your thinking for quite a bit, although I had reservations, and then when you said Israel had already received their inheritance, it began to drift apart, in my view, because of Romans 9:4 .... the adoption ... which, yes, only Israelites had received at first, but which is of a completely different order than the arrangement by which God ruled over them through His laws. (At that time, all the patriarchs, including Moses, were never more than servants.) And, because of Hebrews 11:39, 40, (and, Hebrews 9:15, and Romans 4:16).

I can see how the word 'foreknow' could be linked to Israel exclusively in certain contexts, but in Ephesians 1, there is no reason to suppose Paul is excluding all other Gentile saints in existence (by then) from his exposition of of their status as 'accepted in the Beloved'. It's true that Paul addresses them specifically, to make mention of their faith, so that he can go on to explain what he'd been praying for them, but in v 14 he refers to 'our inheritance', which, clearly, includes the Ephesians. And by Ephesians 2:12, it's clear he's including them in 'the commonwealth of Israel', now. The inheritance to which Paul was alluding, is the eternal inheritance, which is what was promised to 'Israel'.

I'm not a reader of the early church fathers, and they seem to have a chequered reputation these days, so I would say - in the light of Romans 4 and Genesis 3, that while Israelites might have got used to being God's peculiar people, God had previously announced His intention to send the Saviour, first to Adam and Eve. Adam overlapped with Methuselah for over three hundred years, and Noah was alive until Abraham was born, so the idea that the only people on earth who knew what God was saying to mankind, were the Jews (latterly) is a fable, (or a modern myth; and you have to contend with Job's account, who obviously knew a thing or two about God, and prophesied freely in certain speeches). Abraham was never 'Israel' by name, nor was he ever 'Jewish' by name (although he kept all God's commandments, laws and statutes). Paul says 'the gospel' was preached to him Gal 3:8, and then he uses the word 'we' - clearly to include Jews and Gentiles together under the blessing of Abraham:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Can I just check... you aren't saying that only Jews are 'accepted in the Beloved', are you? Are you???
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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dragonfly said:
Noah was alive until Abraham was born,...
An interesting side note: Abraham was actually about 57 years old when Noah died, and Shem was alive during Abraham's life much longer. Haran was probably not that far from where Noah and Shem had settled. I have always been of the mind that Abraham met with one or both, and learned things from them that contributed to his great faith.
 

Butch5

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Oct 24, 2009
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dragonfly said:
Hi Butch5,

I hope you don't mind my dumping my objections to your thesis, right here, with very little ado. Your study is well thought out, and I really appreciated the OT scriptures about 'beloved'. I was going along with your thinking for quite a bit, although I had reservations, and then when you said Israel had already received their inheritance, it began to drift apart, in my view, because of Romans 9:4 .... the adoption ... which, yes, only Israelites had received at first, but which is of a completely different order than the arrangement by which God ruled over them through His laws. (At that time, all the patriarchs, including Moses, were never more than servants.) And, because of Hebrews 11:39, 40, (and, Hebrews 9:15, and Romans 4:16).

I can see how the word 'foreknow' could be linked to Israel exclusively in certain contexts, but in Ephesians 1, there is no reason to suppose Paul is excluding all other Gentile saints in existence (by then) from his exposition of of their status as 'accepted in the Beloved'. It's true that Paul addresses them specifically, to make mention of their faith, so that he can go on to explain what he'd been praying for them, but in v 14 he refers to 'our inheritance', which, clearly, includes the Ephesians. And by Ephesians 2:12, it's clear he's including them in 'the commonwealth of Israel', now. The inheritance to which Paul was alluding, is the eternal inheritance, which is what was promised to 'Israel'.

I'm not a reader of the early church fathers, and they seem to have a chequered reputation these days, so I would say - in the light of Romans 4 and Genesis 3, that while Israelites might have got used to being God's peculiar people, God had previously announced His intention to send the Saviour, first to Adam and Eve. Adam overlapped with Methuselah for over three hundred years, and Noah was alive until Abraham was born, so the idea that the only people on earth who knew what God was saying to mankind, were the Jews (latterly) is a fable, (or a modern myth; and you have to contend with Job's account, who obviously knew a thing or two about God, and prophesied freely in certain speeches). Abraham was never 'Israel' by name, nor was he ever 'Jewish' by name (although he kept all God's commandments, laws and statutes). Paul says 'the gospel' was preached to him Gal 3:8, and then he uses the word 'we' - clearly to include Jews and Gentiles together under the blessing of Abraham:

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Can I just check... you aren't saying that only Jews are 'accepted in the Beloved', are you? Are you??
Hi Dragonfly,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I would like to attempt to clear up any confusion. The inheritance in Ephesians 1:11 is different than the one in verse 14. In verse 11 I believe Paul is referring to the land that was given to children of Israel when they entered the promised land. In verse 11 Paul speaks of the inheritance in the past tense and the Jews did receive an inheritance in the land, yet in verse 14 he speaks of a future inheritance which include the Gentiles. I think this help explain how in verse 3-12 Paul is talking about what God has done for the Jews.

28 `But command Joshua, and encourage him and strengthen him; for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which you will see.' (Deu 3:28 NKJ)

I also believe the context of that passage excludes the Gentiles at Ephesus. Paul said,

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, (Eph 1:7-8 NKJ)

yet he says he prays for this very thing for his readers a few verses later.

15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.
(Eph 1:15-18 NKJ)

It makes no sense for Paul be praying this if it was these he was referring to in verse 7 and 8. If they had already received it why would he be praying that they would receive it?

Also, in verse 12 Paul says "we who first trusted in Christ" or before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hole in the Christ.

Tertullian quotes this passage and says that Paul is making a distinction between himself as Jew and the Gentiles

There is also other evidence. In the opening of the epistle he says to the "saints" at Ephesus. Many take this to mean believers and it could. However, look at Paul usage of the very same word in this same epistle. In contrasting the Jew and the Gentile Paul says,

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:11-1 NKJ)

He keep saying how the gentiles have been included in the promises to Israel and then tells them they are no longer strangers but fellow citizens with the saints. I think this is really strong evidence to suggest that the saint's in this instance is a reference to the Jews. In the opening of the epistle he addresses two groups, the saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Jesus Christ.

Here is a link to a paper on this same subject that goes into more detail than I did and it addresses it from the Greek Texts rather than the English. I think it will answer your questions. PFRS Ephesians 1:3-14


Two last points. One, regarding the church fathers, I should be more specific. I am speaking of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. This is the period from the end of the apostle until about 325 A.D. I don't use the writers after this much. I also believe one of the big reasons the early church writers are questioned is because much of their writing refute many modern doctrines. It's easier to say the Church Fathers were wrong than to admit we are.

Secondly, to answer your question.

Can I just check... you aren't saying that only Jews are 'accepted in the Beloved', are you? Are you???
In the way Paul used it, yes as he used it in the past tense. However, this would include proselytes. However, in the sense of being the children of Abraham would Christians also be in the beloved, yes.

I hope that isn't more confusing.

This way of looking at predestination is new to many, however, it fit nicely with the Scriptures. It also alleviates the problems that the modern understand has in trying to reconcile different passages of Scripture. I've found that doctrines of the Ante-Nicene writers are well grounded in the Scriptures and that they don't struggle as the modern doctrines do to accommodate the totality of Scripture. That suggests to me that they are correct.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Butch5 said:
Hi Dragonfly,

Thanks for your thoughts here. I would like to attempt to clear up any confusion. The inheritance in Ephesians 1:11 is different than the one in verse 14. In verse 11 I believe Paul is referring to the land that was given to children of Israel when they entered the promised land. In verse 11 Paul speaks of the inheritance in the past tense and the Jews did receive an inheritance in the land, yet in verse 14 he speaks of a future inheritance which include the Gentiles. I think this help explain how in verse 3-12 Paul is talking about what God has done for the Jews.

28 `But command Joshua, and encourage him and strengthen him; for he shall go over before this people, and he shall cause them to inherit the land which you will see.' (Deu 3:28 NKJ)

I also believe the context of that passage excludes the Gentiles at Ephesus. Paul said,

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, (Eph 1:7-8 NKJ)

yet he says he prays for this very thing for his readers a few verses later.

15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints
16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints.
(Eph 1:15-18 NKJ)

It makes no sense for Paul be praying this if it was these he was referring to in verse 7 and 8. If they had already received it why would he be praying that they would receive it?

Also, in verse 12 Paul says "we who first trusted in Christ" or before hoped in the Christ. It was the Jews who had previously hole in the Christ.

Tertullian quotes this passage and says that Paul is making a distinction between himself as Jew and the Gentiles

There is also other evidence. In the opening of the epistle he says to the "saints" at Ephesus. Many take this to mean believers and it could. However, look at Paul usage of the very same word in this same epistle. In contrasting the Jew and the Gentile Paul says,

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh-- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,
22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
(Eph 2:11-1 NKJ)

He keep saying how the gentiles have been included in the promises to Israel and then tells them they are no longer strangers but fellow citizens with the saints. I think this is really strong evidence to suggest that the saint's in this instance is a reference to the Jews. In the opening of the epistle he addresses two groups, the saints at Ephesus and the faithful in Jesus Christ.

Here is a link to a paper on this same subject that goes into more detail than I did and it addresses it from the Greek Texts rather than the English. I think it will answer your questions. PFRS Ephesians 1:3-14


Two last points. One, regarding the church fathers, I should be more specific. I am speaking of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. This is the period from the end of the apostle until about 325 A.D. I don't use the writers after this much. I also believe one of the big reasons the early church writers are questioned is because much of their writing refute many modern doctrines. It's easier to say the Church Fathers were wrong than to admit we are.

Secondly, to answer your question.


In the way Paul used it, yes as he used it in the past tense. However, this would include proselytes. However, in the sense of being the children of Abraham would Christians also be in the beloved, yes.

I hope that isn't more confusing.

This way of looking at predestination is new to many, however, it fit nicely with the Scriptures. It also alleviates the problems that the modern understand has in trying to reconcile different passages of Scripture. I've found that doctrines of the Ante-Nicene writers are well grounded in the Scriptures and that they don't struggle as the modern doctrines do to accommodate the totality of Scripture. That suggests to me that they are correct.
This Ephesians 1:11 & 14 view. Is this a concoction of your own mind or is it derived from sources and if so, who?
 

Butch5

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JB_Reformed Baptist said:
This Ephesians 1:11 & 14 view. Is this a concoction of your own mind or is it derived from sources and if so, who?
No, it is not my idea. Actually it has very early support as I've shown with Tertullian's quote. If you read the links I've supplied they go into detail and give it's Scriptural support.
 

dragonfly

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Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,

Abraham was actually about 57 years old when Noah died
I've done the math on the numbers given in scripture. That was the basis of my statement. But it happens to agree with others' work, too. Whoever arrived at the 57 year overlap, it seems like they could not have accounted for the time between Adam's death and Noah birth. That would be one way to arrive at that discrepancy. Only Methuselah and Noah's father, were alive during Adam's day, but not Noah.

Without doubt, Abram's life began while Noah's sons were alive, as someone else has shown. http://www.bibleworldhistory.com/BEgypt.htm
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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dragonfly said:
I've done the math on the numbers given in scripture. That was the basis of my statement. But it happens to agree with others' work, too. Whoever arrived at the 57 year overlap, it seems like they could not have accounted for the time between Adam's death and Noah birth. That would be one way to arrive at that discrepancy. Only Methuselah and Noah's father, were alive during Adam's day, but not Noah.
Without doubt, Abram's life began while Noah's sons were alive, as someone else has shown. http://www.bibleworldhistory.com/BEgypt.htm
I've done the math too. The 57 years is based on Abraham being the first born when Terah was 70 years old. If Terah actually followed the pattern of those who preceded him, Abraham was born much earlier in his life, and Noah would have been younger. Numbers in parentheses represent years remaining in Noah's life.

And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. Genesis 9:28 (350)

Shem [was] an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood: (348)
And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: (313)
And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber: (283)
And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg: (249)
And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu: (219)
And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug: (187)
And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor: (157)
And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah: (128)
And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. (58)

Shem lived 152 years longer than Noah (500 - 348 = 152), which means that Abraham was already dead when he died. Isaac was certainly alive during Shem's life; and I haven't done the math, but possibly Jacob was too.

Of course, these numbers are based on the Masoretic Text. The LXX has a different numbers.

The world was fully aware of these prediluvial people living among them. Imagine what effect that would have had on the culture.
 

dragonfly

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Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,

It never occurred to me that other versions of scripture might have different numbers! I do see how you've arrived at that.. .. I concede! :)

The world was fully aware of these prediluvial people living among them. Imagine what effect that would have had on the culture.
Indeed. It explains why so many diverse cultures go back as far as Noah, but no further.

It also explains (perhaps) the God-fearing attitudes of some people alive while Noah was still alive. For instance, maybe Job was able to accept his situation because he was able to put it into the context of God's overall power to turn the whole world upside down if He wanted.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Stephen100 said:
I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?
Obviously you are not a Calvinist .... and neither am I

But Stephen , if you and I were asked point blank if everyone on earth was going to heaven to be with Jesus .... we would answer NO

At that moment we have taken a step toward Calvinism , whether we like it or not

I have always subscribed to the muddled explanation that we make our own choices about Christ .... but he knows who will or will not choose Christ beforehand .

God knows the end from the beginning ..... we cannot comprehend that ourselves ... but that is because of our limitation

If we do not accept pre-destination ..... then we would have to say that God just threw some dice .... and even he does not know the outcome .

This has always been a difficult subject with no clear-cut answers.

Remember that prophecy is telling the future in advance ..... and that is pre-destination at the highest level

best wishes
 

IanLC

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I do not agree with hyper calvanists.

I do believe that God foreknows who will be saved because He is omniscient "all knowing" so of course He will already know who will be saved.
I believe though that He leaves it to man's free will to accept Him and His great salvation.
I do not believe that He has already presdestined some to be saved and others damned. This goes against Him being an all loving God. There would be no need for preaching and evangelizing the world.
I do believe that He is Sovereign and thus does what He wants the way He wants.
I do not believe in once saved always saved doctrine because man have walked away from the faith and many will. This gives way for people to live any kind of way and say that Jesus paid the price so they can keep on sinning. God demands us to be holy thus living a holy lifestyle!
These are some of my beliefs and differences with Calvanism.
 

biggandyy

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Oct 11, 2011
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Calvinism is popularly known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in it's totality. They merely encompass some of its main points.

Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine." Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all.

Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist.

God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s. “All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

See? There is nothing scary or threatening about Calvinism. It seeks mainly to make sure the Holiness, Sovereignty, and Preeminence of God is left intact when dealing with our interactions with Him.