Calvinism?

[Mjh29]

whosoever will may come is then made moot, and imo there's about half of the Bible just waiting for you wadr

...Just like the bird with a broken wing could fly, if it's wing permitted. Nothing is holding it back. So yes, if the bird had the ability, it could fly. Just as if humans had the ability, we could come. But we can't. Because we, in and of ourselves, do not possess that ability. In and of ourselves, we hate God. we aren't looking for Him; naturally we are looking for something to replace Him. we seek out some other God, ANY other God, because by nature we hate the one, true God. So yes, if our natures permitted, we could come unto Him. These verses are not commands, they are simply God making sure that we know it is not Him that holds us back from a relationship with Him, it is our inborn sin nature which does the holding back. Just as the bird, our will is a broken wing, holding our own selves back from the open arms of God.

Whosoever will may come. But none will because no one is good, no not one.

 

[bbyrd009]

...Just like the bird with a broken wing could fly, if it's wing permitted. Nothing is holding it back. So yes, if the bird had the ability, it could fly. Just as if humans had the ability, we could come. But we can't. Because we, in and of ourselves, do not possess that ability. In and of ourselves, we hate God. we aren't looking for Him; naturally we are looking for something to replace Him. we seek out some other God, ANY other God, because by nature we hate the one, true God. So yes, if our natures permitted, we could come unto Him. These verses are not commands, they are simply God making sure that we know it is not Him that holds us back from a relationship with Him, it is our inborn sin nature which does the holding back. Just as the bird, our will is a broken wing, holding our own selves back from the open arms of God.

Whosoever will may come. But none will because no one is good, no not one.

yes, and Job declared that he would never see light again, too right; Job 7:7Remember, O God, that my life is but a breath; my eyes will never see happiness again. Imo you are taking perspectives in Scripture waaay to literally ok, and denying other Scripture in the process. All will be judged for their works done in the body, whether good or evil which i know you have managed to exclude yourself from too, but that won't matter when you are being judged i guess

Calvinists are just Nihilists by another name, mostly, and i could fill the page with Scripture that you will not have an answer for, wanna try?

 

[Mjh29]

yes, and Job declared that he would never see light again, too right. Imo you are taking perspectives in Scripture waaay to literally ok, and denying other Scripture in the process. All will be judged for their works done in the body, whether good or evil which i know you have managed to exclude yourself from too, but that won't matter when you are being judged i guess

And to me this makes absolutely no sense. What exactly is it you believe about this topic? I do not exclude myself from this, I will be judged for the works of the body... but on account of Christ's sacrifice, God has wiped my slate clean. All others, who refused to bow to Christ, will be judged for the works of their bodies and, without the sacrifice of Christ's blood, will be condemned for them.

 

[bbyrd009]

All others, who refused to bow to Christ

see, you have changed the Scripture here to suit your pov,
and you make Jesus into an idol to be worshipped to boot

 

[bbyrd009]

without the sacrifice of Christ's blood

No Son of Man may die for another's sins Mjh, and we are plainly told that God does not want sacrifices, and we are plainly told that it is the Sanhedrin who sought Jesus' blood, not God. Only it is in code so that you can declare where you stand without even realizing it; you are stumping for the Sanhedrin pov here. 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

only you totally realize this, right. Ps the whole nation perished anyway huh. Is God supposed to pick up your cross for you too? So much easier to just "believe," and go to "church" on Sunday to "worship" and bow and scrape to prove your fealty, and just change any definitions that don't fit with your program, huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

the secret to getting rich; sell people what they want

 

[bbyrd009]

Just like the bird with a broken wing could fly, if it's wing permitted. Nothing is holding it back. So yes, if the bird had the ability, it could fly. Just as if humans had the ability, we could come.

your analogy only lacks one thing Mjh; what part of you is physically broken?
fwiw the analogy of a bird flying into a window they cannot see might be more appropriate

 

[Helen]

If I might add, according to Romans 3 “there is NONE that seeks after God.” People can believe, confess, and except Jesus and say it all day 100 times, and they will NOT come one iota closer to God!!!

The ONLY WAY an individual can become saved is IF the Father draws him! John 6:44.

To God Be The Glory

And, If the Father does NOT 'draw them' how can they then be condemned?

 

[bbyrd009]

And, If the Father does NOT 'draw them' how can they then be condemned?

amen. So it should at least be considered that Scripture is a collection of passages designed to confront various perspectives, not so much trying to establish any Absolute Truths imo

first you have to cross the Sea of Reeds iow, and see the little joke inherent in "writing 10 Commandments down in stone," which we already know failed. And those were from God

 

[Nancy]

Mankind seeks after all kinds of false gods and evil; everything but the true God. No one is righteous. All fall short. Man can't create the conviction of repentance within himself in his own dead state.

No man cannot create conviction on his own and that is what the Holy Spirit does, He convicts THE WORLD of sin. Some are just too hardened to even notice His gentle drawings to the point where they will hear nothing.

 

[LC627]

No man cannot create conviction on his own and that is what the Holy Spirit does, He convicts THE WORLD of sin. Some are just too hardened to even notice His gentle drawings to the point where they will hear nothing.

Once you're convicted of your sins it's the greatest "Light bulb moment" of your life. Once you realize the state of your deadness and evil in sin you no longer desire to stay in that situation. All our our hearts are hard. The power of the Holy Spirit can break any heart to repentance. The apostle Paul was the chief of sinners.

Many see no need to repent or that they're wrong. That's the fallen spiritual state of man.

When people ask me, "how do I become a Christian" I ask them, do you know you're a sinner? If they stumble over that and try to justify how they're not that bad, then how can true conversion occur?

 

[Enoch111]

No man cannot create conviction on his own and that is what the Holy Spirit does, He convicts THE WORLD of sin. Some are just too hardened to even notice His gentle drawings to the point where they will hear nothing.

Excellent response. It should be evident to all that Calvinists consistently fail to recognize (1) the POWER of the Gospel and (2) the convicting and convincing POWER of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of souls.

They choose to forget that even though all men are "dead" in their trespasses and sins, they can still be brought to repentance and salvation by the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

1 PETER 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

 

[LC627]

Excellent response. It should be evident to all that Calvinists consistently fail to recognize (1) the POWER of the Gospel and (2) the convicting and convincing POWER of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of souls.

They choose to forget that even though all men are "dead" in their trespasses and sins, they can still be brought to repentance and salvation by the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting of the Holy Spirit.

1 PETER 1
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)

We do not deny the power of the gospel nor the power of the Spirit. Dead men are only brought to repentance through the convicting of the Holy Spirit. Once convicted the person will repent. Once sin is brought to light there is no second guessing. There are many who are unsaved and read the Bible, why is that? Is the power weak? No, it's because they're spiritual dead

MAN LEFT TO HIS OWN DEVICES WILL ALWAYS 100% OF THE TIME STAY LOST.

 

[Jun2u]

And, If the Father does NOT 'draw them' how can they then be condemned?

Because we are all sinners and must give account for our sins. If Jesus did not redeem our sins then we are already condemned. The wages of sin is death.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me” (John 12:32).

In this passage "all men" cannot mean "each and every." If this were so then no one can go to hell. In fact, "all men in this verse pertains to "all believers."

For many are called but few are chosen.

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

There are many who are unsaved and read the Bible, why is that?

tbh i srsly doubt this, as a rule even those who likely consider themselves already "saved" mostly do not read imo, so much as get indoctrinated to a pov

MAN LEFT TO HIS OWN DEVICES WILL ALWAYS 100% OF THE TIME STAY LOST.

Seek your own salvation, with fear and trembling will still be there when you are done determining Absolute Truths, ok

 

[Helen]

If Jesus did not redeem our sins then we are already condemned. The wages of sin is death.

To God Be The Glory

If as we know, the First Adam dropped us all in...it follows that Jesus, the Last Adam brought us all out! Right?

 

[Mjh29]

He convicts THE WORLD of sin.

Then why isn't the world saved? Did God fail?

~ Of course not! God let's us choose!

Then it is man's correct choice that ultimately saves Him?

~ No, it is God's grace that saves us
But his grace only works if we let it... so in reality it is your choice that saved you.

This is always the end result of arminianism: self salvation

 

[Enoch111]

In this passage "all men" cannot mean "each and every." If this were so then no one can go to hell. In fact, "all men in this verse pertains to "all believers."

Sorry but that is EISEGESIS. You are reading in that verse what your dogma requires. Here is what the verse actually says:

κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν
Literally: And I if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to myself ("men" was inserted for clarification, and definitely helps).

Therefore every translation (barring the Catholic Douay-Rheims) says the same thing: "all men", "all people". Which means you are the one distorting Scripture. "All believers"??? That would be absurd.

New International Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
New Living Translation
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
English Standard Version
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
King James Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself."
International Standard Version
As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself."
NET Bible
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
When I have been lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people toward me."
Jubilee Bible 2000
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
King James 2000 Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
American King James Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.
American Standard Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things [false] to myself.
Darby Bible Translation
and I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me.
English Revised Version
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
Webster's Bible Translation
And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.
Weymouth New Testament
And I-- if I am lifted up from the earth--will draw all men to me."
World English Bible
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Young's Literal Translation
and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'

So now the question is, HOW does Christ draw all men to Himself? And the answer is "Via the Gospel".

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [ALL MEN, ALL PEOPLE] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:15,16)

So the Lord already refuted what you said above -- If this were so then no one can go to hell -- by telling you that some would not believe, and that those who would not believe would be damned. How much simpler does it have to get?

So now that you have the evidence before you, are you going to discard your unbiblical ideas or not?

 

[Helen]

κἀγὼ ἐὰν ὑψωθῶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς, πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν
Literally: And I if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to myself ("men" was inserted for clarification, and definitely helps).

When that is read in context...then we read that it is all about JUDGEMENT.
John 12 :-
28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me. "

All what? = All JUDGEMENT.