Calvinism?

[LC627]

@MJ, I assume that the pretty woman in your avatar is your wife. Do you just know about her, or do you know her? And do you know her completely, or are there things about her that you don't yet know or understand?

I suspect that you would say that you know her, but you wouldn't dare say that you know EVERYTHING about her. Truth is a PERSON--Jesus Christ. Our goal as Christians is to KNOW HIM more and more fully and be like Him and reflect His nature in our everyday lives. I hope that none of us would claim that we know Him completely. Even Paul said that we know in part, but we will know even as we are fully known.

When we whittle Christianity down to denominational doctrine, we miss the best element of being a Christian--KNOWING HIM, LOVING HIM. We may win a denominational debate battle, but lose the war of love, which is clearly THE commandment given to us by our Lord! Please, hear my heart on this; I fail everyday at loving as He does.

Why not just admit that we don't yet fully know Him, who is the whole Truth, and agree to disagree with our Christian brothers and sisters about denominational doctrine and move on? Time is short. I think that there will come a day when we regret spending so much time and energy debating other Christians about these things. I know I have regrets along these lines.

I believe you were mentioning me in the first part of your message, not MJ. Yes, that is my beautiful wife. I know her more than any other person in this world and we even though we are married we are still growing in our relationship. That is what relationships do, they grow. I do not see this as a denominational doctrine. The Elect, predestination, the enslavement of man, is all found in scripture. I do not see how people can dismiss how truly mankind is fallen and how deep of an impact it is on mankind. Unless we can have an accurate view of ourselves I don't see how we can truly repent; because we are all completely fallen being.

Not a single person deserves Heaven nor can we can cultivate up the ability to attain our place there. But, I guess many will be walking the streets of Heaven singing their own praises for a "good choice" they made. Many may think it is their own choice but for some reason you'll never hear people praise themselves for making that choice. Deep down they know for a fact that the only thing they contributed to their salvation was the sin that killed Christ.

 

[Nancy]

with all due respect

and ps, you can just highlight it and then search it (in Chrome) or even copy/paste it into a google bar, and i say this bc you can even do this for phrases you might come across for more info etc. i would be revealed for the ignoramus that i am without all this lol

Lol. You are no ignoramus brother, FWIW.

 

[Nancy]

I believe you were mentioning me in the first part of your message, not MJ. Yes, that is my beautiful wife. I know her more than any other person in this world and we even though we are married we are still growing in our relationship. That is what relationships do, they grow. I do not see this as a denominational doctrine. The Elect, predestination, the enslavement of man, is all found in scripture. I do not see how people can dismiss how truly mankind is fallen and how deep of an impact it is on mankind. Unless we can have an accurate view of ourselves I don't see how we can truly repent; because we are all completely fallen being.

@LC627 , which people on this forum do you see who believe this? " I do not see how people can dismiss how truly mankind is fallen and how deep of an impact it is on mankind. Unless we can have an accurate view of ourselves I don't see how we can truly repent; because we are all completely fallen being."

 

[LC627]

@LC627 , which people on this forum do you see who believe this? " I do not see how people can dismiss how truly mankind is fallen and how deep of an impact it is on mankind. Unless we can have an accurate view of ourselves I don't see how we can truly repent; because we are all completely fallen being."

Nancy, man is not righteous. Not one of us. This goes beyond the forum and is a greater issue than many believe it is. As humans, we are not good people.

 

[Nancy]

Nancy, man is not righteous. Not one of us. This goes beyond the forum and is a greater issue than many believe it is. As humans, we are not good people.

Well, yes, quite agree with this and, I am pretty sure most on here DO believe this hence, their need for Jesus Christ. I just do not see an issue here.

 

[LC627]

Well, yes, quite agree with this and, I am pretty sure most on here DO believe this hence, their need for Jesus Christ. I just do not see an issue here.

If man is utterly fallen and a slave to sin, then that means the will of man is not free. It is enslaved. In bondage and by nature rebellious. That's where the issue comes in. Many only accept the part of it which doesn't violate their idea of "fair/freedom" to maintain a sense of control. If we were already free then why does Jesus need to set us free?

 

[Nancy]

If man is utterly fallen and a slave to sin, then that means the will of man is not free. It is enslaved. In bondage and by nature rebellious. That's where the issue comes in. Many only accept the part of it which doesn't violate their idea of "fair/freedom" to maintain a sense of control. If we were already free then why does Jesus need to set us free?

I must say I am quite over stating my views over and over again and hearing yours over and over again. I am tired and just do not have the mental capacity nor the desire to go through it all again? Unless you have something new to say, I have to bow out of this thread with you.
God bless, and see you on the other threads!

 

[Jun2u]

Deep down they know for a fact that the only thing they contributed to their salvation was the sin that killed Christ.

So very true. Great insight.

It reminded me of Luke 23:34 where many Christians believe Jesus was praying to the Father to forgive those that were present at the crucifixion. In actuality, Jesus was praying for every believers’ salvation whose sins that killed Him, as you put it.

What a wonderful and loving Savior we serve!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

Nancy, man is not righteous. Not one of us. This goes beyond the forum and is a greater issue than many believe it is. As humans, we are not good people.

Try telling that to @Episkopos who believes he has righteousness. Of rags maybe.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Episkopos]

Try telling that to @Episkopos who believes he has righteousness. Of rags maybe.

To God Be The Glory

My righteousness is Christ. My perfection is Christ. My holiness is Christ.

Now I could be saying that because I learned this from a religious indoctrination. OR.....it could actually be true.

That is the issue.

It is unfortunate that once a person has been led to believe something...whether it is true or not...it is nearly impossible to dislodge the ego from the promise....whether the promise is vain or not. The ego seeks all the things we hear about in the bible. The uncircumcised heart is wicked in this regard. The unrenewed mind is a pit and a source of iniquity where these things are concerned..


So the trouble is with the ego and pride that religion caters to...with it's promise of a future life.

The truth brings that life immediately.

As for righteousness on the human level. That is for God to judge. Many people like to see themselves as judges of righteousness. These have become experts on the subject by denying righteousness to others based on the simple act of misreading the bible and "there is none so righteous....no not one." This is seen as the key verse that eliminates any other verse in the bible about the righteous.

So to not falsely attributing to me what others do....that is judge who is righteous or not...I leave that to God.

God decides who is righteous. Not the religious ones.

The ego can't help getting things backwards...that is why we are not to judge. The ego is confident in itself and it's superior ability to judge. But only a person who has lost the "self" motivation and has become spiritual can judge with actual righteousness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nancy, man is not righteous. Not one of us.

that is not true wadr, and yes i know the vv. You are taking that too literally, we even have examples of "righteous," several, right?
Scripture is using our same habits of overstating or dramatizing in that passage imo to even go to some lengths to indicate that it is perceptions that are being discussed. If you read "there is none righteous, no not one" and then read "Noah was a righteous man, Job was a righteous man," and then insist that none are righteous, well then see how you have revealed yourself; which was the point imo

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I believe you were mentioning me in the first part of your message, not MJ. Yes, that is my beautiful wife. I know her more than any other person in this world and we even though we are married we are still growing in our relationship. That is what relationships do, they grow. I do not see this as a denominational doctrine. The Elect, predestination, the enslavement of man, is all found in scripture. I do not see how people can dismiss how truly mankind is fallen and how deep of an impact it is on mankind. Unless we can have an accurate view of ourselves I don't see how we can truly repent; because we are all completely fallen being.

Not a single person deserves Heaven nor can we can cultivate up the ability to attain our place there. But, I guess many will be walking the streets of Heaven singing their own praises for a "good choice" they made. Many may think it is their own choice but for some reason you'll never hear people praise themselves for making that choice. Deep down they know for a fact that the only thing they contributed to their salvation was the sin that killed Christ.

Sorry for the mixup in names. I can see by your response that you didn't read my entire post carefully. I believe a lot of things that you mention in your response, just not in a one-sided way, but you've missed my main point again. I'm not trying to disprove Calvinism; I'm just trying to get you to look at it differently--through the lens of THE TRUTH who is Jesus Christ. Be blessed!

 

[Episkopos]

that is not true wadr, and yes i know the vv. You are taking that too literally, we even have examples of "righteous," several, right?
Scripture is using our same habits of overstating or dramatizing in that passage imo to even go to some lengths to indicate that it is perceptions that are being discussed. If you read "there is none righteous, no not one" and then read "Noah was a righteous man, Job was a righteous man," and then insist that none are righteous, well then see how you have revealed yourself; which was the point imo

Amen! The word is there to reveal US....while we are trying to judge others.

 

[LC627]

that is not true wadr, and yes i know the vv. You are taking that too literally, we even have examples of "righteous," several, right?
Scripture is using our same habits of overstating or dramatizing in that passage imo to even go to some lengths to indicate that it is perceptions that are being discussed. If you read "there is none righteous, no not one" and then read "Noah was a righteous man, Job was a righteous man," and then insist that none are righteous, well then see how you have revealed yourself; which was the point imo

This was not of their own doing or works, they were obedient/faithful to God; it wasn't because they were faultless. Our righteousness is not about our works and it certainly isn't who we are in our being. God certainly didn't find any righteous/innocent folks in Sodom

John 3:19,20 - "This, then, is the judgment: The light as come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.

Job 4:17 - Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can even a strong man be more pure than his Maker?

 

[LC627]

Sorry for the mixup in names. I can see by your response that you didn't read my entire post carefully. I believe a lot of things that you mention in your response, just not in a one-sided way, but you've missed my main point again. I'm not trying to disprove Calvinism; I'm just trying to get you to look at it differently--through the lens of THE TRUTH who is Jesus Christ. Be blessed!

What makes you believe I grew up a Calvinist? Could it be possible that I once took your view until I saw it through a different lens?

 

[Episkopos]

This was not of their own doing or works, they were obedient/faithful to God; it wasn't because they were faultless. Our righteousness is not about our works and it certainly isn't who we are in our being. God certainly didn't find any righteous/innocent folks in Sodom

John 3:19,20 - "This, then, is the judgment: The light as come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.

Job 4:17 - Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can even a strong man be more pure than his Maker?

This is so obviously false. You are missing the main point again here. Lot (a resident of Sodom) WAS righteous in God's eyes. Your denial of this just shows a wilful ignorance.

2 Pet. 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

Only a person with really bad reading skills can miss it. (or a religious indoctrination)

 

[LC627]

This is so obviously false. You are missing the main point again here. Lot (a resident of Sodom) WAS righteous in God's eyes. Your denial of this just shows a wilful ignorance.

2 Pet. 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

Only a person with really bad reading skills can miss it. (or a religious indoctrination)

I believe you were missing my point. We all know God rescued Lot so excuse me for not mentioning him since it was common knowledge. I wonder where I would be without your expert knowledge

And I noticed instead of following up on the rest of the post you choose to try and insult me. Not surprising, you kind of get that way when backed in a corner.

 

[Episkopos]

I believe you were missing my point. We all know God rescued Lot so excuse me for not mentioning him since it was common knowledge. I wonder where I would be without your expert knowledge

You mean my English reading skills AND my lack of religious indoctrination. Hey in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

So do you recognize that Lot was righteous?

or are you going to stick with your misunderstanding that "none" is righteous...no not ONE?

 

[LC627]

You mean my English reading skills AND my lack of religious indoctrination. Hey in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

So do you recognize that Lot was righteous?

or are you going to stick with your misunderstanding that "none" is righteous...no not ONE?

Lot was not righteous on his own. Same for Job, same for Abraham. They were obedient to God. Man on his own holds no righteousness. Were you righteous before you became a Christian? If so, why repent?

 

[Episkopos]

Lot was not righteous on his own. Same for Job, same for Abraham. They were obedient to God. Man on his own holds no righteousness. Were you righteous before you became a Christian?

So you read the verse but didn't understand it. God recognized that Lot was indeed righteous....on his own.

In the OT men had to sanctify themselves.

In the OT God was looking for righteous men...like Job. He wasn't making them righteous....He was testing them to see HOW righteous they were.

God still does this. He rewards those that He finds stand up to the test of righteousness.

You will maybe never understand this...but it is all there for non-indoctrinated people to see. It is simple. TOO simple perhaps.
If you can't understand this...how will you ever understand God's righteousness?

If you refute what God calls righteous...you are already against God's righteousness. God judges righteously. But you are against His judgments.