Calvinism?

[Prayer Warrior]

What makes you believe I grew up a Calvinist? Could it be possible that I once took your view until I saw it through a different lens?

You don't know my views! I'm purposefully not posting them here.

Whatever denominational lens you see the truth through, you're going to be off. That's been my point all along! READ MY POSTS! I'm reading yours.

I'm seeing people say, “you're missing my point" over and over from both sides. Maybe we could all stand to listen to one another more carefully.

 

[Helen]

I must say I am quite over stating my views over and over again and hearing yours over and over again. I am tired and just do not have the mental capacity nor the desire to go through it all again? Unless you have something new to say, I have to bow out of this thread with you.
God bless, and see you on the other threads!

Nancy. I believe the weariness come when Christian still see that they are fallen, unrighteous, hopeless etc...That is not what God says of us. There is no victory for God in His children who feel the need to be groveling , "woe is me" and repenting all the time...
We either believe what GOD says about us or we don't.
I love when God spoke to Gideon and said.." thou mighty man of valour.." and there he was shaking and afraid...but God saw what Gideon was "in Him"...not in himself.

People who still think about their sins , their weakness, their failures , are still stuck on themselves...

Our God is an awesome God...He came and He delivered us from darkness into His marvellous light! We are indeed new creatures in HIM.

Yay God!!! \0/ \0/ \0/ Glory to HIS name!!

 

[Helen]

My righteousness is Christ. My perfection is Christ. My holiness is Christ.

Now I could be saying that because I learned this from a religious indoctrination. OR.....it could actually be true.

That is the issue.

It is unfortunate that once a person has been led to believe something...whether it is true or not...it is nearly impossible to dislodge the ego from the promise....whether the promise is vain or not. The ego seeks all the things we hear about in the bible. The uncircumcised heart is wicked in this regard. The unrenewed mind is a pit and a source of iniquity where these things are concerned..


So the trouble is with the ego and pride that religion caters to...with it's promise of a future life.

The truth brings that life immediately.

As for righteousness on the human level. That is for God to judge. Many people like to see themselves as judges of righteousness. These have become experts on the subject by denying righteousness to others based on the simple act of misreading the bible and "there is none so righteous....no not one." This is seen as the key verse that eliminates any other verse in the bible about the righteous.

So to not falsely attributing to me what others do....that is judge who is righteous or not...I leave that to God.

God decides who is righteous. Not the religious ones.

The ego can't help getting things backwards...that is why we are not to judge. The ego is confident in itself and it's superior ability to judge. But only a person who has lost the "self" motivation and has become spiritual can judge with actual righteousness.

YES!! And in that is God's Victory.
We will never be able to stand in the Evil Day, the Last Battle...if we don't know who we are!! Amen Bro...preach it!

...

 

[Nancy]

Nancy. I believe the weariness come when Christian still see that they are fallen, unrighteous, hopeless etc...That is not what God says of us. There is no victory for God in His children who feel the need to be groveling , "woe is me" and repenting all the time...
We either believe what GOD says about us or we don't.
I love when God spoke to Gideon and said.." thou mighty man of valour.." and there he was shaking and afraid...but God saw what Gideon was "in Him"...not in himself.

People who still think about their sins , their weakness, their failures , are still stuck on themselves...

Our God is an awesome God...He came and He delivered us from darkness into His marvellous light! We are indeed new creatures in HIM.

Yay God!!! \0/ \0/ \0/ Glory to HIS name!!

Amen my sister,
I ALWAYS choose to believe who God tells me I am now that I am in Christ and He is in me! I know what my life WAS and I know it is a whole different life I now live in Him. His Spirit gives me His desires, which are pretty much the total opposite of what MY old desires were. I strive daily to do His will. We truly ARE new creatures in Christ! Hallelujah?? ♥

 

[LC627]

My righteousness is Christ. My perfection is Christ. My holiness is Christ.

See, you agree with me the righteousness of the Believer is in Christ (not their own good works)

 

[LC627]

So you read the verse but didn't understand it. God recognized that Lot was indeed righteous....on his own.

In the OT men had to sanctify themselves.

In the OT God was looking for righteous men...like Job. He wasn't making them righteous....He was testing them to see HOW righteous they were.

God still does this. He rewards those that He finds stand up to the test of righteousness.

You will maybe never understand this...but it is all there for non-indoctrinated people to see. It is simple. TOO simple perhaps.
If you can't understand this...how will you ever understand God's righteousness?

If you refute what God calls righteous...you are already against God's righteousness. God judges righteously. But you are against His judgments.

All I am trying to say is that no one can stand before God Holy and righteous on their own works. Outside of Christ there only awaits Judgement

 

[Episkopos]

See, you agree with me the righteousness of the Believer is in Christ (not their own good works)

Yes...a person who enters Christ enters into His righteousness.

But i believe the bible teaches precisely the opposite of what people are taught in so many churches....that is....when we are in Christ....God sees US as righteous. We, on the other hand only see Christ. We do not esteem our own righteousness. God does that.

Luther taught the opposite. He said that when God looks at us He doesn't see us but Christ. We "hide" our true condition, as it were, from God. But I say that when we are in Christ...God doesn't see Christ but us.

He wants us to learn by the experience of being in Christ....which is being formed in us...thereby becoming as Jesus.

 

[Episkopos]

All I am trying to say is that no one can stand before God Holy and righteous on their own works. Outside of Christ there only awaits Judgement

Before God no flesh will be justified. But God will judge who is righteous. The distinction may seem subtle...but it comes down to...who is doing the justifying?

How many believers in Jesus justify themselves because of their beliefs?

So we can't stand before God with either our own works OR our own beliefs. It's all from self.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Before God no flesh will be justified. But God will judge who is righteous. The distinction may seem subtle...but it comes down to...who is doing the justifying?

How many believers in Jesus justify themselves because of their beliefs?

So we can't stand before God with either our own works OR our own beliefs. It's all from self.

Episkopos, in one of your posts you mentioned a language barrier. I don't mean to be nosy, but do you mind my asking what your first language is?

 

[bbyrd009]

This was not of their own doing or works,
they were obedient/faithful to God

which one is it, not of their own doing, or they were being obedient and faithful?
i see you are already kind of addressing these so nevermind, ok, and i suggest you try on dialectics just to get a diff pov, you won't like accidentally get possessed or anything ok

God certainly didn't find any righteous/innocent folks in Sodom

He certainly did i guess, oops

 

[Prayer Warrior]

See, you agree with me the righteousness of the Believer is in Christ (not their own good works)

LC, you're fairly young now, but there will come a day when you see that it's not all that important that others agree with your denominational views. (I'm speaking from experience.) Or you might even drop the Calvinist views altogether and stand on the whole counsel of God's word with all its dichotomies. That's my prayer for you.

Please don't take what I just said as being mean-spirited. I don't mean it that way at all.

When I was young and had the energy, I enjoyed a good debate. But now that I'm older, I wonder what the point is when arguing only serves to divide Christians in an age when the world is showing its hatred for Christians more than ever.

Someday, we'll all see the value of sticking together in spite of denominational differences. The question is what kind of hardships will it take to get us there.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos, in one of your posts you mentioned a language barrier. I don't mean to be nosy, but do you mind my asking what your first language is?

English. But I get along perfectly in French as well.

English in the house....and mostly French outside the house.

 

[Episkopos]

And I noticed instead of following up on the rest of the post you choose to try and insult me. Not surprising, you kind of get that way when backed in a corner.

OK You can read what I'm saying to you. Your English comprehension seems to be very good. But then add a bible verse and your reading comprehension goes out the window.

So either I don't talk to you...or express in some way that this is not acceptable in a discussion. I expect the same level of communication when you read a post OR a bible verse.

We get a lot of crack-pots on these kind of forums. I sounds like you are reasonable...well...until...a bible verse is typed in.

You may live in a world that caters to that kind of treatment of the bible...I don't.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

English. But I get along perfectly in French as well.

English in the house....and mostly French outside the house.

Oh, I see. I know enough Spanish to be dangerous, but I don't know any French at all. The letter sounds don't make sense to me. I guess it's just a matter of learning them.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh, I see. I know enough Spanish to be dangerous, but I don't know any French at all. The letter sounds don't make sense to me. I guess it's just a matter of learning them.

In Montreal and elsewhere in Quebec...you will find a man named say...Richard Taylor....but he doesn't speak a word of English. I can usually tell by the person what language to use when approaching him/her. My wife, who's not from here...doesn't understand how I do it!

 

[Helen]

When I was young and had the energy, I enjoyed a good debate. But now that I'm older, I wonder what the point is when arguing only serves to divide Christians in an age when the world is showing its hatred for Christians more than ever.

Someday, we'll all see the value of sticking together in spite of denominational differences. The question is what kind of hardships will it take to get us there.

Excellent, well said.

Like you...years ago I enjoyed debates.
Sunday dinner was always fun..my dad, my brothers, my husband and myself would go at it... ...( mum and the wives never bothered) ...'iron sharpens iron.'
We'd challenge each other on why believed what we believed.
4 preachers were around the table so the debates lasted hours

We did this with friends also... I started on some Forums about 15 years ago now...back then I would enjoy a debate in a good spirit.

These days ...I come on Site read through all the new posts and threads, but I don't find much that I find inspiring enough to "get in to" ...much seem just words, and one-up-ship....but it is probably a lot to so with age.

What doesn't advance me, or encourages others along the Path can often seem empty and hollow now.

You said:-
"Someday, we'll all see the value of sticking together in spite of denominational differences."

They found that when the Bamboo curtain and the Iron curtain came down. The testimonies showed it.

People get caught up on doctrine and think it so important.
I have never felt ever that God measures doctrine...He looks firstly at the heart and the intent.
The two commandment Jesus gave are what is in the other side of the scale when we are weighed....not doctrine.

I think I lost the lust for "perfect doctrine" when I finally saw the full nature and the Father heart of God and the power of love. When God reveals that to us, then so much in our life changes, we can never be the same.

As things are going in the world, it looks like persecution will come upon the Christians...it has already started again in China ( I know that via my nephew and family who had to get out quickly after 22 years there sharing the word. )..and it has started again in Russia.

It's coming....like you, I do not believe we will think that our pet doctrines will matter so much when it hits...it will cause those who are valiant for the Lord to sand up and be counted.

Bless you...Helen

 

[Episkopos]

Excellent, well said.

Like you...years ago I enjoyed debates.
Sunday dinner was always fun..my dad, my brothers, my husband and myself would go at it... ...( mum and the wives never bothered) ...'iron sharpens iron.'
We'd challenge each other on why believed what we believed.
4 preachers were around the table so the debates lasted hours

We did this with friends also... I started on some Forums about 15 years ago now...back then I would enjoy a debate in a good spirit.

These days ...I come on Site read through all the new posts and threads, but I don't find much that I find inspiring enough to "get in to" ...much seem just words, and one-up-ship....but it is probably a lot to so with age.

What doesn't advance me, or encourages others along the Path can often seem empty and hollow now.

You said:-
"Someday, we'll all see the value of sticking together in spite of denominational differences."

They found that when the Bamboo curtain and the Iron curtain came down. The testimonies showed it.

People get caught up on doctrine and think it so important.
I have never felt ever that God measures doctrine...He looks firstly at the heart and the intent.
The two commandment Jesus gave are what is in the other side of the scale when we are weighed....not doctrine.

I think I lost the lust for "perfect doctrine" when I finally saw the full nature and the Father heart of God and the power of love. When God reveals that to us, then so much in our life changes, we can never be the same.

As things are going in the world, it looks like persecution will come upon the Christians...it has already started again in China ( I know that via my nephew and family who had to get out quickly after 22 years there sharing the word. )..and it has started again in Russia.

It's coming....like you, I do not believe we will think that our pet doctrines will matter so much when it hits...it will cause those who are valiant for the Lord to sand up and be counted.

Bless you...Helen

I like that word...valiant... from the French vaillant ...as in...vaillant guerrier (Brave warrior)

We are to add to our faith "virtue" (Gr. arete) according to Peter. This is a manly courage...the courage of a warrior.

If we confess Jesus before the world...He will confess us before the Father.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Excellent, well said.

Like you...years ago I enjoyed debates.
Sunday dinner was always fun..my dad, my brothers, my husband and myself would go at it... ...( mum and the wives never bothered) ...'iron sharpens iron.'
We'd challenge each other on why believed what we believed.
4 preachers were around the table so the debates lasted hours

We did this with friends also... I started on some Forums about 15 years ago now...back then I would enjoy a debate in a good spirit.

These days ...I come on Site read through all the new posts and threads, but I don't find much that I find inspiring enough to "get in to" ...much seem just words, and one-up-ship....but it is probably a lot to so with age.

What doesn't advance me, or encourages others along the Path can often seem empty and hollow now.

You said:-
"Someday, we'll all see the value of sticking together in spite of denominational differences."

They found that when the Bamboo curtain and the Iron curtain came down. The testimonies showed it.

People get caught up on doctrine and think it so important.
I have never felt ever that God measures doctrine...He looks firstly at the heart and the intent.
The two commandment Jesus gave are what is in the other side of the scale when we are weighed....not doctrine.

I think I lost the lust for "perfect doctrine" when I finally saw the full nature and the Father heart of God and the power of love. When God reveals that to us, then so much in our life changes, we can never be the same.

As things are going in the world, it looks like persecution will come upon the Christians...it has already started again in China ( I know that via my nephew and family who had to get out quickly after 22 years there sharing the word. )..and it has started again in Russia.

It's coming....like you, I do not believe we will think that our pet doctrines will matter so much when it hits...it will cause those who are valiant for the Lord to sand up and be counted.

Bless you...Helen

That's interesting, Helen. I didn't take you for a debater. I did enjoy the back and forth of a good debate when done in the right spirit. It can be a case of iron sharpening iron.

As far as Christian persecution in China, I read that Xi (China's president) is stepping up the persecution--AGAIN! And I just read about the slaughter of Christians, including children and women, in Nigeria. These are just two examples of many.

Honestly, I think that Christians could better use our time praying for our brothers and sisters who are being horribly persecuted rather than debating denominational doctrine.

God Bless, Deborah

 

[Jun2u]

My righteousness is Christ. My perfection is Christ. My holiness is Christ.

No argument here.

This is so obviously false. You are missing the main point again here. Lot (a resident of Sodom) WAS righteous in God's eyes. Your denial of this just shows a wilful ignorance.

The issue WAS NOT whether Lot was righteous rather will God destroy the cities if there were ten righteous! History tells us Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because there were not ten righteous.

Luther taught the opposite. He said that when God looks at us He doesn't see us but Christ. We "hide" our true condition, as it were, from God. But I say that when we are in Christ...God doesn't see Christ but us[/QUOTE]

Luther happens to be correct! When God looks at a believer He sees the “robe” of Christ’s righteousness and NOT the person. If God looked at us He would see a dirty, rotten, sinner.

How many believers in Jesus justify themselves because of their beliefs?

I and all believers!!! Consider what we read in Romans 8:30. “Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.”

We get a lot of crack-pots on these kind of forums. I sounds like you are reasonable...well...until...a bible verse is typed in.

Especially those who claim to be an “overseer” which really are NOT!

bbyrd009 said:
If you read "there is none righteous, no not one" and then read "Noah was a righteous man, Job was a righteous man," and then insist that none are righteous, well then see how you have revealed yourself; which was the point imo

It is not about whether Noah and Job, along with all the believers in the Old Testament, if they were righteous, rather the question is: “when did they become righteous?” The answer is before the foundation of the world. In fact, if Jesus was not slain before the foundation of the world, the Old Testament believers could not become righteous or saved! Scripture is replete that there is none righteous no, not one, and that man is desperately wicked!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Episkopos]

No argument here.



The issue WAS NOT whether Lot was righteous rather will God destroy the cities if there were ten righteous! History tells us Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because there were not ten righteous.
Luther happens to be correct! When God looks at a believer He sees the “robe” of Christ’s righteousness and NOT the person. If God looked at us He would see a dirty, rotten, sinner.

See that's the thing. When we are conformed to Christ...we don't have to hide from God. In fact, God always sees our true condition.

Jesus didn't come to hide us from the Father...but to reconcile who we are with who He is...in Spirit and truth.

What you are speaking of is not of the Spirit, nor is it truth.