Calvinism?

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Episkopos

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God's judgments are higher than man's. Let's not play God. If you call a single when God calls a double...then you are a terrible ump.

Same goes for you crying foul when in fact it stays in the park...just not where you have a good vantage point.

Wait on the Lord for His judgment. Judge nothing before the time.
 
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Enoch111

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The Bible does teach that man is dead in sin.
Of course. At the same time the Bible commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that even those who are dead in sin can definitely respond to the Gospel. It is the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit which should be your focus, not "dead in sin", "dead in sin".

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16).

Do Calvinists even believe and understand the implications of this verse?
 
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LC627

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Of course. At the same time the Bible commands all men everywhere to repent. Which means that even those who are dead in sin can definitely respond to the Gospel. It is the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit which should be your focus, not "dead in sin", "dead in sin".

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16).

Do Calvinists even believe and understand the implications of this verse?

Mankind sees the glory of God everyday through His amazing creation. Man does not desire God while dead in the flesh, all of creation testifies to God's presence and glory and yet everyday it is ignored. The Gospel is powerful and men everywhere are commanded to repent. At the same time the Bible also states that God is the One who chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. Do I believe in the election of God? Absolutely. Does the Bible command everyone to repent? Absolutely. I do not see the two at odds. To those who believe it is power to salvation. Mankind chases after anything but the True God until they are opened to the light of the Gospel. We can tell people about the Gospel of Jesus and people can be aware of Biblical facts but if the conviction is not there, there is no conversion.
 

Nancy

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In reading the article, I don't think the writer understands Calvinism. I used to attack Calvinist too but never ran into any who actually understood their position. It was my hearing the doctrine of Limited Atonement (Calvin did not teach this) that I realized two different Christianities existed side by side. (I heard the doctrine mentioned incidentally through someone attacking it)! And two different versions of Christ exist side by side. I began studying on my own and know what I believe to day. Am I a Calvinist? No, not technically speaking. I'm a Christian who keeps grace and works separate.
As far as I am concerned, I myself DO understand Calvinism very well...too well. I spent much of my time over the decades studying both sides as I was unstable in my understanding.
In reading the article, I don't think the writer understands Calvinism. I used to attack Calvinist too but never ran into any who actually understood their position. It was my hearing the doctrine of Limited Atonement (Calvin did not teach this) that I realized two different Christianities existed side by side. (I heard the doctrine mentioned incidentally through someone attacking it)! And two different versions of Christ exist side by side. I began studying on my own and know what I believe to day. Am I a Calvinist? No, not technically speaking. I'm a Christian who keeps grace and works separate.
I had hoped my OP would not be seen as an "attack" was only looking for a mature debate-we all believe differently on some things and, that should be okay, I just don't want it to get ugly. :)
 
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Enoch111

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We can tell people about the Gospel of Jesus and people can be aware of Biblical facts but if the conviction is not there, there is no conversion.
But that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. It is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings conviction, repentance, and faith.

Kindly read, study, and meditate on Romans 10, which controverts Calvinism and establishes Gospel truth.
 
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Nancy

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We preach and evangelize because that is the avenue in which God has to call those who will be saved. God's sovereignty and mans responsibility fit together. We see in Acts 13:48 that all those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". It seems every so often this topic comes up and I believe for the most part on here we know where most people stand on the subject. Whether God ordained or man simply chooses out of his own free will (which is completely fallen and naturally against everything God stands for) our purpose is to minister the Word to the world regardless. Our mission is to exalt the name of Christ above all else. One thing for sure, we cannot create conviction in the hearts of people and the only reason any of us are Believers is because God convicted us and moved first. If God didn't convict then there would be no Believers in the world because man is evil (every single human)

You can't make a blind man feel sorry that he can't see light
I totally agree that no man can come to God without the Holy Spirit convicting and convincing them of their need for a savior. And, I also believe God's Spirit is doing just that for every single human being.
 
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Nancy

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But you are forgetting that fire also gives off heat. It is not only those who are in the fire that are warm...but also the ones around it.

I say this to illustrate that the idea that man is evil...is false....or that man stands against everything that God stands for. This is a man-made doctrine invented by a very nasty little man called Jean Calvin.

Ironically he actually burned people alive for meeting in homes and teaching without his say so.

So if you understand what I say...you will see it.
Yeah, and he used green wood to burn to prolong the pain...
 

LC627

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But that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. It is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings conviction, repentance, and faith.

Kindly read, study, and meditate on Romans 10, which controverts Calvinism and establishes Gospel truth.
But that's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. It is the POWER of the Gospel and the POWER of the Holy Spirit which brings conviction, repentance, and faith.

Kindly read, study, and meditate on Romans 10, which controverts Calvinism and establishes Gospel truth.

You know what, I won't give you the run-around answer of "I've read it before, etc." I'll actually read it tonight and meditate on it. I have no problem at all with holding my beliefs up to be tested.
 

LC627

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Yeah, and he used green wood to burn to prolong the pain...

It is not about Calvin, people like to make it out to be all about him but it's not. People will use anything they can to shift the focus off the sovereignty of God.

Psalm 103:19 - The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
 

Jane_Doe22

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You know what, I won't give you the run-around answer of "I've read it before, etc." I'll actually read it tonight and meditate on it. I have no problem at all with holding my beliefs up to be tested.
Admittedly I haven't read much of the thread thus far. Are you a Calvinist, @LC627?
 

Helen

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As far as I am concerned, I myself DO understand Calvinism very well...too well. I spent much of my time over the decades studying both sides as I was unstable in my understanding.

I agree...me neither..
PLUS if Calvin himself heard today all the things he was supposedly taught all that time ago...I doubt he would acknowledge it...any more than John Wesley would acknowledge the modern day Methodists...who say that they believe what he taught.
Probably the same for many a preacher. :)
 
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Nancy

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The issue is not fallen mankind, since all Christians know that Adam brought sin and death upon the human race, and that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The issue is the distortion of human beings through what is called "Total Depravity", which even denies that the unsaved have consciences and often follow their conscience. Notice "being altogether averse from that good".

"III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto."
Westminster Confession of Faith

But Scripture does not teach this:

ROMANS 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Also, the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit are denied in bringing men to salvation. Instead Five Point Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they have believed the Gospel. That is patently false.

"Also, the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit are denied in bringing men to salvation. Instead Five Point Calvinism teaches that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they have believed the Gospel. That is patently false."
I had not thought of this before! Yes, it makes Christ's finished work and The Holy Spirit of no affect.
 

Nancy

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I'm glad for you!

This is actually a very well written piece. The author spells out their thoughts, vey logical and reasonable, but refuse the temptation to trash talk other people. I wish more pieces could be of this quality.


Personally, I find Arminianism vs Calvinism to be the largest theological splits in Christendom, and each view has has great implications on the character of God. Still, we can love each other, and continue to shout "Joy to the World" as brothers & sisters in Christ.

AMEN, agreed-the piece was written well and not nasty. And, I am pleased as punch that so far as I have read, haven't gotten to all the reply's yet, there seems to be no nastiness (maybe a few small pellets, but no cannon balls, lol).

"and each view has has great implications on the character of God." Indeed, and that is what concerns me the most.
 

Jane_Doe22

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"and each view has has great implications on the character of God." Indeed, and that is what concerns me the most.
Same here. Like I said, for me this is actually the biggest philosophical difference within different Christian / extended-Christian circles.
(I am a staunch Arminian, FWIW).
 
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FHII

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From being involved for about 2.5 years in a Reformed Baptist church in which my pastor was/is a 5 pointer. For the 6 or so weeks of listening to his sermons, I decided to make an appointment with him, just to introduce myself and give him a little background from whence I came (I love that phrase :) ) During our visit, he told me he was a Calvinist. I knew what a Calvinist was, from a former church and my own reading...library then, lol.
So, as I had not known previously that he had those beliefs, and his sermons did not include any Calvinistic "teachings"...I decided to continue attending for over 2 years. (shocking even myself!, lol) after much prayer. After awhile, I did start noticing undertones creeping in here and there, subtle, but obvious to me! As of almost 6 weeks ago, I am at a different and Awesome local body, I have been there before but was way too far for me so I stopped going there and watched online. They now have a campus like, 10 minutes from me! I fit like a glove there and know several people as well. Never fit in at the other although there are several brothers and sisters there that I miss and are still in touch with. I left on very good terms with the pastor and will continue to support them in what way I can.
I will share a short, simple article in which my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented. So, that said, I hope this thread can be maturely, humbly, and respectfully discussed. Replies are all welcome I just ask that if things get nasty-PLEASE take it to P.M.?
Any Calvinists out there just remember, I love you ♥
Arguments against Calvinism and Predestination


I dont have any more problem with Calvinism than I do with any other school of thought: I agree with some of it and disagree with other parts.

One giant problem I have is thay Calvin himself didn't teach many of its doctrines... At least not than I am aware of.

Calvin wrote alot! Dozens of books and thousands of chapters. 3 of them were on predestination. Yet... That's the tag he gets.

I agree with predestination, but its rather useless to know that God predestinates some. We still gotta run the race and remain faithful. Many fall by the wayside.
 
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Nancy

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It is not about Calvin, people like to make it out to be all about him but it's not. People will use anything they can to shift the focus off the sovereignty of God.

Psalm 103:19 - The LORD has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.
I was simply stating a past fact about a man, not shift anything and not at all making it all about Calvin. I understand that Augustine had an influence on Calvin and other Reformers...it is the doctrine and not the men behind it that I have issue with.
 

Nancy

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Same here. Like I said, for me this is actually the biggest philosophical difference within different Christian / extended-Christian circles.
(I am a staunch Arminian, FWIW).

Seems that you and I will be in agreement on this! :)
 

LC627

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There is no way getting around it. God's election is sure.
He chooses to show mercy to some, and He chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
 

Nancy

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Same here. Like I said, for me this is actually the biggest philosophical difference within different Christian / extended-Christian circles.
(I am a staunch Arminian, FWIW).
"for me this is actually the biggest philosophical difference within"
Yes, and IMHO-because of the implication you and I find
There is no way getting around it. God's election is sure.
He chooses to show mercy to some, and He chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
And, you have every right in the world to choose to believe that :)
 
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LC627

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Admittedly I haven't read much of the thread thus far. Are you a Calvinist, @LC627?



Do I believe Calvin himself would like it if people labeled themselves after his name? Probably not. All glory goes to Christ. (But for the sake of the conversation going on and for people to know where I stand, yes that would be the label)
 
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