Calvinism?

[LC627]

"for me this is actually the biggest philosophical difference within"
Yes, and IMHO-because of the implication you and I find

And, you have every right in the world to choose to believe that

You can't escape it, it's there in Scripture from the mouth of God Himself

 

[Naomi25]

From being involved for about 2.5 years in a Reformed Baptist church in which my pastor was/is a 5 pointer. For the 6 or so weeks of listening to his sermons, I decided to make an appointment with him, just to introduce myself and give him a little background from whence I came (I love that phrase ) During our visit, he told me he was a Calvinist. I knew what a Calvinist was, from a former church and my own reading...library then, lol.
So, as I had not known previously that he had those beliefs, and his sermons did not include any Calvinistic "teachings"...I decided to continue attending for over 2 years. (shocking even myself!, lol) after much prayer. After awhile, I did start noticing undertones creeping in here and there, subtle, but obvious to me! As of almost 6 weeks ago, I am at a different and Awesome local body, I have been there before but was way too far for me so I stopped going there and watched online. They now have a campus like, 10 minutes from me! I fit like a glove there and know several people as well. Never fit in at the other although there are several brothers and sisters there that I miss and are still in touch with. I left on very good terms with the pastor and will continue to support them in what way I can.
I will share a short, simple article in which my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented. So, that said, I hope this thread can be maturely, humbly, and respectfully discussed. Replies are all welcome I just ask that if things get nasty-PLEASE take it to P.M.?
Any Calvinists out there just remember, I love you ♥
Arguments against Calvinism and Predestination

Hi Nancy! I agree with you that this should not, in anyway, be a topic that causes division within the Church. But conversation should be held over it, as it seems to address important issues! I, like others here, wouldn't say I'm a "Calvinist", simply because that label has seemed to morph into something of it's own that is slightly misleading, but I would definitely say I'm not Arminian.
What I'd like to discuss first off, in regards to the article you linked to, is this paragraph:

"My main beef against Calvinism is the belief that God predestined certain people to be "elect"; in normal words, Calvinists believe that God dictated who will be saved before that person was even born. Now, that in itself is not so radical when you stop to consider how God sees time. But what is outragous is how Calvinists believe that man has no free will in the matter. I.e., man does not choose to follow God, God predestines man to follow God and be saved. So they believe that it's not: "Because you have faith in God and follow his ways, God will have mercy on you and save you." Instead, they believe it's: "Because God chose you, you will serve God and be saved." This paper will refute this notion."

In response to this, I would ask how he, or you, would react to this verse:

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9:10–13

Here we have a clear verse that shows two things: that before Jacob and Esau were born God had made a selection of one of them, based not on works but on God's will alone, and that this is for God's purpose of election. In fact, it would seem that indeed, election is a tenet of grace...he chooses us before we have done a single thing, thought a single thought, so we might not look back and go "look! God picked me because I did....!" If we can lay claim to our own "election", let's say, then would that not be a grounds to boast? "I saw my need"..."I saw I was dead in my sins and needed God". I can't see the bible teaching this. Does it not tell us that "no one seeks God" and that our salvation rests entirely on Christ? I must believe when it says "entirely", and that I cannot boast, that it means just that.

 

[Dave L]

As far as I am concerned, I myself DO understand Calvinism very well...too well. I spent much of my time over the decades studying both sides as I was unstable in my understanding.

I had hoped my OP would not be seen as an "attack" was only looking for a mature debate-we all believe differently on some things and, that should be okay, I just don't want it to get ugly.

I don't think the article shows an understanding of the 5 points of Calvinism. I don't question your claim to understanding the points. But many attack their misunderstanding of the issues assuming they are the issues when they are not.

 

[Dave L]

AND ALL WERE SERIOUSLY IN ERROR.

In retrospect, it appears that just as Satan hijacked the early Church through Catholicism, he hijacked the Reformation with Five Point Calvinism (Reformed Theology).

Augustine received approval by the Council of Ephesus in 431. Pelagius (today's popular view) was condemned as heresy.

 

[Dave L]

I'll just say this -- Five Point Calvinism is a gross distortion of the Gospel. I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone has any questions.

Please elaborate.

 

[Dave L]

What happens if "free Will" is true? First, it changes the gospel into law. Needing legalistic obedience performed in the power of the flesh to secure salvation for one's self.

And here's what happens when we change God's grace (unmerited favor) into law (merited favor). It begins when we take "whosoever believes has eternal life" and change it from an announcement (Greek = preaching), and fruit check (that identifies you as one who is saved), into an offer and condition we must meet in the sinful flesh in order to save ourselves. In this case, we read into the announcement a condition. "Whosoever chooses to believe has eternal life.

And this in turn changes God into a bully who offers eternal bliss and rewards to those who "say uncle", or whatever condition they think will work for them. Or it changes God into a bully who threatens to torture them forever unless they give in and toe the mark.

This is not the God of the bible. That in his mercy arbitrarily chose to save helpless sinners by taking his own wrath owed to them, in their place in Jesus on the cross. God would not be good if he did not punish sin. So he remained good by punishing himself, Jesus, in the place of whosoever believes in him. If you believe in Jesus, it is because he died in your place on the cross. You could not believe in any true and lasting way had he not.

God saves all who want to be saved. He rejects those who do not. “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:37)

 

[Episkopos]

God certainly acts sovereignly at times with some people. But the problem with some people is then they make it a rule to judge others by it. It is all too human.

But God doesn't do the same things with everyone.

For some ..there is the irresistible draw of the Holy Spirit. Weeping for sins that do not even come to mind.

Can the Spirit be irresistible? Yes, at times.....but not always.

With others, God uses other means. He doesn't always do the same things.

Why not?

So that we learn God is alive and not a robot in His technique. But this is lost on some people.

So then the power of the Spirit...the draw is powerful....at certain times...and at other times very subtle, like a still small voice.

For some...they don't need the hammer on the head....they can already be guided by the still small voice. That's the point of it anyway. Which is better....for God to have to basically force us to our knees....or to comply with a gentle touch?

So should we look down on others for being MORE attentive than the ones who need a more forceful approach? (like me)

So then the "more in tune" ones among us are not Calvinist. God needs more powerful draws for the slow witted I guess.

I must be very slow-witted because I should be the most stubborn Calvinist...but I acknowledge that others are not as obtuse as I have been. So I can avoid falling into that man-made trap.

 

[Dave L]

God certainly acts sovereignlly at times with some people. But the problem ith some people is then they make it a rule to judge others by. It is all too human.

But God doesn't do the same things with everyone.

For some ..there is the irresistible draw of the Holy Spirit. Weeping for sins that do not even come to mind.

Can the Spirit be irresistible? Yes, at times.....but not always.

With others, God uses other means. He doesn't always do the same things.

Why not?

So that we learn God is alive and not a robot in His technique. But this is lost on some people.

So then the power of the Spirit...the draw is powerful....at certain times...and at other times very subtle, like a still small voice.

For some...they don't need the hammer on the head....they can already be guided by the still small voice. That's the point of it anyway. Which is better....for God to have to basically force us to our knees....or to comply with a gentle touch?

So should we look down on others for being MORE attentive than the ones who need a more forceful approach? (like me)

So then the "more in tune" ones among us are not Calvinist. God needs more powerful draws for the slow witted I guess.

I must be very slow-witted because I should be the most stubborn Calvinist...but I acknowledge that others are not as obtuse as I have been. So I can avoid falling into that man-made trap.

It would be good to see you expound scripture on any of your points.

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy! I agree with you that this should not, in anyway, be a topic that causes division within the Church. But conversation should be held over it, as it seems to address important issues! I, like others here, wouldn't say I'm a "Calvinist", simply because that label has seemed to morph into something of it's own that is slightly misleading, but I would definitely say I'm not Arminian.
What I'd like to discuss first off, in regards to the article you linked to, is this paragraph:

"My main beef against Calvinism is the belief that God predestined certain people to be "elect"; in normal words, Calvinists believe that God dictated who will be saved before that person was even born. Now, that in itself is not so radical when you stop to consider how God sees time. But what is outragous is how Calvinists believe that man has no free will in the matter. I.e., man does not choose to follow God, God predestines man to follow God and be saved. So they believe that it's not: "Because you have faith in God and follow his ways, God will have mercy on you and save you." Instead, they believe it's: "Because God chose you, you will serve God and be saved." This paper will refute this notion."

In response to this, I would ask how he, or you, would react to this verse:

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” - Romans 9:10–13

Here we have a clear verse that shows two things: that before Jacob and Esau were born God had made a selection of one of them, based not on works but on God's will alone, and that this is for God's purpose of election. In fact, it would seem that indeed, election is a tenet of grace...he chooses us before we have done a single thing, thought a single thought, so we might not look back and go "look! God picked me because I did....!" If we can lay claim to our own "election", let's say, then would that not be a grounds to boast? "I saw my need"..."I saw I was dead in my sins and needed God". I can't see the bible teaching this. Does it not tell us that "no one seeks God" and that our salvation rests entirely on Christ? I must believe when it says "entirely", and that I cannot boast, that it means just that.

As far as I can go with this elect few who God chooses, is that of course God can do anything He wants and, yes, He knew us from before the foundation of the earth. I do believe God does know who will and who will not follow His only begotten Son. So, I do believe in the case of Jacob and Essau, God utilized Essau for a vessel onto dishonor because He already had His plan for Jacob and foreknew What Essau would become. This I can understand. But I will never understand our God FORCING anyone to love and obey Him...how is that even biblical?
Okay, if one were to believe in the doctrine of individual selection, these scriptures would have to be disregarded:

1 Peter 1
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
These are just a few...so-
Who refuses? God or Man?

 

[Dave L]

As far as I can go with this elect few who God chooses, is that of course God can do anything He wants and, yes, He knew us from before the foundation of the earth. I do believe God does know who will and who will not follow His only begotten Son. So, I do believe in the case of Jacob and Essau, God utilized Essau for a vessel onto dishonor because He already had His plan for Jacob and foreknew What Essau would become. This I can understand. But I will never understand our God FORCING anyone to love and obey Him...how is that even biblical?
Okay, if one were to believe in the doctrine of individual selection, these scriptures would have to be disregarded:

1 Peter 1
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
These are just a few...so-
Who refuses? God or Man?

Christ took the punishment for all who want to be saved. And let those who do not want to be saved suffer for their sins. “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:15)

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, Even of thy holy temple.” (Psalm 65:4)

 

[LC627]

But what is outragous is how Calvinists believe that man has no free will in the matter. @Naomi25

This statement here shows that you are misunderstanding the concept. Man has a will, a free agency, we can make choices and think, etc, we are not free in the fact that we are "slaves of sin". the nature of man is fallen and enslaved to sin and in this corrupt state humans can't / won't submit to God. The will / nature of man is not "free" if it is a slave to sin. In fact, it's crazy to believe that someone takes credit for coming to God all on their own ability when they never would have unless He convicted them first. So in reality it was never your own free choice alone.

 

[Episkopos]

But what is outragous is how Calvinists believe that man has no free will in the matter. @Naomi25

This statement here shows that you are misunderstanding the concept. Man has a will, a free agency, we can make choices and think, etc, we are not free in the fact that we are "slaves of sin". the nature of man is fallen and enslaved to sin and in this corrupt state humans can't / won't submit to God. The will / nature of man is not "free" if it is a slave to sin. In fact, it's crazy to believe that someone takes credit for coming to God all on their own ability when they never would have unless He convicted them first. So in reality it was never your own free choice alone.

Sure...just forget the box you came packaged in...and stop judging others...and you'll do just fine!

 

[LC627]

As far as I can go with this elect few who God chooses, is that of course God can do anything He wants and, yes, He knew us from before the foundation of the earth. I do believe God does know who will and who will not follow His only begotten Son. So, I do believe in the case of Jacob and Essau, God utilized Essau for a vessel onto dishonor because He already had His plan for Jacob and foreknew What Essau would become. This I can understand. But I will never understand our God FORCING anyone to love and obey Him...how is that even biblical?
Okay, if one were to believe in the doctrine of individual selection, these scriptures would have to be disregarded:

1 Peter 1
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

John 3
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.
These are just a few...so-
Who refuses? God or Man?

So it's OK for God to elect a few people from time to time? Was it God's conviction that brought you to repentance and understanding or your own self? And if God didn't first convict you would you have ever come to Jesus on your own? And did God violate your will by convicting you? Absolutely not, once someone sees the light they rejoice and repent.

 

[Episkopos]

So it's OK for God to elect a few people from time to time? Was it God's conviction that brought you to repentance and understanding or your own self? And if God didn't first convict you would you have ever come to Jesus on your own? And did God violate your will by convicting you? Absolutely not, once someone sees the light they rejoice and repent.

Many are called but few are chosen...and fewer still are deemed faithful. That's because we retain free will.

 

[Mjh29]

Many are called but few are chosen...and fewer still are deemed faithful. That's because we retain free will.

... So... are we chosen or do we choose?

 

[Episkopos]

... So... are we chosen or do we choose?

Both! At different times and in different ways to different people on different levels.

SOLI DIFFERENTI

 

[Mjh29]

Both! At different times and in different ways to different people on different levels.

SOLI DIFFERENTI

So... God changes his mind and sometimes chooses some and sometimes lets us choose him? How is that fair to those who werent choosen?

 

[Episkopos]

So... God changes his mind and sometimes chooses some and sometimes lets us choose him? How is that fair to those who werent choosen?

Not changes his mind...He is a great sculptor. His ways are above our own boxy ways. He is an artist.

If you really want to be a witness to the truth...drop the human understanding. ....and just gaze in awe at the wonder of God!

 

[Mjh29]

Not changes his mind...He is a great sculptor. His ways are above our own boxy ways. He is an artist.

If you really want to be a witness to the truth...drop the human understanding. ....and just gaze in awe at the wonder of God!

I do. Through His word, which states that He is "The same yesterday, and today, and forever." He Doesnt change his standards or His mind, like you claim He does.

 

[Episkopos]

I do. Through His word, which states that He is "The same yesterday, and today, and forever." He Doesnt change his standards or His mind, like you claim He does.

Oh please....you're adding in your ideas again. Did you realize that "ways" as in God's ways...are plural. You have it singular.

So then your ideas are like a one track mind with some derailed notions....but not God's.