Can a Person be Born Homosexual?

[lforrest]

.


Judgmental Christians don't seem to understand just how difficult it is for
bona fide gays and lesbians to discontinue what for them is a normal lifestyle.

When it's appreciated how difficult it would be for straights were they
required to go same sex, then it can be appreciated why we should
sympathize with the predicament that gay and lesbian folks find themselves
in when they convert to Christianity-- the meanwhile being bashed over, and
over, and over again with the Bible they're disgusting and deserve nothing
but the worst.

Never judge another man,
Until you have walked a mile in his moccasins.
Native American Proverb

Christ's followers are called to be priests. Well according to Heb 2:17, it's
necessary for priests to be merciful, i.e. compassionate: roughly defined as
sympathetically aware of another's distress. In point of fact, Christians lacking
compassion are set up for a fall.

• Matt 5:7 . . Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

• Jas 2:13 . . For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy.

* You know, I probably shouldn't be quoting a beatitude; they've pretty much
gone out of vogue.
_

If the Truth is divisive let us be divided accordingly.

 

[bbyrd009]

Then why waste everyones time here posting anything at all? This is a discussion board!

well RN, there are many who read and never comment, and also your posts are searchable worldwide, so you have more impact than you might imagine wadr; i discovered forums by searching for some phrase or other

And I still await for you to define what homosexuality is on your "another level". You did not define it on this thread and I will not search thousand sof threads to try to find if you did or not.

well at the time the posts were just hours old—was that yesterday morning? Yikes, a lifetime ago now lol. Anyway, i wasnt meaning to be coy ok, and ill repeat them even though i hesitate to do so, bc i can only poorly describe what i have seen, and another might come along with a clearer vision or description, but our Congess “Old Boys Club“ might be a good analogy, of a situation where only logic is allowed, or for “women” some similar analogy where emotions reign, basically anywhere that the two are prevented from becoming one

 

[bbyrd009]

Whether I am or not- why don't you tell us what homosexuality means on your "another level". Then we can move on to discussing my wisdom or not.

i hope you understand that i am no different, ok, its something that i must die daily to myself

 

[bbyrd009]

Now I know why you post as someone full of hate and sarcasm and with little to no knowledge of our faith, those tactics fail to hide those facts btw.
You're completely confused as to where you are.

Poor soul.



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ha, you might be right!

However i doubt anyone could convince me that rhema is Pneuma, even if it is inspired; just diff pathways imo. Pneuma comes from the mouth of babes, i think. Word is almost always accompanied by “heard” in the Bible…cant think of any instances where it isnt, actually. But fwiw i generally ignore this argument, believe that the Bible is Word for as long as you like imo

”In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God”
there, fixed it for you

 

[Angel Faith]

ha, you might be right!

However i doubt anyone could convince me that rhema is Pneuma, even if it is inspired; just diff pathways imo. Pneuma comes from the mouth of babes, i think. Word is almost always accompanied by “heard” in the Bible…cant think of any instances where it isnt, actually. But fwiw i generally ignore this argument, believe that the Bible is Word for as long as you like imo

”In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God”
there, fixed it for you

No, you did not fix anything for me. You instead proved I was right about you.

You earlier stated to me, if I go to heaven you hope you go to hell.
Of course a Christian doesn't think that way about anyone. Much less say that of themselves.

From reading you, you're already in Hell.
bbyrd009 the Groper, as you call yourself here, you obviously desperately need to fix yourself.

 

[bbyrd009]

hope your magnifying glass is sharpened lol; cant figure out how to enlarge here anymore!lawyers seek proof and facts, huh

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A person cannot be born a homosexual just as a person cannot be born an adulterer, liar, thief, murderer, rapist, etc for sin is not something men are unconditionally, innately born with but sin is a transgression people choose to make. God cannot rightly, justly condemn a person if they were innately, unconditionally born a sinner. God did not create people with a gay gene nor a gene to steal, lie, rape or murder for if He did then He would be accepting of this behaviour for He cannot rightly, justly condemn men for how He created men. If men were born sinners that would give them a justifiable excuse for their behaviour.

Since sin is a transgression of God's law and not just an abstract idea that is passed from person to person or a substance as a gene that is passed from person to person. Therefore it is impossible for anyone to be born a sinner therefore no one can use their birth as an excuse for being a sinner. But fully accountable people can be justly, righteously held accountable for their choice in choosing to sin hence men are not born victims of sin but become wilfull perpetrators in choosing to sin. No one therefore can blame God for their sinning, cannot blame the devil for their sinning (the devil made me do it) nor blame another person for their sinning (Gen 3:12).
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1. No one is born spritually dead nor is anyone a sinner apart from being 'drawn away' and 'tempted of his own lust' and 'enticed' which is something not possible at birth....therefore physical birth is not what 'bringeth forth death'.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, you did not fix anything for me. You instead proved I was right about you.

You earlier stated to me, if I go to heaven you hope you go to hell.
Of course a Christian doesn't think that way about anyone. Much less say that of themselves.

From reading you, you're already in Hell.
bbyrd009 the Groper, as you call yourself here, you obviously desperately need to fix yourself.

ok tks, and have a nice day ok

 

[MatthewG]

God knows all the history reports of every human created. That is all I know, according to that we all stand guilty before Him, in need of a savior and a new spiritual life through Jesus Christ. God sees the heart of all individuals, he knows those seek Him in faith… and have love for Him and others.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Good point.
In my view it is always a mistake to permit Satanists or Atheists full access to the boards in a Christian community.

They're always disruptive.

Well I do n't mind them here. Who knows? they just may get enough of the gospel in them to get saved!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

well RN, there are many who read and never comment, and also your posts are searchable worldwide, so you have more impact than you might imagine wadr; i discovered forums by searching for some phrase or other

well at the time the posts were just hours old—was that yesterday morning? Yikes, a lifetime ago now lol. Anyway, i wasnt meaning to be coy ok, and ill repeat them even though i hesitate to do so, bc i can only poorly describe what i have seen, and another might come along with a clearer vision or description, but our Congess “Old Boys Club“ might be a good analogy, of a situation where only logic is allowed, or for “women” some similar analogy where emotions reign, basically anywhere that the two are prevented from becoming one

And what does this word salad have to do with you defining what homosexuality is sin means on your "another level"?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

i hope you understand that i am no different, ok, its something that i must die daily to myself

Still waiting for you to define "homosexuality on another level".

 

[bbyrd009]

Still waiting for you to define "homosexuality on another level".

which is why i demurred, Rn
have a nice thanksgiving

 

[Angel Faith]

Well I do n't mind them here. Who knows? they just may get enough of the gospel in them to get saved!

If God calls and they respond, yes. Let it be so.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

A person cannot be born a homosexual just as a person cannot be born an
adulterer, liar, thief, murderer, rapist, etc for sin is not something men are
unconditionally, innately born with but sin is a transgression people choose to
make.

Your predilections, along with your proclivities, define you just as much as
your conduct. For example; it's possible to be a murderer without killing
anybody (1John 3:15) and it's possible to be an adulterer without sleeping
with someone (Matt 5:28) and if you'd prefer to be dishonest sometimes
rather than always tell the truth, then you're a liar. (Rom 3:4)

NOTE: Where Rom 3:4 says "every man" it means every human being regardless
of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of course would include
infants.

• Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.
_

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

.


Your predilections, along with your proclivities, define you just as much as
your conduct. For example; it's possible to be a murderer without killing
anybody (1John 3:15) and it's possible to be an adulterer without sleeping
with someone (Matt 5:28) and if you'd prefer to be dishonest sometimes
rather than always tell the truth, then you're a liar. (Rom 3:4)

NOTE: Where Rom 3:4 says "every man" it means every human being regardless
of age, race, gender, or religious preference; which of course would include
infants.

• Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go
astray from birth.
_

If an accountable person, who has learned right from wrong, lusts or hates in his heart then that is sinful just as the acts of adultery or murder. Yet infants are not capable of either for they are not accountable to God's law (Rom 7:8-9) and they do not have the mental capacity to even understand or commit lust, adultery, murder etc. (Deut 1:39; Isa 7:15-16).

=====================

"every man" as you seem to understand it, must also include Christ if it includes infants and those born with severe mental disabilities, no exceptions are made.

In the first 2 chapters of Romans, Paul proves that Gentiles are sinners (Rom 1) and that Jews are sinners (Rom 2). Jew and Gentile made up ALL of mankind......Jews have sinned, Gentiles have sinned therefore ALL (Jew and Gentile) have sinned.

Rom 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."
The gospel is the power of God to every one that believeth. Who makes up "every one"? The two groups Jew and Gentile/Greek. This means ALL (Jew and Gentile) are in need of the gospel's salvation. Infants are not born lost sinners therefore have no need for salvation of the gospel for they cannot even understand the gospel, have no language skills to be taught the gospel nor have the mental capacity to be able to have faith, unable to obey the gospel of Christ (2 Thess 1:8).

Therefore in the first 3 chapters of Romans, Paul does not speak about any particular individuals but refers to mankind ("all") being made up of the two groups Jew and Gentile. Hence the two groups Jew and Gentile make up "all".

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all (Jew & Gentile, the "every one" of Rom 1:16 needing salvation) and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (no difference between Jew & Gentile)
Romans 3:23 - For (explanatory preposition giving meaning to previous verse) all (Jew & Gentile) have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The phrase "have sinned" shows personal culpability in wilfully committing sin, not passively, unconditionally inheriting sin from another person.

Rom 3:12-18 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

1) the language here does not describe infants.....infants cannot speak therefore cannot speak deceits or cursings or even understand what deceit or cursings are. Infants cannot murder/shed blood, they cannot even understand or concieve what destruction misery or peace are.

2) Paul says they are "gone out of the way" NOT "born out of the way" and "become unprofitable" NOT "born unprofitable" again showing personal culpability in wilful sinning. For one is NOT born a sinner but one BECOMES a sinner when one who is accountable to God, knowing right and wrong chooses to sin, THEN sin springs up (Rom 7:8-9), This obviously excludes infants who are neither accountable to God nor have the mental ability to understand right from wrong.

3) the context of Roms 3:10-18 Paul is specifically directing these verses towards the group Jew and not every single person universally per verse 19 that says "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law:..." It was the group Jew who was under the law. It was the group Jew that was guilty of all the sins Paul quotes from the OT in verses 10-18. Paul here is telling the Jews that they are no better than the Gentiles for Jews are sinners too for even the OT law that was given to the Jews says the Jews are sinners.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

============================



Ps 58:3 . . The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth



David is obviously using highly poetic, figurative language for infants cannot speak lies, they do not even understand the concept of lying.



"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD."

These four verses contain several vivid figures, e.g., the hyperbole, the simile, and metonymy. Hyperbole is an exaggeration for emphasis’ sake; simile is a comparison between two objects by the use of “like” or “as,” etc., and metonymy involves the substitution of one name for another in order to stress an important truth.

One of the most significant sources of erroneous views about the Bible is the failure to discern the difference between the literal and the figurative expressions of Scripture. And that is precisely the problem in reading this text, and concluding that it provides substance for the doctrine of “original sin” or “hereditary total depravity,” i.e., the notion that infants are born in sin. Our response to this question, therefore, involves an understanding of several important principles of interpretation.

First, the Bible teaches — in unambiguous prose — that moral responsibility for sin comes in the “youth” of one’s life, and not at the point of one’s conception, or birth (see Gen. 8:21; Isa. 7:16, etc.). For a more detailed discussion of this point, we refer the reader to our companion article on Original Sin and a Misapplied Passage. Passages such as Psalm 51:5; 58:3ff, which are highly figurative in composition, must be brought into harmony with the literal language of prose – not the reverse.

Second, when one presses the language of these two Psalms, in order to extract the dogma of “original sin,” he encounters some insuperable difficulties.

Consider the following points.

A contradiction​

If the language of Psalm 51:5 and 58:3-6 is to be pressed literally, then one encounters a contradiction between the two texts. Psalm 51:5 would teach that the child is a sinner from the moment of his conception, whereas Psalm 58:3 would suggest that the infant does not “go astray” until he is born — nine months later. Which is it – if the text is strictly literal?

Going astray​

The fact that the sinner is said to “go astray” (Psa. 58:3), rather than being “born astray,” reveals the individual’s personal culpability, rather than Adam’s responsibility (as in the “original sin” theory). Compare Isaiah’s declaration: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way” (Isa. 53:6). No one is considered “sinful” on account of the sins of someone else (Ezek. 18:20).

An impossibility​

A literal interpretation of Psalm 58:3 involves an impossibility. It has the infant “speaking” lies as soon as it is born, which every parent knows is not the reality. It is the case, however, that we often figuratively (using hyperbole) refer to the language that one has spoken most of his life as the tongue of his “birth” (cf. Acts 2:8).

Similarly, the fact that these “estranged” people are said to have “teeth” at the point of birth (v. 6) is further evidence that the sacred writer is not speaking of a literal, newborn child. Can anyone cite a case of where a day-old child has told a lie?

Kill the baby?​

If the text of Psalm 58:3ff is to be pressed literally, these little ones who are “speaking lies” must have their teeth broken (v. 6). And since they are compared to poisonous snakes, the implication is that they should be killed so that their venom will not be deadly to others. Can the reader not see the gross error in pressing this language into a literal mold?

Lions or people?​

If the language of Psalm 58:3-6 is literal, one must conclude that the divine writer was not dealing with human beings at all, but with “lions” — and, in fact, lions that spoke lies (v. 6). What is this: an example of figurative language, or some kind of Walt Disney production?

One of the cardinal rules of Bible interpretation is that one must never force a scriptural statement into a situation wherein an absurdity is affirmed. Such certainly would be the case, however, if the “original sin” interpretation of this passage is maintained.

The meaning of the text, then, is simply this. When the panorama of one’s life is viewed as a whole, relatively early in life each rational person begins to move away from God into a sinful state of spiritual rebellion. He utters things contrary to the will of God – his speech being a commentary on the disposition of his heart (cf. Mk. 7:21). He does not listen and respond to the voice of the Lord. Such conduct, therefore, if pursed continuously, is worthy of punishment.

As one writer observes, these enemies of the Lord “are so evil, it seems as if they had been born to it (cf. Ps. 51:5). This is literally impossible, and those who use this verse to argue for infant depravity surely miss the author’s point” (Ash 1980, 198).

It is not the case that one goes astray and speaks lies from his mother’s womb in a literal sense, any more than it was a reality that Job was caring for orphans and widows from his mother’s womb (Job 31:18). Why is the Psalms passage considered to be literal, while the Job text is acknowledged to be figurative?

It is interesting to observe that Albert Barnes, the renowned Presbyterian commentator who believed in the dogma of “original sin,” conceded that this doctrine could not be sustained from this passage by itself. He said this text spoke of the fact that men “develop a wicked character” fairly “early” in life. He acknowledged that the concept of “original sin” would have to be found elsewhere in Scripture before this context could be said to lend any support to the idea (1980, 138).

Note: Barnes’ view of “original sin” was somewhat confusing. He once wrote: “The notion of imputing sin, is an invention of modern times .... Neither the facts, not any proper inferences from the facts, affirm that I am, in either case, personally responsible for what another man did before I had an existence” (1830, 7; emphasis original).

The reality is — the doctrine of “original sin” is not found in Psalm 58, or elsewhere in the Bible.

Does Psalm 58 Teach "Original Sin"?

A sincere reader believes that Psalm 58:3-6 teaches that infants are "born in sin." But this is a mistaken view of the figurative nature of the poetic language. Study this issue with us.

christiancourier.com

 

[thelord's_pearl]

If someone is born homosexual, however, it's still because of sin, that the parents perhaps did drugs or had to take drugs that ruined the chemistry of the baby.

 

[Gospel Believer]

.


So is dishonesty; which I will now show you from the Word of Almighty God

• Lev 19:11 . . You shall not deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

• Rev 21:8 . . All liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and
brimstone, which is the second death.

• Rev 21:27 . . No one who practices lying, shall ever come into the holy
city, the new Jerusalem.

Same-sex lovers represent an insignificant percentage of the Earth's
population. There are far more folks on Earth practicing dissembling; which
can be defined as concealing your true feelings by deliberately giving people
the impression that you feel some other way. Now that you know about
dissembling, watch how often you do it in the weeks to come. I think you'll
be surprised how often you've been practicing dissembling without thinking
because it's so natural.

Here's some additional common forms of dishonesty.

Whoppers
White lies
Deception
Side-stepping
Denial
Guile
Half truths
Making promises with no intention of keeping them
Slander
Pretense
Feigning innocence
Falsifying information
Putting up a front
Misleading information
Rationalizing
Embellishing
Deliberate omission of pertinent facts
Hyperbole
Semantic double speak
Insincerity
Sophistry
Spinning
_

I once heard J.Vernon Mc Gee preach that God equated Gossip with Murder.....something else to think about if one wants to discuss sinning....

 

[dhh712]

.


Judgmental Christians don't seem to understand just how difficult it is for
bona fide gays and lesbians to discontinue what for them is a normal lifestyle.

When it's appreciated how difficult it would be for straights were they
required to go same sex, then it can be appreciated why we should
sympathize with the predicament that gay and lesbian folks find themselves
in when they convert to Christianity-- the meanwhile being bashed over, and
over, and over again with the Bible they're disgusting and deserve nothing
but the worst.

Yes, I agree. When I regard homosexuality, I look at it in a similar way as anger and selfishness and things more common like that. I feel the "problem" if we can call it that with the outrage over homosexuality (though I feel it has much merit--someone once said on these forums, it gets a lot of air time; I understand the LGBTQ movement as the propaganda by which Satan is striving to darken the truth of God's word. He has produced much success with this movement by transforming himself into an "angel of light": the "love" mantra which we see attached to the LGBTQ propaganda. God in His justice and mercy and love of course, is caricatured into a God that is love and that's it--he loves everything and anything and everyone is right with him as long as you love something, it doesn't matter what it is).

That was a long ( ), but the problem with this outrage is that it appears to elevate the sin of homosexuality into like an unforgivable one. So, to bring it down to the level of what it actually is, I think it helps to compare it to the sin that everyone of us has: anger and selfishness (for those who say they don't have this problem, they don't know what these sins entail and how completely it permeates every part of our bodies; some of course, have this problem less or more than others).

The battles we wage over our own sins in these categories are things we habitually struggle with and with many it is a very "normal" way of life, like that anger that flares over a "bad" driver on the highway is just as natural as touching our hand to a hot stove and drawing it back. That I understand is the same naturalness as a homosexual has for same-sex attraction. Thus, I feel if we look at this kind of sin in the same way as our anger, it helps us to not be as judgmental.

I once heard J.Vernon Mc Gee preach that God equated Gossip with Murder.....something else to think about if one wants to discuss sinning....

It is murder, because we are tearing down the reputation of another person (gossip usually discusses something bad that a person has done). "Do not murder" involves not only not taking a person's life in hatred but also building up a person's life and endeavoring to be a conduit of blessing to them (and not to get too carried away with this, as some are prone to do, this does not mean that we give a person everything which he or she desires, but just what would be to profit them in manner which is pleasing to God. For example, were this person to covet riches and material things for themselves, then it would not be good to pile on more and more material thing onto them for that would bolster their sin of selfishness. A more clear example perhaps would be should a person desire to murder others, well then of course we would not present them with bodies for sacrifice. It must all be done within the prescribed way that God wills us to walk in this life).