Can one be saved while they are all alone?

[atpollard]

No, but in times past a lot of babies died during the birth process. To do it right someone needs to help. I hope we are going somewhere with this. If you think that water refers to sac fluid then just go ahead and say it.

So we established that for our natural birth, our mother gave birth to us without any necessary effort by us or anyone else. Someone may have helped her give birth, but the mother is the one who gave birth and she was going to give birth with or without any outside assistance. In any case, the baby being born provided no assistance in their birth ... they were just pushed along for the ride whether they wanted it or not.

• [John 3:5 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“unless one is born” ... in this analogy, we are the one being born, so our role in this ‘second birth’ is that of the baby.

“Born of water and the spirit” ... setting aside the exact meaning of “water” and the exact meaning of “spirit”, we know from places like John 3:3, John 3:6 and John 3:7 that this is a spiritual rebirth that Jesus is referring and not our physical birth from our mother’s womb that saves us.

“cannot enter into the kingdom of God” ... tells us that this second birth results in salvation. No Christian believes that they save themselves, so whatever your beliefs about the details of salvation, it is God (Father, Son and Spirit) that saves us.

THEREFORE (the part where I get to the point), GOD gives birth in the second birth. God takes the role of the mother in the analogy and we take the role of the baby. Now, here is what I originally said:

What did you do to help with your natural birth?
Then why do you think that God needs your help with your spiritual birth?

My point was that since your mother did all of the work in your physical birth and you (the baby) were just a passenger along for the ride, SO TOO IN YOUR SECOND BIRTH God (as the “mother”) does all of the work and requires no more assistance from the “baby” (that would be us) than was required in the first birth.

My comment has NOTHING to do with the meaning of water in John 3:5 or ‘sac fluid’.
It was about the imagery in the biblical word picture of birth.

 

[Willie T]

So we established that for our natural birth, our mother gave birth to us without any necessary effort by us or anyone else. Someone may have helped her give birth, but the mother is the one who gave birth and she was going to give birth with or without any outside assistance. In any case, the baby being born provided no assistance in their birth ... they were just pushed along for the ride whether they wanted it or not.

• [John 3:5 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“unless one is born” ... in this analogy, we are the one being born, so our role in this ‘second birth’ is that of the baby.

“Born of water and the spirit” ... setting aside the exact meaning of “water” and the exact meaning of “spirit”, we know from places like John 3:3, John 3:6 and John 3:7 that this is a spiritual rebirth that Jesus is referring and not our physical birth from our mother’s womb that saves us.

“cannot enter into the kingdom of God” ... tells us that this second birth results in salvation. No Christian believes that they save themselves, so whatever your beliefs about the details of salvation, it is God (Father, Son and Spirit) that saves us.

THEREFORE (the part where I get to the point), GOD gives birth in the second birth. God takes the role of the mother in the analogy and we take the role of the baby. Now, here is what I originally said:



My point was that since your mother did all of the work in your physical birth and you (the baby) were just a passenger along for the ride, SO TOO IN YOUR SECOND BIRTH God (as the “mother”) does all of the work and requires no more assistance from the “baby” (that would be us) than was required in the first birth.

My comment has NOTHING to do with the meaning of water in John 3:5 or ‘sac fluid’.
It was about the imagery in the biblical word picture of birth.

Does a baby agree to be born? I think each of us asked very specifically to become a part of God's kingdom. Are you saying you will become a Christian, whether you want to, or not?

 

[atpollard]

Does a baby agree to be born? I think each of us asked very specifically to become a part of God's kingdom.

I was working hard to avoid all of the controversial tangents associated with John 3:5 and to just explain that my comment:

What did you do to help with your natural birth?
Then why do you think that God needs your help with your spiritual birth?

Had nothing to do with the “water” of John 3:5 or of the amniotic fluid.

Are you saying you will become a Christian, whether you want to, or not?

You have asked a direct question, it deserves a direct answer. I had not gone that far with pressing the birth analogy in the conversation thus far. I was content to assert that salvation is not the result of our efforts any more than birth is the result of our efforts.

However, I believe from scripture, and more importantly for me, from the empirical evidence of my own salvation, that what you have described is exactly the case. God chose Moses to go to Pharaoh. Moses did not WANT to go to Pharaoh. Moses went to Pharaoh. God wanted Jonah to go to Nineveh. Jonah did not WANT to go to Nineveh. Jonah went to Nineveh. Saul WANTED to kill the Christians. God wanted Saul to be His Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was God’s Apostle to the Gentiles. I see the pattern repeated over and over in scripture.

I was raised atheist and chose to embrace Nihilism. I had made peace with my imminent death. God chose me and snatched me from my path as surely as He snatched Saul on the road to Damascus. I did not choose God. God chose me.

So YES, for some ... “you will become a Christian, whether you want to, or not”!
Of course, once you encounter Jesus on the road to Damascus, your “or not” will be transformed into a “want to”.

Just for fun ...
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him ...” [John 6:44]
"My Father, who has given them to Me ...” [John 10:29]


“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.” [Romans 9:21-24]

 

[Ezra]

“Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.” [Romans 9:21-24]

are you reformed theology? the reason i ask after reading your replies

So YES, for some ... “you will become a Christian, whether you want to, or not”!

i am very familiar in this doctrine.. while i cant say as i agree. but to each there ow,, at least your not defending water salvation

 

[atpollard]

are you reformed theology? the reason i ask after reading your replies i am very familiar in this doctrine.. while i cant say as i agree. but to each there own, at least your not defending water salvation

Yes and No. I am a Particular Baptist (also known as a Reformed Baptist) so I believe in the 5 points of Calvinism for how God saves (sotierolgy), but I also believe in the Baptist “Believer’s Baptism” (credobaptism). Someone from a traditional “Reformed” background, like a Presbyterian, would believe all of the doctrines in the WCF (Westminster Confession of Faith) which includes things like Infant Baptisms and a specific view of the end times and the “millennial kingdom”. I just believe that God does all of the saving without needing our help or permission, and Baptism should be for people after they confess and believe (Romans 10:9-10).

I also believe that Christians have a right to be wrong in their beliefs about that and we Particular Baptists will just tell you all “We told you so.” when we meet in the clouds and Jesus explains that we were right. :)

 

[Ezra]

. I just believe that God does all of the saving without needing our help or permission, and Baptism should be for people after they confess and believe (Romans 10:9-10).

I also believe that Christians have a right to be wrong in their beliefs about that and we Particular Baptists will just tell you all “We told you so.” when we meet in the clouds and Jesus explains that we were right. :)

No doubt HE does not need our help i have seen that i call it a miscarriage at the altar. the spirit draws us my self i am very much a free will believer

Particular Baptist

that is first one for me.. when get up to heaven there will be no right or wrongs or name tags. which will either fall off going up or burn off going down.. there are some things with reformed i agree some i dont ..i posted in carm --very much calvinist ..i been called false teacher so many times i lost count . when:) the end comes the only thing that will matter is our name is written in the lambs book of life ;)

 

[CNKW3]

So we established that for our natural birth, our mother gave birth to us without any necessary effort by us or anyone else. Someone may have helped her give birth, but the mother is the one who gave birth and she was going to give birth with or without any outside assistance. In any case, the baby being born provided no assistance in their birth ... they were just pushed along for the ride whether they wanted it or not.

• [John 3:5 NASB] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

“unless one is born” ... in this analogy, we are the one being born, so our role in this ‘second birth’ is that of the baby.

“Born of water and the spirit” ... setting aside the exact meaning of “water” and the exact meaning of “spirit”, we know from places like John 3:3, John 3:6 and John 3:7 that this is a spiritual rebirth that Jesus is referring and not our physical birth from our mother’s womb that saves us.

“cannot enter into the kingdom of God” ... tells us that this second birth results in salvation. No Christian believes that they save themselves, so whatever your beliefs about the details of salvation, it is God (Father, Son and Spirit) that saves us.

THEREFORE (the part where I get to the point), GOD gives birth in the second birth. God takes the role of the mother in the analogy and we take the role of the baby. Now, here is what I originally said:



My point was that since your mother did all of the work in your physical birth and you (the baby) were just a passenger along for the ride, SO TOO IN YOUR SECOND BIRTH God (as the “mother”) does all of the work and requires no more assistance from the “baby” (that would be us) than was required in the first birth.

My comment has NOTHING to do with the meaning of water in John 3:5 or ‘sac fluid’.
It was about the imagery in the biblical word picture of birth.

I don’t much care for the analogy because we didn’t have a choice to be born. We have a choice to be born a second time.
“God saves”? I agree. But HOW DOES HE DO IT? Through obedience to the gospel. Man has a role in the second birth we had Zero role in the first. That’s why it doesn’t work..
The OP still stands....nobody was ever saved by themselves. You can’t show me one example. All the examples we do see have another person always involved.
Acts 2,8,9,10,16,18,19
All of those chapters have examples of exactly HOW God saves man today under the new covenant. They all include man acting through obedience in order to have their sins forgiven.

 

[atpollard]

I don’t much care for the analogy because we didn’t have a choice to be born. We have a choice to be born a second time.

My goal was to explain my misunderstood comment. I believe that goal was achieved. I had no expectation to change your mind.

Obviously, we disagree.
That’s why Ice Cream comes in so many flavors.

God Bless.

 

[CNKW3]

My goal was to explain my misunderstood comment. I believe that goal was achieved. I had no expectation to change your mind.

Obviously, we disagree.
That’s why Ice Cream comes in so many flavors.

God Bless.

One of us is wrong. And that matters. Ice cream doesn’t.

 

[Ezra]

One of us is wrong. And that matters. Ice cream doesn’t.

and your being annoying and starting to not matter he was being respectful you sir are rude

 

[CNKW3]

and your being annoying and starting to not matter he was being respectful you sir are rude

So you believe in choice. He’s a straight Calvinist. You guys are patting each other on the back and you think that is unity? One of you is wrong. That should concern you more then being pen pals. I’m doing the most loving and respectful thing I know to do for him and you..Tell you and him your wrong and show you truth.

 

[atpollard]

One of us is wrong. And that matters. Ice cream doesn’t.

How does it matter?

You are either far more important than I am, or you have a much higher opinion of yourself than is prudent. So far, God has not asked for my input on any of His important decisions. Actually, I am not sure he has taken any of my unsolicited opinions on unimportant decisions into consideration. One thing I am confident of, is the fact that God will save whom He will save irrespective of whether I correctly or incorrectly understand how and why He does it.

Do your opinions have the power to Save or Damn anyone?
If not, then why do they ultimately matter more than Ice Cream?

 

[Ezra]

So you believe in choice. He’s a straight Calvinist. You guys are patting each other on the back and you think that is unity? One of you is wrong. That should concern you more then being pen pals. I’m doing the most loving and respectful thing I know to do for him and you..Tell you and him your wrong and show you truth.

LET me help you understand something if that is possible !!!i know he is calvinist no i don't agree with the calvinist doctrine on not having free will. did you notice how we exchanged our posting ? respectful had he came at me guns blazing telling me he was the only one right . then things would been different.
let me help you out again there are those in here that believes the pentecostal doctrine... see i can't change them and they can change me.
one last lesson in unity that you fail badly

john 17

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

might i also note he doesn't cling to water baptism salvation those that are truly saved are the Body of Christ which has many members. so stop your pity party .i have pentecostal friends i even have a independent fundamentalist baptist buddy.. i even went to his church the june 20 . i am nondenom but ordained GEN baptist minister

 

[Ezra]

You guys are patting each other on the back and you think that is unity?

does this bother you? it doesnt me

 

[atpollard]

So you believe in choice. He’s a straight Calvinist. You guys are patting each other on the back and you think that is unity? One of you is wrong. That should concern you more then being pen pals. I’m doing the most loving and respectful thing I know to do for him and you..Tell you and him your wrong and show you truth.

I like stories, so here is a work of complete fiction ...

John was sitting in the First Methodist Church one day, enjoying the organ music and thinking about the community Clothing Drive coming up this weekend. Being a solid Wesleyan Church they stressed the importance of spiritual discipline and personal Holiness ... taking very seriously the command to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” and the two sided Great Commandments to Love God and Love your neighbor. During the uplifting sermon, a certain passage gripped John by the heart.

• “How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" [Rom 10:14-15]

John cannot shake the feeling that God was speaking those words directly to him. Motivated that he must do something, John talks to his neighbor Bob all about his Church and the sermon and the words that he can’t get out of his mind. After several hours of just talking, and a couple or three glasses of Southern Sweet Sun Tea, John finally explains to Bob that God said “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved, because by believing you are made right with God, and by confessing you are saved.” [Rom 10:9-10]

Bob is flabbergasted. The words pierced his heart [Acts 2:37]. Suddenly Bob cried out “What do I need to do?” [Acts 2:37]

“Just repent of your sins and turn to God. Then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” [Act 2:38] said John with a smile.

“That will square things between me and God?” asked Bob.

“Yup.” said John. “Not only will it square things, but then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” [Act 2:38]

So Bob repented and trusted in God right then and there. He was Baptized that Sunday at the First Methodist Church. They wanted to wait until he had finished the ‘Baptism’ class, but Bob was so excited and so insistent on not waiting another week and being baptized right away, that the Pastor sat down with him and went through the entire class that Saturday so Bob could be baptized on Sunday.

So the Holy Spirit did come to Bob and was his teacher to guide Bob into all the truth [John 16:13] just like John and the Bible said he would. Bob spent years as a happy, growing and productive Christian. His family noted the change, Bob’s increase in the Fruit of the Spirit, and in his walk with God and love for the Body of Christ, everyone commented that Bob was a workman that need not be ashamed. [2 Tim 2:15].

All through this, Bob was grateful to God for sending John. Bob was grateful to John for sharing the gospel. Bob was humbled that God would invite him into the family and relieved that he said ‘yes’ rather than ‘no’.

One day Bob was reading his Bible and came across the information that his salvation did not begin with Bob saying ‘yes’. It did not begin with John deciding to share the gospel. It did not even begin with the sermon at the First Methodist Church that touched John’s heart.

Bob read in his Bible that everything was worked out according to God’s purpose [Rom 8:28]. God FOREKNEW, like from eternity, and God PREDESTINED, like a sure thing, and God CALLED, using John and the First Methodist Church, and God JUSTIFIED ... and even the end is part of God’s purpose, because God GLORIFIED ... Bob [Rom 8:29-30].

Bob was stunned. All this time, Bob thought that he had chosen to say ‘yes’ to God, when in reality, God had said ‘yes’ to Bob before Bob was even born. Bob felt humbled and grateful and even more in awe of just how ‘Sovereign’ God really was.

*********

My question is a simple one. Is Bob any more or less saved believing that Bob chose God or that God chose Bob? Is God in any way, shape or form limited in His ability to save by ANYTHING that Bob understands correctly or incorrectly?

I don’t think that our OPINIONS have any impact on God’s SOVEREIGNTY.

 

[Ezra]

watch this testimony

no water baptism

 

[atpollard]

watch this testimony
no water baptism

I am not quite sure why NO WATER baptisms are such a big deal for you, but I have a funny personal story that you might like.

So I was a criminal atheist that encountered the gospel from a group of lay Christians at a Friday night Catholic Charismatic Fellowship meeting (and left suspecting that those people needed their meds adjusted). Then God knocked me to my knees (literally) and made me an offer that I couldn’t refuse. I started reading the New Testament and just skipped over anything that I didn’t understand figuring that God would either explain it later, or I would just ask Jesus when I saw him. I took a shot at joining the Catholic Church where the Charismatics met and happened to be reading in the Gospels about “your mother and brothers are here” ... which was something that was not hard to understand ... at about the same time as the Church was preparing for the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. I may be a thug, but I am not an idiot. I know where brothers come from and that poses a problem with the term ‘virgin’. So I asked to talk with a priest and they explained the party line about Joseph’s other children and Mary’s perpetual virginity. It all made sense so I wanted to know where I could read about this in the Bible because I hadn’t gotten to that part yet. That was when they explained about ‘Church Tradition’ being equal to Scripture. After chewing on it for a little while, I decided that I was never going to be able to affirm that I believed what that church believed, so I couldn’t become a Catholic.

Off I went to college, then a job in another state. Finally I wound up in a little “Church of God of Anderson, Indiana” Church in Florida. About 15 years after I had been saved by God, I was sitting at a baptism service when I mentioned in passing that I had never actually been baptized because I was not saved in a church and didn’t attend a regular church for the first ten years of my Christian life (just different Small Groups at multiple Colleges). They were shocked and far more concerned than I was. I figured that the fact that I didn’t set my enemies on fire any more probably was a good indicator that God had already done SOMETHING in my heart.

Since I had a much better understanding of scripture by then, I had no particular objection to baptism. God had saved me without it, but he did command it, so when an opportunity came along, why not be obedient.

So I thought that you might enjoy the fact that I got saved without a church or baptism (just Christians and God) and waited 15 years to finally get dunked.

 

[farouk]

I am not quite sure why NO WATER baptisms are such a big deal for you, but I have a funny personal story that you might like.

So I was a criminal atheist that encountered the gospel from a group of lay Christians at a Friday night Catholic Charismatic Fellowship meeting (and left suspecting that those people needed their meds adjusted). Then God knocked me to my knees (literally) and made me an offer that I couldn’t refuse. I started reading the New Testament and just skipped over anything that I didn’t understand figuring that God would either explain it later, or I would just ask Jesus when I saw him. I took a shot at joining the Catholic Church where the Charismatics met and happened to be reading in the Gospels about “your mother and brothers are here” ... which was something that was not hard to understand ... at about the same time as the Church was preparing for the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin. I may be a thug, but I am not an idiot. I know where brothers come from and that poses a problem with the term ‘virgin’. So I asked to talk with a priest and they explained the party line about Joseph’s other children and Mary’s perpetual virginity. It all made sense so I wanted to know where I could read about this in the Bible because I hadn’t gotten to that part yet. That was when they explained about ‘Church Tradition’ being equal to Scripture. After chewing on it for a little while, I decided that I was never going to be able to affirm that I believed what that church believed, so I couldn’t become a Catholic.

Off I went to college, then a job in another state. Finally I wound up in a little “Church of God of Anderson, Indiana” Church in Florida. About 15 years after I had been saved by God, I was sitting at a baptism service when I mentioned in passing that I had never actually been baptized because I was not saved in a church and didn’t attend a regular church for the first ten years of my Christian life (just different Small Groups at multiple Colleges). They were shocked and far more concerned than I was. I figured that the fact that I didn’t set my enemies on fire any more probably was a good indicator that God had already done SOMETHING in my heart.

Since I had a much better understanding of scripture by then, I had no particular objection to baptism. God had saved me without it, but he did command it, so when an opportunity came along, why not be obedient.

So I thought that you might enjoy the fact that I got saved without a church or baptism (just Christians and God) and waited 15 years to finally get dunked.

Acts 2.41...albeit delayed action...:)

 

[CNKW3]

Bob is flabbergasted. The words pierced his heart [Acts 2:37]. Suddenly Bob cried out “What do I need to do?” [Acts 2:37]

“Just repent of your sins and turn to God. Then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.” [Act 2:38] said John with a smile.

At what point was his sins removed? You will know exactly when he was “saved”. The Bible is very plain about that. One is not saved until his sins have been forgiven.

 

[Ezra]

So I thought that you might enjoy the fact that I got saved without a church or baptism (just Christians and God) and waited 15 years to finally get dunked.

upto this point we was lined up a ok.. so let me share this i never said one had to be in church to be saved !!! water baptism follows salvation no amount of any water has ever saved anyone..it's by grace through faith . at some point and time you had to say yes to God.